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How do you guys play a Paladin?

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Comments

  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    The Paladin source book had a few things for certain other gods and even a couple of racial kits. Certain ones were not always tied to lawful good but they were still god based for the most part. Mazzy in BG2 is technically one of these kits. But because of the class coding in the game they made her a warrior with a couple special benefits instead.

    That is why some, including myself, include Mazzy when they are listing paladins. Because it's BG's Game structure and not PnP structure that she is classified as a fighter and not a Paladin. She's the best Paladin example in the series by a lot of opinions.
    ThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,523
    @fateless Truesword of Arvoreen if I recall.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    edited July 11
    In FRs, I think Paladins of Hoar, god of vengeance, are pretty interesting, but I'm mostly a traditionalist that respects a right proper stick-up-the-butt Paladin that won't knowingly associate with evil. They are hard to play, and can ruin a DnD groups enjoyment, but I relate to such people. This is why I have 0 friends probably. :/

    I think Helm is actually a very interesting patron, with his emphasis on order leading towards the greater good. Helm only has 1 soft spot I know of, thats children. I respect that.

    That said, a Paladin of Sune that specializes in redeeming Erinyes and Succubi is about the most entertaining Paladin I can think of. ;)

    Iirc, in 3rd ed you are required to satisfy the precepts of both the Paladin class and your Patron deity 100% of the time. If they ever truly conflict, you fall, since failing either results in falling. Thus Hoar is a really tough patron to have, as is Helm.
    Post edited by DreadKhan on
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    ThacoBell said:

    @fateless Truesword of Avoreen if I recall.

    Yes. that is the specific name of her Paladin kit. True Swords were actually pretty interesting Paladin's.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    DreadKhan said:

    Iirc, in 3rd ed you are required to satisfy the precepts of both the Paladin class and your Patron deity 100% of the time. If they ever truly conflict, you fall, since failing either results in falling. Thus Hoar is a really tough patron to have, as is Helm.

    It's possible there's some FR-specific rules I'm not aware of, but in base 3E, I don't think this is accurate. Allow me to corroborate with quotes from the 3.5E Player's Handbook.
    PHB p.43 said:

    Religion: A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity--devotion to righteousness is enough.

    PHB p.44 said:

    Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

    Note that this is the entirety of the Code of Conduct section (there's an additional section on who the paladin can associate with, but this section also doesn't mention religion either). So I don't actually think there's any 3E requirement to pay any attention whatsoever to your patron deity, except insofar as the paladin must respect legitimate authority, which presumably includes the gods.
    johntylThacoBell
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    Jarrakul said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Iirc, in 3rd ed you are required to satisfy the precepts of both the Paladin class and your Patron deity 100% of the time. If they ever truly conflict, you fall, since failing either results in falling. Thus Hoar is a really tough patron to have, as is Helm.

    It's possible there's some FR-specific rules I'm not aware of, but in base 3E, I don't think this is accurate. Allow me to corroborate with quotes from the 3.5E Player's Handbook.
    PHB p.43 said:

    Religion: A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity--devotion to righteousness is enough.

    PHB p.44 said:

    Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

    Note that this is the entirety of the Code of Conduct section (there's an additional section on who the paladin can associate with, but this section also doesn't mention religion either). So I don't actually think there's any 3E requirement to pay any attention whatsoever to your patron deity, except insofar as the paladin must respect legitimate authority, which presumably includes the gods.
    But wouldn't it make sense that you have to devote yourself to your deity since you actually draw your powers from him/her?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    I didn't say 3.x said you need to have a patron, its common knowledge that in Greyhawk divine casters can serve a 'cause', and Paladins usually do for the reason above. In 3rd if you are a divine caster, you lose your magic if you fall away from your patron, and in Forgotten Realms all divine casters must be drawing their power from a God.
    johntyl
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    @DreadKhan Again, it's possible there's some FR-specific rule that I'm not familiar with (I can't find my FR campaign setting book, and Faiths and Pantheons doesn't seem to say anything definitive on the subject), but as far as I can find, the Player's Handbook rules for divine magic don't say anything about losing your spells if you don't follow the rules your deity sets out. Clerics suffer from this, as outlined on page 33 under Ex-Clerics, but this appears to be class-specific, not a general trait of 3E divine spellcasters. Notably, the Ex-Paladins text includes no such clause for becoming an ex-paladin. If you have a citation to the contrary, by all means post it and prove me wrong.
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    @Jarrakul

