Doesn't Minsc act like a werewolf with his berserk? He is fine before transforming and a killing machine after. At least werewolves (from people infected and not natural WW) only change at the full moon.
His words when he berserk is "No dispell not, i will inspire you by charging blindy on!" does not really sound evil to me. Some other lines "Buttkicking for Goodness" Ah we are all heroes you and Boo and I, hamsters and rangers everywhere rejoice!" "Feel the backhand of Justice" "Jump on my sword while you can evil, i will not always be so gentle" etc etc. He is clearly goodhearted, just and like heroic stuff.
And why he attacks you when you not accept his quest to save Dynaheir, is a combination of desperation and stress, and probably a misinterpretation, that Minsc think you mock his proposal and clearly are not heroic enough, which make him mad.
Minsc has a heart of gold, and want to do heroics and just actions that is his good part. But he also got a short temper and low intelligence due to multiple blows to the head. hence the chaotic part.
@Jimstrom Thank you, that's about the best explanation I can think of. It's the argument I'd been trying to make but I'm terrible at explaining things.
Now Coran, i can see why some people would like to change his alignment to Chaotic Neutral, his actions is not good in the sense of abandoning his child, and clear out wyverns for money, however, when we take a look at his biography:
"When asked about his past, CORAN reveals that he hails from the Forest of Tethir, and while he has great memories of his time there, the serene lifestyle he felt it offered was ultimately not for him. Instead he traveled to the city of Baldur's Gate, dreaming of wealth, power, and respect.
With nary a coin to his name, he resorted to thievery, stealing only from those that he felt could spare it, and swearing that he would quit once he had enough gold to start his own business. Unfortunately, he soon grew to love his new lifestyle, looking forward to each hair-raising escape, dangerous break-in, or beautiful woman.
Occasionally, he would need to leave town for a while, disappearing into the wilderness until things had cooled down and his name was less known. His most recent retreat is apparently the result of a relationship with the female sorceress Brielbara. He sheepishly admits to being caught in the act of seducing a female member of the Knights of the Unicorn and being forced to flee from the violently jealous mage"
What make him good? Well he is a Robin Hood type character stealing only from the rich. when he is confronted by Brielbara in Baldur's Gate, he seems hesitant at first at having a daughter, but he agree to help Brielbara either with his friends or alone which seem like a gesture of some responsibility. In Baldur's Gate 2 when confronted by Safana and Lanfear he speak out to Safana when she reveal she is only out for the Bounty of Charname "No Safana i won't let you do this!"
His chaotic part is a lot easier to explain, he is a free spirit adventurer, he is a thief, and a constant womanizer even going as far as having affairs with married women. Some of his quotes perfectly match his chaotic nature "Luck be a Lady" "I think my new responsibility will be a great deal of fun." "Life is adventure or nothing." "Great peril yields great beauty." "Wherever fate takes me." "The storm is always preferable to the calm." "The essence of pleasure is spontaneity."
And he always compliment beautiful women in the group especially Safana
"Sometimes, Safana, I find myself attracted to you... despite your shallow, spiteful demeanor."
"If you weren't such a self-serving wench, I... don't think I'd find you half as attractive."!
However he does not even think about being a father to his daughter preferring his lifestyle.
This is a Quote from TV trope about the Chaotic Good Alignment
"Freedom Before Goodness are those who are more Chaotic than Good. They value freedom, and feel that they and others should be free to pursue their own desires — it just so happens that what they desire is to do good. They do not see doing good as a "duty" and may actively resent any attempts to compel them to do good even if the stakes are high, but will probably end up doing them anyway, justifying their actions by saying that this is what they want to do. They are also the type most likely to get annoyed by being called "The Hero" or something similar. This is also the type most likely to be a Loveable Rogue who commits crimes for their own gain, but balance it out with Never Hurt an Innocent and doing lots of good elsewhere in their lives."
I think it suits Coran quite well, Chaotic Good means little regard for rules, exampel so what if the hot babe is married, i'm gonna hit that anyway!
