Best Backstabber

cbarchuk

Trying to figure out what's going to be the best thief for a backstabber build. I'm torn between the single class thief, the assassin, and the multi-class fighter/thief. My issues so far:

Single class thief: Will level quick. Has plenty of thieving points but...can he even hit anything with his lousy THACO?

Assassin: Slightly better THACO than the pure thief but with less thieving points. Has poison which is a plus.

Fighter/Thief: Can have high strength, better proficiencies, better THACO, dual-wielding possible, can fight toe to toe. Only con here is much slower leveling. This is what I usually roll with in BG2. But I'm worried about the slower leveling.

What does everyone else think? Thanks.

Permidion_Stark

I haven't tried it myself but wouldn't dual-classing be the answer? Start out as a fighter, go to level 3 or 5 and then dual to a thief.

jankiel

An elf assassin using long swords could be an interesting pick no? Besides that he gets a bonus to bows from race and 19 dex, this combined with poison could make a pretty deadly combo. Decent backstabbing and nice support from distance. I think I know what race/class to try first. Just give me the game damn it I want to try this!

Mungri

Elf assassin. x7 multiplier, +1 bonus to hit, +1 bonus with longswords and other swords too because its glitched. 19 dex for a slight boost to thief abilities though they only get 15 points per level, and also another +1 to hit with bows.

Pantalion

Kensai 13 > Thief.

2 full attacks per round and 8 THAC0 from 13 levels of Fighter, +4 to hit and damage per hit from Kensai 12. -2 AC from Kensai, coupled with Use Any Item later on to make sure they can wear armour, gauntlets and headwear. And can Kai, meaning full damage on their hits four times a day.

Thief gives a full x5 backstab, and ends up as 13/39 getting almost the maximum possible out of the ToB cap.

Alternatively, an Assassin 21 -> Fighter, but with 3.5 million Exp worth of vanilla Fighter to get, probably better to go with the above.

Shin

As Pantalion says, Kensai/Thief has afaik generally been considered the best combination for this. Very good synergy, but it takes a long time before you can utilize it fully.

Mungri

Yea, I dont even think that an Assassin is much better than a Kensai > Thief. Grandmastery, Kai, 2 attacks per round, even an elf assassin is basically just a gimp wannabe kensai > thief and a far weaker archer combined together.

I still do believe that Assassins need to be buffed because their slight advantages arent really the best choice for a backstabber.

cbarchuk

I'm sorry I didn't specify this to begin with but I meant within BG only. Permidion I haven't tried a dual class. Maybe that's a better alternative though I would have to be human. I plan on only running through BG:EE. I'm going to wait till next summer to rock BG2.

AHF

Mungri said:

Yea, I dont even think that an Assassin is much better than a Kensai > Thief. Grandmastery, Kai, 2 attacks per round, even an elf assassin is basically just a gimp wannabe kensai > thief and a far weaker archer combined together.

How can anything be a weaker archer than a dual class Kensai? The Kensai can't use missile weapons until it is so late in the game that the Character would never choose to gimp himself by using missile weapons anyway.

I may have misunderstood this.

Personally, I agree that the F/T dual or multi-class is the more powerful way to go. The advantage for the multiclass is that there is little advantage to leveling up beyond level 20 in thief other than HLA and that is easily still hit as a multi-class. The fighter HLA's are nice for a backstabber to have against backstab immune opponents.

Mungri

Within BG only neither an assassin or a kensai / theif as there isnt enough EXP.

A half orc fighter / thief multiclass with 20 strength via tome of strength and grandmastery in quarterstaffs plus 2 points in 2 handed weapon style equipped with the Quarterstaff +3 and later on Staff of Striking will assassinate everything dead.

Bah, I forgot that grandmastery isnt possible on a multiclass without mods. So just 2 points in quarterstaffs, 2 weapon style, shortbows and whatever else you want.

AHF

Mungri said:

Within BG only neither an assassin or a kensai / theif as there isnt enough EXP.

A half orc fighter / thief multiclass with 20 strength via tome of strength and grandmastery in quarterstaffs plus 2 points in 2 handed weapon style equipped with the Quarterstaff +3 and later on Staff of Striking will assassinate everything dead.