    Lore and whatever rules aside, doesn't it make sense that spellcasters will lose their magic/spells if they don't follow their deities? I can't imagine Helm not interfering if his followers do not follow his dictated path.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    It does make sense, if paladins get their power through devotion to a specific god. I would argue that the rules imply otherwise. Their magic is still divine in nature, but perhaps it comes from the upper planes in general, or from whatever god happens to hear their prayers at the moment? Perhaps the good/lawful deities reached some accord long ago by which they all agree to funnel power to paladins regardless of said paladin's devotion to a specific deity? I couldn't say what was intended, from a lore perspective. I can only try to infer from what the mechanics tell us, and there is no mechanic I'm aware of that compels a paladin to obey the tenants of their chosen religion any further than they would normally choose to, much less cause them to fall if those tenants came into conflict with the paladin's code.
    ThacoBelljohntyl
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    Jarrakul said:

    It does make sense, if paladins get their power through devotion to a specific god. I would argue that the rules imply otherwise. Their magic is still divine in nature, but perhaps it comes from the upper planes in general, or from whatever god happens to hear their prayers at the moment? Perhaps the good/lawful deities reached some accord long ago by which they all agree to funnel power to paladins regardless of said paladin's devotion to a specific deity? I couldn't say what was intended, from a lore perspective. I can only try to infer from what the mechanics tell us, and there is no mechanic I'm aware of that compels a paladin to obey the tenants of their chosen religion any further than they would normally choose to, much less cause them to fall if those tenants came into conflict with the paladin's code.

    What you pointed out is definitely interesting but therein lies many inherent potential contradictions no? For one, we do know that magic comes from the Weave which is only accessible by Faerûnians through deities - correct me if I'm wrong, or through Primordials (elemental creatures). So if an amateur divine spellcaster seeks to learn divine spells, his only way to gather access to magic (the Weave) is through firstly the intervention of his deity which he has devoted to. There must be some kind of pact between follower and deity. And if that pact is somewhat tarnished or broken, so should the access to the Weave.
    Jarrakul said:


    "Their magic is still divine in nature, but perhaps it comes from the upper planes in general, or from whatever god happens to hear their prayers at the moment? Perhaps the good/lawful deities reached some accord long ago by which they all agree to funnel power to paladins regardless of said paladin's devotion to a specific deity?"

    This seems too good to be true. It seems to encourage flippant and indifferent worshipping because "hey, I don't need to stay devoted to one deity and I can always draw my powers from elsewhere", which in FR lore is antagonistic to deities as they ALSO derive their powers/influence from the numbers of worshippers.
    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,426
    In Forgotten Realms lore, deities wax and wane in power according to their number of worshipers. A deity with too few worshipers will weaken and finally die, as happened to Amaunator. Thus, deities have a vested interest in keeping as many worshipers as possible praying to them and following the precepts of their portfolios. They will thus be very jealous of each other's worshipers. In this particular setting, it makes no sense for a cleric or paladin to worship any god other than their own, Pay respects to allied deities, yes, but not worship. Spells and special paladin abilites come directly from their god as a reward for their dedication. Failing that god would most certainly lead to the loss of spells and abilities.

    Later editions changed up these rules and the lore, which is why I don't like them. But in BG, we are using a second edition setting, and in Neverwinter Nights, (not to mention the Order of the Stick comic), we are using a third edition setting.

    Anyone can house-rule in anything they want, but I think the more one does that, the more diluted, less interesting, and less internally consistent the story setting for the games becomes.
    johntyllelag200
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382


    Later editions changed up these rules and the lore, which is why I don't like them. But in BG, we are using a second edition setting, and in Neverwinter Nights, (not to mention the Order of the Stick comic), we are using a third edition setting.

    Do you which edition onwards when the rules and lore change? And what do they change into?
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    Again, I can't really comment on what makes sense for the Forgotten Realms. I have opinions there (which, frankly, are in line with others in this thread), but my opinions have no authority, and it wouldn't be the first time a worldbuilder made a decision I felt was inconsistent with their other lore.