So what if the rich bastard has locked his doors and windows i'm breakin in and take some loot anyway.
So what if the Flaming fist is after me? i just chill in the woods till the heat has calmed down.
Okay i saved your... i mean our child, but you know me settling down and take responsibility is not my style, so goodluck with our offspring honey.
To sum it all up, Coran is more chaotic than good, he live for adventure and spontanity, always relying on luck and fate. He is a thief but only steal from those who can afford it. He is brave and dashing and have little regard for the law, both of society and of morality. He is quite hedonistic and selfish but he is not cruel, he save his daughters life either with your help or alone, and won't betray a friend.
When push comes to shove though, Coran benefits himself over others. He can't stop himself from stealing, he cheats on every woman he is with (Brielbara shows us that not all of them are okay with this) thats some major emotional hurt, abandoned his child because he cant give up his lifestyle. He is firmly chaotic. The only thing keeping him from evil is a lack of malice.
@Jimstrom I still feel like all that stuff could apply to a Chaotic Neutral character. Granted, they are EXTEREMELY likely to betray anyone in general, but examples exist of those who wouldn't.
For example: Safana and Saemon have absolutely no qualms about betraying people. Neera has done it before, but during her time with the party, she changes (particularly if you romance her). Jan and Garrick are iffy, which is exactly how CN should be.
I feel that Coran should still be considered CN at least in BG1, but in BG2 he has definitely moved up in the world to CG.
@ThacoBell Safana has the same disapproval of Coran in SOD, but we all know that Safana would totally cheat on anyone too. I mean, I've heard she cheats on CHARNAME with Voghiln if they are both in the same party.
@ThacoBell Yeah, Safana is CN and rightfully deserving of the alignment. Absolutely no case of mistaken alignment there. I was just continuing your argument by adding that Safana also got tired of Coran.
You might make an argument that Safana is a bit more evil than good. I don't think she's CE material though, so she's CN. She's kinda cruelly manipulative, but it can be argued she's using the tools she has; she doesn't have brawn after all, how else is she supposed to succeed as an adventurer?
Edit: I really think Coran does just enough regarding his child to not be evil, he really does the absolute minimum. He's solidly CN.
Also, Robin Hood is CG because he robs to fight oppression by an evil government and even shares the proceeds with those in need/offers sanctuary. Just stealing from the rich isn't CG behaviour.
Alora the klepto is a bit much for me, but maybe she's helping Halflings orphaned by Kobolds?
I think the problem with neutral characters is that they have no particular reason to do evil. I know, because I am chaotic neutral, yet I always see my reputation creep up, forcing me to impale the most annoying bastard around, to keep it neutral. Like, we do not go out of our way to do good, but given the choice between good and evil (all other factors being equal), yeah, we're gonna side with good, because being good feels good man, and people will be all nice to you, and stuff. We need encouragement to do evil, like, it's lucrative, or highly amusing, or if we dont feed that snitch to the fishes we will get heat after us... the default choice will be good, so we might easily be misinterpret as good.
Also, Robin Hood is CG because he robs to fight oppression by an evil government and even shares the proceeds with those in need/offers sanctuary. Just stealing from the rich isn't CG behaviour.
Good point. Someone once asked John Dillinger why he robbed banks; to which he replied "That's where the money is".
Something i forgot to mention, Coran was hired by Keldath Ormlyr to slay a dragon according to the townspeople, but he quickly came to that all witnesses had mentioned that the dragon had a barbed spikey tail, something that dragons lack that must mean it was wyverns instead. it's just a small notice, but since he was contracted he had a reason to hunt the wyverns in the first place.
@Jimstrom It's a common misconception that Chaotic Neutral characters don't have reason, the BG explanation of "lunatics and mad men tend toward this behavior" is a bit off. While your typical lunatic probably is Chaotic Neutral most of the Chaotic Neutral characters in Baldur's Gate are quite sane and capable of reasoning, including but not limited to 1. Safana 2. Garrick 3. Neera 4. Jan (Okay, Jan is a bit off, but he's still capable of reason) 5. Saemon Havarian 6. Haer'Dalis
Others who are probably CN and are completely mad are 1. Mad Arcand (though he was turned magically insane) 2. Dradeel
Edit: I just realized you meant A reason to do something, but I'm going to keep this comment here as a monument to my own stupidity.