Bah, I forgot that grandmastery isnt possible on a multiclass without mods. So just 2 points in quarterstaffs, 2 weapon style, shortbows and whatever else you want.

Good point. In addition to the "end game" difference in characters, you are right that the BG1 experience in particular is very different depending which route you go.

cbarchuk

Ooooo, a half-orc fighter/thief sounds pretty nasty. Do you think the slow leveling will be an issue in BG?

cbarchuk

I like the concept of the assassin but I just don't think the kit was implemented that well in BG2. Though the rogue rebalancing mod helps with this quite a bit.

Mungri

AHF said:

Mungri said:

Yea, I dont even think that an Assassin is much better than a Kensai > Thief. Grandmastery, Kai, 2 attacks per round, even an elf assassin is basically just a gimp wannabe kensai > thief and a far weaker archer combined together.

How can anything be a weaker archer than a dual class Kensai? The Kensai can't use missile weapons until it is so late in the game that the Character would never choose to gimp himself by using missile weapons anyway.

I may have misunderstood this.

I meant the 'Archer' kit. If you want to use bows, use an archer, if you want to melee / backstab use a Kensai / thief. The assassin does nothing better with its minor bonuses, its overall a completely weak kit compared to Kensais, Swashbucklers, and even Bounty Hunters which get some pretty nifty traps.

cbarchuk said:

Ooooo, a half-orc fighter/thief sounds pretty nasty. Do you think the slow leveling will be an issue in BG?

Dont think so. I'd definitely install the multiclass fighter grandmastery mod for this idea, and roll a 19 str / 18 dex / 18 con Horc Fighter / Thief, and stick 5 points into quarterstaffs and 2 points in 2 weapon fighting.

Another option is 7 kensai dualed to a thief, but then you wont be backstabbing until the very end of the game making it pointless for this purpose.

Weapons to use:

Quarterstaff +3 (1D6+3)
Staff Spear +2 (1D8+2)
Staff of Striking (uber damage with backstabs, limited charges, use it up on Aec'letec, Sarevok, even Drizzt. You will drop the first two dead in seconds).

You can easily carry it on into BG2 too with the Staff of Rynn +4, Staff of Striking and Staff of the Ram, but here a Kensai / Thief will be too much better. Oh, rod of smiting too to kill Golems fast.

ajwz

Saemon Havarian

Mungri

Hmmm, you know what, for a multiclass backstabber, a Cleric / Thief would also be great. DUHM, Righteous Magic, Champions Strength ... You basically get a fighter thaco and kai abilities along with a strength buff, but only for limited durations.

jankiel

And Cleric/Thief means Half-Orc right? Munchkin time.

bigdogchris

A pure Thief has a higher backstab multiplier, but their THAC0 is not great so you often miss. That's why I like using Fighter/Thief. You still get a backstab multiplier, though lower, but your THAC0 is much higher.

Oxford_Guy

Assassin would be better than a straight thief, but both have problems hitting anything later in the game

jankiel said:

And Cleric/Thief means Half-Orc right? Munchkin time.

Or a Gnome, but you can't start on Str 19

Oxford_Guy

cbarchuk said:

I like the concept of the assassin but I just don't think the kit was implemented that well in BG2. Though the rogue rebalancing mod helps with this quite a bit.

The Assassin kit is nerfed even more in the RR mod, no +1 THAC0 etc., weaker poison, though does gain some resistance to poison at higher levels, although have just noticed they increased the starting backstab modifier to x3 in the latest version

Mungri

I found that the rogue rebalanced mod made the kits even worse than they originally were. I dont use it beyond having checked it out some time ago.

Quartz

cbarchuk said:

Ooooo, a half-orc fighter/thief sounds pretty nasty. Do you think the slow leveling will be an issue in BG?

No, not really. It's BG1, everyone levels slow. The only annoying thing about Fighter/Thief is that regular Fighters are getting their extra 1/2 attack per round at 64k EXP, Paladins/Rangers at 75k, but you have to wait until you get 128k EXP overall. Hardly the end of the world, though.

awin123

For BG1 only, a half-orc fighter/thief multi is the best way to go. You might be able to pull off a low level kensai -> thief dual class but I doubt it would be worth worth it due to restrictive level cap.

