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Cleric/Thief Mid SoA and Beyond

I started a cleric/thief in BGEE planning on doing a full run, but started thinking about how effective they would be later in the game. THACO seems a concern, then backstabbing becomes less effective, and they only have a couple of offensive spells. Besides casting Chaotic Commands and a few Holy Smites or Flamestrikes, can the be effective in combat or is THACO going to be an issue?

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023
    Clerics get enough buffs to boost thaco that it shouldn't an issue.
    GreenWarlock
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 182
    Even the rogue gets well under -0 thac0 with a good str bonus and weapon, and the clerk cs base of hac0 is much better.

    Your attacks per round are the real problem. You should have dual classed.
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,560
    edited July 12
    Thac0 is only 5 points behind warrior thac0 at worst (which means only 1 point behind when backstabbing), and you can easily make up for it with cleric buffs. And you get the same hit points as a fighter/mage (barring stupid cheesy familiars).

    Cleric/thieves are incredibly capable. The only real problem with them is having the thieving button off the main screen.
    GreenWarlockbob_veng
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761

    Thac0 is only 5 points behind warrior thac0 at worst (which means only 1 point behind when backstabbing)

    Where's that 5 point gap coming from? I though Clerics capped at 6 THACO (vs. 0 for warriors). And a C/T multi wouldn't be hitting that THACO cap until 6.3m experience, anyway, (basically the end-stages of ToB).
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,023

    Thac0 is only 5 points behind warrior thac0 at worst (which means only 1 point behind when backstabbing), and you can easily make up for it with cleric buffs. And you get the same hit points as a fighter/mage (barring stupid cheesy familiars).

    Cleric/thieves are incredibly capable. The only real problem with them is having the thieving button off the main screen.

    Luckily this can be fixed with hotkeys. I usually have thieving skill mapped to "z"
    ArctodusGreenWarlockAerakarOrlonKronsteen
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    ThacoBell said:

    Thac0 is only 5 points behind warrior thac0 at worst (which means only 1 point behind when backstabbing), and you can easily make up for it with cleric buffs. And you get the same hit points as a fighter/mage (barring stupid cheesy familiars).

    Cleric/thieves are incredibly capable. The only real problem with them is having the thieving button off the main screen.

    Luckily this can be fixed with hotkeys. I usually have thieving skill mapped to "z"
    Also, now that the UI is moddable, there are mods to create a permanent thieving button.
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/59735/permanent-thieving-button-whaaat#latest
    GreenWarlockAerakar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 7,560
    SomeSort said:

    Thac0 is only 5 points behind warrior thac0 at worst (which means only 1 point behind when backstabbing)

    Where's that 5 point gap coming from? I though Clerics capped at 6 THACO (vs. 0 for warriors). And a C/T multi wouldn't be hitting that THACO cap until 6.3m experience, anyway, (basically the end-stages of ToB).
    I thought fighter thac0 caps at 1 or 2? Whatever, the difference is minuscule. Again, compare to F/M and it's never that far behind. The main difference is APR, which you would make up in other ways. If you are tanking. Which you wouldn't be. But you CAN if you really need to, which demonstrates how adaptable this class is.
    Aerakar
  • shylamanshylaman Member Posts: 117
    I ran the EET UI mod to move the thieving button to the main bar. Why beamdog hasn't done that is beyond me.

    What about Helm Seeking Sword in the later game (assuming I EEKeep a kit)? 2D4 with three apr. I could DUHM, backstab, and then activate Seeking Sword to melee. Most cleric spells are pre-buff anyways. That should be 6-24 per round. Not too bad. Or am I missing something?
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 761
    edited July 13
    shylaman said:

    I ran the EET UI mod to move the thieving button to the main bar. Why beamdog hasn't done that is beyond me.

    What about Helm Seeking Sword in the later game (assuming I EEKeep a kit)? 2D4 with three apr. I could DUHM, backstab, and then activate Seeking Sword to melee. Most cleric spells are pre-buff anyways. That should be 6-24 per round. Not too bad. Or am I missing something?

    Seeking Sword is great in BG1, but the terrible base damage, (no bonus), means it deals awful damage in BG2, and disables your spellcasting to do it.

    You'd be better off running a Priest of Lathander for the Boon of Lathander. It boosts your APR by one, but it's usable with any weapon, and you'll usually deal more with 2 attacks from an awesome weapon like Flail of Ages than with 3 attacks from a weak weapon like Seeking Sword.

    Also, I believe it's unlisted, but Boon of Lathander stacks with itself. By level 21, if you're so inclined, you could activate all three of your Boons at once for 4 APR. Even at level 11, I'd rather burn both Boons to get 3 APR with a good weapon once per day than rely on Seeking Sword to get good APR with a bad weapon twice per day, (and disabling your spells while you're at it).
    Aerakar
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 153
    edited August 10
    Cleric/thieves can be solid party members, but you just need to go into it with a clear-eyed picture of what they can and can't do. Their low attacks per round give them terrible melee DPS and also make them terrible at inflicting on-hit weapons conditions (like slowing enemies with the flail of the ages). So if you're looking for sustained melee DPS, don't use a cleric/thief.

    However, cleric multiclasses are almost as good at supporting/buffing as singleclass clerics and also make very solid damage absorber/tank melee combatants. Cleric/thieves in particular have the extra advantage of combining two different "utility" roles (traps and restoration spells), which may give you some extra flexibility with the rest of the party.
    Post edited by jsaving on
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,393
    Viconia in BG2 is pretty impressive imho, competitive with anything you can make, despite lacking a kit, and Jan is an impressive addition to any party that doesn't mind his interjections, and his quest has loot.
    Aerakar
  • p4tep4te Member Posts: 2
    I played as Thief / Cleric DC. It's one of the best supporting classes. All you need is a Mage to your party and you are good to go: Imoen, Nalia or Edwin.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 1,725
    swash>cleric is good too and incredibly easy to play. he's pretty much the the same as a mid level fighter>cleric except a bit better and you have find traps.

    used one in iwd:ee and he had ~25% party kills, while the berserker had ~30%
    Aerakar
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 470
    @bob_veng, a thief that finds religion sounds fun to RP.
    OrlonKronsteen
  • Joan_DaroJoan_Daro Member Posts: 33
    Aerakar said:

    @bob_veng, a thief that finds religion sounds fun to RP.

    Perhaps it's just Mask.
    Aerakar
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 921
    Aerakar said:

    @bob_veng, a thief that finds religion sounds fun to RP.

    Sounds like a family reunion to me ...
    OrlonKronsteenAerakar
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 404

    Even the rogue gets well under -0 thac0 with a good str bonus and weapon, and the clerk cs base of hac0 is much better.

    Your attacks per round are the real problem. You should have dual classed.

    I... don't know of any cleric or thief kits that get any real APR from levels. Please advise.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,393
    Pokota said:

    Even the rogue gets well under -0 thac0 with a good str bonus and weapon, and the clerk cs base of hac0 is much better.

    Your attacks per round are the real problem. You should have dual classed.

    I... don't know of any cleric or thief kits that get any real APR from levels. Please advise.
    Clerics of Lathander and Helm get extra apr, and thieves can use speed weapons.
    Aerakar
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 153
    True, though clerics and thieves remain vastly worse than warriors or fighter/mages from an APR point of view...
    DreadKhanAerakar
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,393
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