Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Selective breeding program for creation of half-elf half-orcs

As well all know, in order for mammals to produce an off-spring, there needs to be sufficient hereditary (genomic and genetic) match. Pretty much, supposed the germ cells of two different species indeed did fuse (which may or may not happen, should a breeding attempt these species between occur), the resulting genetic code would be gibberish, causing a fatal development somewhere along the line, and the embryo / haphazard fetus would be ejected. In fact, the very distinction used to separate species from each others are the ability to produce offspring that in turn can produce offsprings. Mules, for instance, are infertile, thus, donkeys and horses are separate species, despite their ability to interbreed.

Now, realize that the realms are filled to the brim with magic, so magical creatures of all kinds are created, thus "impossible" matches can be done. Note that this is not scientifically impossible. Enjoy here, the image of a geep, that I teleported in from another world, supposedly more technologically advanced than ours;


Geep are created, not by fusing cells, but by taking embryonic cells of the two species and placing them next to each others; thus, half roughly half the cells are sheep, half are goat. The two species are similar enough to allow comprehensive cellular signaling, thus, a viable adult is possible. Note, that should this thing breed, the offspring would be either sheep or goat, as the germ cells would, perhaps randomly, be from one of the both composite species. Thus, the geep is not a species of it's own, as even supposed it could breed, the result would not be another geep. No, a geep is a chimera.

Plants and insects sometimes have crazy genetic setups, rather than fusing genomes, they are simply added on top, yet become full grown individuals. Can mammals be fused in a similar fashion? I imagine, in theory, that they could, but mammals are more sensitive. For instance, a tree can have leaves on the trunk and not die. A humanoid cannot have his heart on the outside of the body and survive. Of course, given enough time for liches or crazed mages to research, why not? And note that such magically created creatures would be able to breed.

However, in the realms, ASFAIK we do NOT see half orcs half elves, while both half human half orcs and half human half elves are common, suggesting something in the orc and elf genome simply do not match. We also (save flying gnomes that may or may not be canon) do not see half halfling half humans, half humans half dwarves, and half halflings half dwarves. Gnomes, meanwhile, are described as distant cousins to dwarves.

Therefore, I suggest that, among the common humanoid species, there are three distinct liineages:
1. Humans - from whence both orcs and elves evolved. That humans are the originator species explain why orcs and elves cannot interbreed - they took such different evolutional paths, that elf germ cells do not recognize orc germ cells as the same species, while human and elf and human and orc germ cells do.
2. Dwarves, from whence gnomes evolved.
3. Halflings.

One interesting observation can be drawn from this: despite their close cultural association, goblins and orcs are NOT related!

Further, nymphs, mermaids and sirens etc are magical constructs, using humans as a base. Interestingly, nymphs, mermaids and sirens etc breed with humans, however, can only produce female off-spring! This makes nymphs etc rather difficult to classify biologically. I think the best classification would be a symbiotic race of humans.

My final observation would be that, yes, I imagine that half-orc half-elves could exist, but the cause would either be:
1) magical fusion
2) selective or random breeding of half-elves and half-orcs, where a high genetic component of elf and orc is kept, but continuous breeding with humans eventually removes the genomic mismatch that exist between elves and orcs and an offspring would be produced, with enough distinguishing elf and orc features phenotypes to for all intents and purposes be a half-orc half-elf mixture! Certainly, the creation of such a creature would be a crowning achievement any biologist could be proud of!

Please, I therefore need your help in advancing this important science. I am searching for volunteer half-orcs and half-elves to interbreed, as specified by my algorithms following a quick medical exam. You will be compensated by 250 gold, and you get the added benefit that you will not need to hunt down a mate, I will assign you one and legally marry you (I was the captain of a ship in my younger days). Further, your offspring can expect the same easy gold once they reach of age. I am especially interested in second, third, or even fourth generations of half-elves or half-orcs.

I am also interesting in any slave-collared half-elves or half-orcs, especially, as mentioned, several generation ones. I will pay 1000 gold a piece, or more, if you can produce a pedigree, proving the half breed is of several generations.

I also reach out for financial institutes interested in this very important research. Imagine, for instance, what a benefit this rare breed could bring for any standing army: recruits of supreme strength and dexterity both, with the elves naturally refined senses and magical propensity.

Signed,
/// Lord DrakeICN

MirandelGirewanronaldosemiticgoddessMathsorcererBelgarathMTH

Comments

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,809
    Think of the races of D&D like Canines.

    A pit bull is vastly different than a French poodle or a great Danbury they are all the same species of animals allowing them to mate with each other and produce mongrel offspring similar to the half breeds of the D&D world.