Assassin is nice on paper but their thac0 progression is slow, they have low HP and bring nothing interesting to the table except their higher backstab multiplier and low use poison. The poison is useless at lower levels when most stuff dies in 1-2 hits, the backstab multiplier bonus doesn't apply until higher levels and you take a hit to thief points which means that the character is useless outside of having stealth, or you need to bring a LOT of invisibility potions .

A fighter/thief lets you specialize in weapons and weapon styles, start off with exceptional strength for non half orcs, benefit from higher constitution, become a lot more durable by using armor and shields if necessary, and equip longbows/heavy crossbows for ranged fights, plus you don't lose thief points due to being a kit.

sandmanCCL

For BG1 only:
A fighter 6/thief 9. Maximizes your fighter HP/Thac0 while still hitting x4 backstab multiplier.

Without meta-gaming:
Assassins end up with the largest modifier and therefore will hit for larger numbers on crits.

With a little bit of meta-gaming:
Kensai/Thief has a really high base damage and ability to inflict max damage on hit, but a raw assassin can still get larger numbers once he gets x6 and x7 backstabs.

Meta-gaming the hell out of the system:
Assassin 21/Cleric 32. This is THE level cap, mind you. But, you'll have x7 backstabs, the Staff of the Ram +6, and cleric steroids to maximize bonus damage/thac0/strength. I've seen screenshots of people doing 4 digit backstab crits utilizing this, the perfect equipment, buff spells, etc. Funny stuff.




Make sure to bring a Skald with you. Their bonus damage counts.

Mungri

Dualing from a 21 assassin means you won't be backstabbing for most of TOB lol. And that's purely a Tob thing only, not going to happen within BG1 + BG2 SOA.

Sikorsky

What you prefer for Kensai/Thief. Dual Wield or one handed weapon style? I think that in one handed you will get better damage, in dual wield more attacks. Am I right?

Quartz

Mungri said:

Dualing from a 21 assassin means you won't be backstabbing for most of TOB lol. And that's purely a Tob thing only, not going to happen within BG1 + BG2 SOA.

I'm with ya there. But he called it "Meta-gaming the hell out of the system" for a reason. =P

Oxford_Guy

IMHO if you want to be an effective backstabber without all the messiness of dual-classing, just be a fighter/thief and be done with it, although a buffed cleric/thief might be quite effective too.

FrozenCells

Mungri said:

I found that the rogue rebalanced mod made the kits even worse than they originally were. I dont use it beyond having checked it out some time ago.

Yeah sort of. The Assassin does get death attack and now x7 backstab at level 17 instead of 21 but poison is nerfed. I prefer it but the poison should be better at high levels more like the original. The Bounty Hunter combined with the HLA edits is much less cheesy but plays more fun IMO. Swashbuckler is better earlier on but then probably worse late game where THAC0 isn't as important. In any case, generally RRs versions are weaker, I agree.

Sikorsky said:

What you prefer for Kensai/Thief. Dual Wield or one handed weapon style? I think that in one handed you will get better damage, in dual wield more attacks. Am I right?

Get both. Single weapon is better for backstabbing and dual wielding is better for combat, so you equip 1 weapon for the backstab and then add the second weapon after it hits. If you have to pick just one, pick two weapon style. Kensai/thief's backstabs are really good anyway, plus a couple of the buffs on the second weapon can improve your stats and therefore backstab too.

Marric

I'd go with a half-orc Fighter/thief with 19 strength. Simply, straightforward and super powerful right out of the box.

cbarchuk

Yea I think the rogue rebalancing mod does a decent job with the assassin. At level 1 the kit has x3 backstab modifier which is pretty sweet and, as Frozen Cells mentioned, gets death attack which gives the assassin to chance to kill an opponent out right assuming the target fails its death save. At higher levels, the target takes a penalty to that save. With this ability, you don't need to be in stealth and you don't have to be behind the target and its an automatic crit. So its quite effective, especially against opponents that are immune to backstab. Heck, I even used it to one shot Thaxll'ssillyia, Nizidramanii'yt and Firkraag.