Re: Coran, I think that as elves are generally CG (in 2nd Ed manual) his race and upbringing has shaped his alignment. Given enough time adventuring away from his roots, he certainly could slip into CN territory.
But elves are long-lived, and a few selfish or irresponsible acts along the way is not likely to change their frivolous but essentially well-meaning nature. True, we don't see Coran do any overtly good acts in the game, but we don't see any of Kivan or Alora either. He is at least working for Keldath, a good aligned character, to kill something evil.
Yes and Yago is an neutral evil mage who put a curse on his daughter so she would not live to her first birthday, it's a good deed to slay Yago and take back the spellbook som Brielbara cand break the curse, however once the good deed is done, he is off again to new adventures and good deeds.
Yes and Yago is an neutral evil mage who put a curse on his daughter so she would not live to her first birthday, it's a good deed to slay Yago and take back the spellbook som Brielbara cand break the curse, however once the good deed is done, he is off again to new adventures and good deeds.
Yes i know it is Corans child, Yago put a curse on Corans offspring because she had elven ears whe she was born, it is still a young child cursed to die, it is a good deed to try to prevent it.
I believe what we have here is a case of game balance over lore. Its pretty obvious that several characters were given certain alignments to keep alignment choices pretty balanced.
I always thought Viconia's alignment was more neutral. She's got a cruel streak to her, but she almost never really pushes you towards the evil actions like Edwin and Korgan do. And considering she lived in the Underdark for so long, she's actually become pretty tolerant on the surface.
@TheElf NE is a complex alignment. Most NE characters pursue evil or self-serving ends but don't really have a desire to push others to do the same. Many of them are exceptionally good at hiding their evil nature when necessary. Viconia is driven almost purely by a survival instinct and is also a cleric of Shar, a NE deity. Viconia doesn't tolerate weakness, is quick to berate a party that ventures into heroic territory but will side herself with whomever is necessary in order to pursue her goals and keep herself alive. She isn't the perfect example of NE, but she is a pretty good one.
Yet all the "really good" characters are of the Evil alignment. Hmm... >.>
Kivan. Alora. Yeslick. Branwen.
There you have: arguably the best archer, best thief, second best tank, best cleric (depending on playing style). There are no mages on that list, but no one is going to top Edwin as a mage, though I think Quayle edges him out as a spellcaster.
Mmm... Yeslick is indeed quite awesome. Wish he was available earlier, and that I didn't have to leave someone to die or go through the mines with only five characters worth of carrying space to get him. Though I can see arguments for Kagain (who's evil,) who has better physical stats without needing to rely on spells to make him better, and natural regeneration all the time. Plus, Kagain is available quite early and quite easily too.
I can also see arguments for Viccy (who's evil) over Branwen, do in no small part of her innate Magic Resistance. Spells be a problem, at all levels.
As for Alora, by that point in the game, it's almost silly to try adding a new party member. All your current crew have been invested in with items and time.
Kivan, though, I'll hand it to you. Well, if we ignore Coran, who's at least the same alignment.
@tbone1 That is true, no one can stop Edwin as a mage. Baeloth however is a Sorceror and tops Edwin quite nicely as an arcane spellcaster.
@JumboWheat01 While I've never used Alora, quick tweaking with the BG1 NPC Project Mod allows you to pick up late game NPCs a little earlier
Tiax can be moved from Baldur's Gate to Beregost. Alora can be moved from Baldur's Gate to Gullykin Eldoth can be moved from Cloakwood to the Crossroads Quayle can be moved from Wyrm's Crossing to the Nashkel Carnival
Comments
Yeah and Viconia posed for Playmale, so it's not that awkward.