    Like Each breed of dog has been bred for different purposes, the races of D&D, although the same, have been bred differently over the ages to get their own similiar character traits. A example would be the pit bull is muscular and stoutt (much like a dwarf) where as a French poodle is ugly and annoying (much like a gnome).

    So if one wants realistic biology in why their half-elf can have children, do not look to the mule or magic, look to the dogs for inspiration and reasoning.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,210
    Note that these various half races DO exist in PnP. Their absence in the game does not necessarily mean they do not exist at all.

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    I know the D&D universe is not ours, but reasearch has shown that primate species can successfully interbreed if they had a common ancestor within the last two million years. That's why humans and neanderthals could interbreed and why gorillas and chimpanzees can't.

    Shikao
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    tbone1 said:

    I know the D&D universe is not ours, but reasearch has shown that primate species can successfully interbreed if they had a common ancestor within the last two million years. That's why humans and neanderthals could interbreed and why gorillas and chimpanzees can't.

    A valid point, to be sure, but should, say, dwarves and halflings have a common ancestor, how can we be sure they have been isolated from each others for two million years? They live in close enough proximity now! It is true that speciation events are not only created by geography, but also because two races might stop interbreeding due to diverging mating clues and rituals, or failing to recognize each other as the same species, over time accumulating heridiatery differences eventually making interbreeding awkward. However, dwarves and halflings mate frequently enough today. I mean, not openly, but when the sun goes down, certain members of both species meet in secret "bath houses" where all manner of ungodly activities take place!

    No, I do believe they have uncommon ancestors, their likeness a result of convergent evolution... or perhaps a very distant ancestor, and the two races developed independently from different pre-sentient creatures. Granted, of course, look back long enough and we humans are related to fungi. I would say "we are all related" but that is not true, what with all the outsider creatures stemming from portal travels from other dimensions and what not.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Orcs did not evolve from humans, given that they came to Faerun via portals from their homeworld. The Orcgate Wars around -1067 were a major chapter in Forgotten Realm history after all.

    That is to say D&D does not biologically work. *At all!* The rule of thumb Ed Greenwood & Co. apparently envisioned is for everyone breeding with everything. Thus the birth of half-orc/half-ogres, half-halfling/half-goblins, half-human/half-gnolls, half-human/half-dwarves and half-sea elf/half-sahuagins. As well as the ever popular half-dragons and Sorcerer bloodlines. ;-)

    Not to mention the mongrelfolk that canonically bundle the racial traits of humans, orcs, elves, dwarves, gnomes and a whole list of other racial combinations in their family tree.

    I guess we could view the humanoid type as one big umbrella family and have racial subtypes such as humans, lizardfolk and true lycanthropes as different species of the same genus. But even with this train of thought one cannot explain the D&D human's ability of getting laid with dragons, undead, outsiders, aberrations and whatnot. Other sayin' "It's magic! Tehe~ :-D" of course... but that argument would quite literally defeat any discussion involving genetics.

    ThacoBell
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Hrrrmph! Stop peddling fairytales!
    https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Half-Gnoll_(5e_Race)

    Clearly halfgnolls can only interbreed with other halfgnolls, as predicted by their genomic setup!

    Half dragons are a magical union. The dragon and the human both provide genes, which is why they are called parents, but there was no actual mating involved (due to size differences, how would that even be possible?) The same can be said of fae and demons etc. Such creatures are chimeras! It is curious with chimeras that in turn can redproduce, but be aware that there is no true genomic merge! No, the dragon (fae, demon whatever) component seed is carried "on top" of the human or humanoid seed - put simple, there will be two embryo, so to speak, that merge into one fullgrown individual. Halfdragons are not different from geeps, other than that they "double up" when breeding. This may sound implausible, but remember that lichen are no different! One part fungi and one part algea - the genomes have not mixed, no, their "eggs" or spores or whatever you wish to call it double up with one spore from each species!

    Ogres are also a human race, I just did not list it, for they are savage.

    Lycantrophy is a pathogen, much like leprocity but turns men into beasts instead of weaklings. It can do such, since lycantrophy is something so curious as a magical pathogen!

    Half sahaguins are nothing but rumors and hearsay! Why, there is not a single fossil of a half sahaguin in Waterdeeps esteemed museum of natural history!

    Likewise, lizardfolk cannot breed with humans, that is also a load of hogwash!