    What I can comment on is what the rules say. And the rules say a paladin is under no obligation to follow the rules of any specific deity. There is a specific requirement spelled out for clerics, but not for paladins.
    thespace
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    edited July 13
    Greyhawk is the standard setting for 3.x, and in Greyhawk I could cast epic cleric spells powered solely by my faith in my chamber-pot. FR has different restrictions on divine magic, because everyone is supposed to worship a God. Divine casters get power only from the Gods. I'll look up where its stated, but the core books obviously don't care about devotion to a patron.

    Edit: Page 23 of the Campaign Setting states unequivocally that "It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one.", the 'one' being a patron deity. On page 25 it is stated also that "all paladins of Faerun are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins." Putting the two together, it would be clear that a Paladin that grossly disappoints his patron deity would lose powers, since the deity is the sole source of said powers. I'm not sure if it's stated more clearly elsewhere or not, I'll keep an eye out for it if I start looking through my inane 3.x collection again.
    Post edited by DreadKhan on
    Jarrakuljohntyl
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    Ah, fair enough. So there was something in the campaign setting book after all.

    That said, while that text does strongly imply that a paladin would lose their powers for ticking off their god, it doesn't necessarily imply that the paladin's adherence to their deity's rules must be as strict as to the paladin's code. I suppose that would be up to the deity in question. Some of them are probably more lenient than others. For example, I can't imagine Helm tolerates much disobedience, but Ilmater probably doesn't mind so much as long as you do some penance afterwards.

    It also doesn't rule out that a paladin could stroll over to the temple next door and get a new patron, without need for an atonement spell, since having a patron isn't described as synonymous with falling (just as having many of the same mechanical effects). Which I guess makes sense? It'd be pretty weird, but there's not a lot about religion in FR that isn't weird.
    DreadKhanjohntyl
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    I haven't read recently about how patron changing goes, but it's not supposed to be too terrible in 3.x to do things like changing patrons... BUT, the official stance is that changing patrons too often will result in being Faithless, which is very, very bad in Forgotten Realms, and would basically mean if you change for superficial reasons it will go badly. But I doubt you'd need to do more than atone to switch patrons, provided the Paladin is wholehearted in his conversion unless you have a very harsh DM, and atonement is usually seen as a way to prod the adventurer's to an adventure they'd never otherwise take up! ;)

    I think you have a point that it's technically up to the deity to an extent (and thus, up to the DM)... that said, I'd think if you go against the precepts of your deity, IE if you are a Paladin of Hoar and refuse to take revenge, you might fall. That's why I think Hoar would be a very, very hard patron for a Paladin, but a very interesting one. Helm's strictness would be difficult too, so choosing him would be like choosing a disadvantage.

    Ilmater is an interesting option, but I'd point out he's excessively merciful, and would perhaps be the easiest to tick off if you're an active Paladin, since he's one of the more pacifistic deities of Faerun. He would probably require a Paladin to at least try turning the other cheek, which as we all know in practice is basically suicide.
    johntylJarrakul
  • Xar105Xar105 Member Posts: 97
    edited July 14
    Paladin of Ilmater = Christianity in plate armor. And i don`t mean Crusaders. But i think it`s not bad if you get hit in cheek when you have helm of protection +3 (+1 vs evil characters) on your head.
    johntylJarrakul
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    DreadKhan said:


    Edit: Page 23 of the Campaign Setting states unequivocally that "It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one.", the 'one' being a patron deity. On page 25 it is stated also that "all paladins of Faerun are devoted to a patron deity, chosen at the start of their career as paladins." Putting the two together, it would be clear that a Paladin that grossly disappoints his patron deity would lose powers, since the deity is the sole source of said powers. I'm not sure if it's stated more clearly elsewhere or not, I'll keep an eye out for it if I start looking through my inane 3.x collection again.

    Thank you for this! That clarifies many things.
    DreadKhan
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    DreadKhan said:

    if you are a Paladin of Hoar and refuse to take revenge, you might fall. That's why I think Hoar would be a very, very hard patron for a Paladin, but a very interesting one.

    Agreed. If Irenicus were to be a Paladin, he's definitely a Paladin of Hoar :smiley:
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    Xar105 said:

    Paladin of Ilmater = Christianity in plate armor. And i don`t mean Crusaders. But i think it`s not bad if you get hit in cheek when you have helm of protection +3 (+1 vs evil characters) on your head.

    Ilmater does resemble Jesus you are right.
  • Xar105Xar105 Member Posts: 97
    edited July 14
    johntyl said:

    Xar105 said:

    Paladin of Ilmater = Christianity in plate armor. And i don`t mean Crusaders. But i think it`s not bad if you get hit in cheek when you have helm of protection +3 (+1 vs evil characters) on your head.