(I'll just get my coat ...)
And why he attacks you when you not accept his quest to save Dynaheir, is a combination of desperation and stress, and probably a misinterpretation, that Minsc think you mock his proposal and clearly are not heroic enough, which make him mad.
Minsc has a heart of gold, and want to do heroics and just actions that is his good part. But he also got a short temper and low intelligence due to multiple blows to the head. hence the chaotic part.
Thank you, that's about the best explanation I can think of. It's the argument I'd been trying to make but I'm terrible at explaining things.
"When asked about his past, CORAN reveals that he hails from the Forest of Tethir, and while he has great memories of his time there, the serene lifestyle he felt it offered was ultimately not for him. Instead he traveled to the city of Baldur's Gate, dreaming of wealth, power, and respect.
With nary a coin to his name, he resorted to thievery, stealing only from those that he felt could spare it, and swearing that he would quit once he had enough gold to start his own business. Unfortunately, he soon grew to love his new lifestyle, looking forward to each hair-raising escape, dangerous break-in, or beautiful woman.
Occasionally, he would need to leave town for a while, disappearing into the wilderness until things had cooled down and his name was less known. His most recent retreat is apparently the result of a relationship with the female sorceress Brielbara. He sheepishly admits to being caught in the act of seducing a female member of the Knights of the Unicorn and being forced to flee from the violently jealous mage"
What make him good? Well he is a Robin Hood type character stealing only from the rich. when he is confronted by Brielbara in Baldur's Gate, he seems hesitant at first at having a daughter, but he agree to help Brielbara either with his friends or alone which seem like a gesture of some responsibility. In Baldur's Gate 2 when confronted by Safana and Lanfear he speak out to Safana when she reveal she is only out for the Bounty of Charname "No Safana i won't let you do this!"
His chaotic part is a lot easier to explain, he is a free spirit adventurer, he is a thief, and a constant womanizer even going as far as having affairs with married women. Some of his quotes perfectly match his chaotic nature "Luck be a Lady" "I think my new responsibility will be a great deal of fun." "Life is adventure or nothing." "Great peril yields great beauty." "Wherever fate takes me." "The storm is always preferable to the calm." "The essence of pleasure is spontaneity."
And he always compliment beautiful women in the group especially Safana
"Sometimes, Safana, I find myself attracted to you... despite your shallow, spiteful demeanor."
"If you weren't such a self-serving wench, I... don't think I'd find you half as attractive."!
However he does not even think about being a father to his daughter preferring his lifestyle.
This is a Quote from TV trope about the Chaotic Good Alignment
"Freedom Before Goodness are those who are more Chaotic than Good. They value freedom, and feel that they and others should be free to pursue their own desires — it just so happens that what they desire is to do good. They do not see doing good as a "duty" and may actively resent any attempts to compel them to do good even if the stakes are high, but will probably end up doing them anyway, justifying their actions by saying that this is what they want to do. They are also the type most likely to get annoyed by being called "The Hero" or something similar. This is also the type most likely to be a Loveable Rogue who commits crimes for their own gain, but balance it out with Never Hurt an Innocent and doing lots of good elsewhere in their lives."
I think it suits Coran quite well, Chaotic Good means little regard for rules, exampel so what if the hot babe is married, i'm gonna hit that anyway!
So what if the rich bastard has locked his doors and windows i'm breakin in and take some loot anyway.
So what if the Flaming fist is after me? i just chill in the woods till the heat has calmed down.
Okay i saved your... i mean our child, but you know me settling down and take responsibility is not my style, so goodluck with our offspring honey.
To sum it all up, Coran is more chaotic than good, he live for adventure and spontanity, always relying on luck and fate. He is a thief but only steal from those who can afford it. He is brave and dashing and have little regard for the law, both of society and of morality. He is quite hedonistic and selfish but he is not cruel, he save his daughters life either with your help or alone, and won't betray a friend.
I still feel like all that stuff could apply to a Chaotic Neutral character. Granted, they are EXTEREMELY likely to betray anyone in general, but examples exist of those who wouldn't.
For example:
Safana and Saemon have absolutely no qualms about betraying people. Neera has done it before, but during her time with the party, she changes (particularly if you romance her). Jan and Garrick are iffy, which is exactly how CN should be.
I feel that Coran should still be considered CN at least in BG1, but in BG2 he has definitely moved up in the world to CG.
Safana has the same disapproval of Coran in SOD, but we all know that Safana would totally cheat on anyone too. I mean, I've heard she cheats on CHARNAME with Voghiln if they are both in the same party.
Yeah, Safana is CN and rightfully deserving of the alignment. Absolutely no case of mistaken alignment there. I was just continuing your argument by adding that Safana also got tired of Coran.
Edit: I really think Coran does just enough regarding his child to not be evil, he really does the absolute minimum. He's solidly CN.
Also, Robin Hood is CG because he robs to fight oppression by an evil government and even shares the proceeds with those in need/offers sanctuary. Just stealing from the rich isn't CG behaviour.
Alora the klepto is a bit much for me, but maybe she's helping Halflings orphaned by Kobolds?
It's a common misconception that Chaotic Neutral characters don't have reason, the BG explanation of "lunatics and mad men tend toward this behavior" is a bit off. While your typical lunatic probably is Chaotic Neutral most of the Chaotic Neutral characters in Baldur's Gate are quite sane and capable of reasoning, including but not limited to
1. Safana
2. Garrick
3. Neera
4. Jan (Okay, Jan is a bit off, but he's still capable of reason)
5. Saemon Havarian
6. Haer'Dalis
Others who are probably CN and are completely mad are
1. Mad Arcand (though he was turned magically insane)
2. Dradeel
Edit: I just realized you meant A reason to do something, but I'm going to keep this comment here as a monument to my own stupidity.
But elves are long-lived, and a few selfish or irresponsible acts along the way is not likely to change their frivolous but essentially well-meaning nature. True, we don't see Coran do any overtly good acts in the game, but we don't see any of Kivan or Alora either. He is at least working for Keldath, a good aligned character, to kill something evil.
It is Coran's child, not Yago's
So the more you know, ...
NE is a complex alignment. Most NE characters pursue evil or self-serving ends but don't really have a desire to push others to do the same. Many of them are exceptionally good at hiding their evil nature when necessary. Viconia is driven almost purely by a survival instinct and is also a cleric of Shar, a NE deity. Viconia doesn't tolerate weakness, is quick to berate a party that ventures into heroic territory but will side herself with whomever is necessary in order to pursue her goals and keep herself alive. She isn't the perfect example of NE, but she is a pretty good one.
Dynaheir is a specialist, granted she isn't that great of a character, but she is a non-evil specialist.
Also Jan is an Illusionist/Thief and he's not evil, so that's two.
Neera is a Wild Mage so that's three.
Alora.
Yeslick.
Branwen.
There you have: arguably the best archer, best thief, second best tank, best cleric (depending on playing style). There are no mages on that list, but no one is going to top Edwin as a mage, though I think Quayle edges him out as a spellcaster.
I can also see arguments for Viccy (who's evil) over Branwen, do in no small part of her innate Magic Resistance. Spells be a problem, at all levels.
As for Alora, by that point in the game, it's almost silly to try adding a new party member. All your current crew have been invested in with items and time.
Kivan, though, I'll hand it to you. Well, if we ignore Coran, who's at least the same alignment.
That is true, no one can stop Edwin as a mage. Baeloth however is a Sorceror and tops Edwin quite nicely as an arcane spellcaster.
@JumboWheat01
While I've never used Alora, quick tweaking with the BG1 NPC Project Mod allows you to pick up late game NPCs a little earlier
Tiax can be moved from Baldur's Gate to Beregost.
Alora can be moved from Baldur's Gate to Gullykin
Eldoth can be moved from Cloakwood to the Crossroads
Quayle can be moved from Wyrm's Crossing to the Nashkel Carnival