    Ilmater does resemble Jesus you are right.
    That`s why i think paladin of Ilmater will be easy to RP.

    But so far what you think about Charname as a Paladin from this topic ?. I bit two times as Cavalier and i must say, for me that fit very well for RP. Inqiusitor or Undead Hunter are "specialists" in they job, but Cavalier as a noble and good person is fine. Charname hear many stores about honorable and noble paladins and cavaliers, so he want be like them.

    And why charname can`t be a paladin of Baala ? god of murder, that looks crazy but hey ! :smiley: .
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,691
    I would play one with extreme difficulty and haven't yet, TBH. ;) He would probably fall right out the gate. A blackguard perhaps if I head canoned the right otherworldly being/deity. B)

    I will say it would be interesting to start as one, fall at some point, and have the option to switch to a blackguard, instead of remaining fallen (but I suppose that's what EEKeeper is for).
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,523
    @DreadKhan There is an npc mod that has a Paladin of Ilmater. Pretty interesting and well written too. The kit gets special abilites that damages/debuffs the paladin to give a party member an equivalent bonus.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 1,983
    Ilmater is a merciful god, but he's still up for laying a holy beatdown on those who harm the innocent and the defenseless, especially children. Seriously, you hurt a kid, Ilmater will hurt you back. Ideally with subdual damage and plenty of opportunity for surrender, because he does believe in redemption, but sadly Baldur's Gate doesn't give us those options.

    All in all, there's a reason he's one of the Triad, the three main paladin deities. Even if he's definitely the least warlike among them, his holy warriors still have their work cut out for them.
    ThacoBellBalrog99
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    Xar105 said:

    But so far what you think about Charname as a Paladin from this topic ?. I bit two times as Cavalier and i must say, for me that fit very well for RP. Inqiusitor or Undead Hunter are "specialists" in they job, but Cavalier as a noble and good person is fine. Charname hear many stores about honorable and noble paladins and cavaliers, so he want be like them.

    Have never played a Paladin b4 and I'm kinda looking forward to it with regard to its RP. For my Charname, the reason for his path towards paladinhood in the first place was actually an indirect consequence of Gorion and the Harper's machinations, no matter their good intentions, to counteract the inherent evil within Charname. So it would be interesting to see Charname struggle between his faith and the growing darkness in him.
    ThacoBellXar105
  • johntyljohntyl Member Posts: 382
    Jarrakul said:

    All in all, there's a reason he's one of the Triad, the three main paladin deities. Even if he's definitely the least warlike among them, his holy warriors still have their work cut out for them.

    Mercy to whomever thinks a follower of Ilmater is a pushover:
    " In the case of extreme torture or associated murder, Ilmater granted the possessed being the ability to cast destructive spells, such as flame strike, lightning bolt or chain lightning, meteor swarm, sink, or imprisonment for a short time in retribution"

    Meteor swarm, imprisonment?! Good grief!
    ThacoBell
  • fatelessfateless Member Posts: 330
    FR is not the only one setting that has been around that either requires belief in a god to be a paladin... States they are members of church structures. Or at least strongly implied that they are tied into them just to keep in mind. The PHB was only ever meant to provide detailed but basic information with the rest of that being added on by whatever place you were applying that information to whether it be FR or GreyHawk or whatever.

    In many that either strongly urge it or require it however. One advantage that they have is that their code of conduct is usually if not always derived from the precepts of their god. So you don't end up with a messy situation of betraying your god by holding to your code... Or breaking your code by keeping true to your god.

    As the editions have gone on the Alignment requirements have also eased up on Paladins as well. Making them mostly good rather than strictly lawful good. (with outliers and dark paladins/blackguards still being possible within certain framesets.)
    johntyl
  • toolargtoolarg Member Posts: 99
    Torm and Tyr are the usual choices for paladins, dutiful & militaristic. Other choices can be:
    -Ilmater is a god that takes on the martyrdom side of Christianity. If self sacrifice is your charname's thing then Ilmater is the god for him.
    -Lathander, if bravado and rashness in your duty to defeat evil fit your character, if your character is a young man rather than a grizzled veteran, Lathander is the one.
    Thats my take on it anyways.
    johntyl
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