    Regarding the orcgate, I do beg you to consider the possibility that our worlds have been joined even before this event, where a small tribe of humans wandered over to their world - evolving on geographically and environmentally different locations can certainly explain why we evolved so differently. Yes, I know this theory is controversial, but it is none the less is the most valid theory explaining how man and orc can interbreed!

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    The headcanon is strong in you. :-P
    Never trust dandwiki. For it is a site flooded with homebrew stuff. That half-gnoll being stated as such at the bottom page. When in doubt check Forgotten Realms Wiki:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Half-gnoll

    You may be surprised by the sheer amount of half-breeds out there. Both in official TSR/WotC products and 3rd party products.

    One of them is the Green Folk, which is indeed a half-human/half-lizardfolk halfbreed. They are in Bastards & Bloodlines: A Guidebook to Half-Breeds. Very interesting book by Green Ronin Publishing by the way. You also find half-beholders in there for even more of your genetic conspiracy theories. :-)

    That is to say even Forgotten Realms does have human/reptilian humanoid halfbreeds thanks to the sarrukh. The various yuan-ti and naga subraces being some of the most famous ones. Reversed Jurassic Park magic at work? Or is the gouverment lying and humans are in fact hairy reptiloids? Questions, questions.

    On a more serious note, there's only one reason why humans knock up anything: because so sayeth the wise Gygax.

    ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996

    On a more serious note, there's only one reason why humans knock up anything: because so sayeth the wise Gygax.

    A great reason; he did create the game, after all.

    But there is precedent n myth, legend, etc. Gandalf was part elf, IIRC, and the Viking legends had people of eleven blood as well.

  • ShikaoShikao Member Posts: 376
    tbone1 said:

    But there is precedent n myth, legend, etc. Gandalf was part elf, IIRC, and the Viking legends had people of eleven blood as well.

    Gandalf was a Maiar (so was Sauron).

    ThacoBellrorikon
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    This Gygax fellow is assuredly no biologist, or he would not be spouting such nonsense. While I am sure he is a scholar of great learning and wisdom in other fields, how about we listen to the biologists in matters of biology, or am I to presumptious now?

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    DrakeICN said:

    This Gygax fellow is assuredly no biologist, or he would not be spouting such nonsense. While I am sure he is a scholar of great learning and wisdom in other fields, how about we listen to the biologists in matters of biology, or am I to presumptious now?

    No no no! We should listen to actors! And politicians! And journalists! And preachers! They know everything!

    "Rock stars. Is there anything they don't know?" - H. Simpson

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Let's keep eugenics in the 1930s, Adolf

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996

    Let's keep eugenics in the 1930s, Adolf

    Yeah, it is a bit uncomfortable. OTOH, many liberal, forward-thinking people in the 20s and 30s saw merit in it. And I have to admit, I have met couples of whom I've thought "Wow, you probably shouldn't have gotten those genes to mix."

    I mean, really, we've all thought something along those lines at SOME point.

    DrakeICN
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Hey man, I am not telling you to not dip your cucumber in a blue, vaguely humanoid bug lady with three eyes and a beak. By all means knock yourself out if that is what rocks your boat... I am just saying it ain't gonna produce no result, that's all.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,644
    We geeks think about this kind of stuff too much, don't we?

    @Kamigoroshi , Faerun orcs came through portals from another world? I'd never heard that in Forgotten Realms lore before.

    It sounds exactly like World of Warcraft. Did the one franchise lift the idea from the other, do you think?

    Zaghoultbone1
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    @BelgarathMTH The Orcgate Wars were a pretty major happening. Basically the Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons + their respective followers against the invading Orcish pantheons + followers. Re for instance way slain by Gruumsh in that series of battles. And Tiamat swooped over the weakened Unther and killed pretty much all of their remaining gods.

    I know of at least two Forgotten Realms sources that talked about it in detail: Races of Faerûn and Lost Empires of Faerûn. Volo's Guide to All Things Magical may also had a few lines of that so-called Battle of the Gods.

    Don't know anything about World of Warcraft though. But it wouldn't surprise me if they did recycle stuff. Given that different franchises love to use bits 'n pieces of other franchises. D&D did that a lot too after all.

    BelgarathMTH
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 4,194
    Sahuagin mutating into Malenti when near sea elves is an interesting idea. Not breeding, but I reckon it must be more along the lines of amphibians changing sex ('cept a tad more drastic) in the right environment or company.

    Although I'm not sure what happens if the Malenti breeds with a sea elf. Back to Sahuagin, Malenti, or nothing? I'm guessing sahuagin with malenti is basically a malenti, perhaps.

    Or is it something straight outa Squidbillies?

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    I cant google this melenti, but from your description it appears like sahaguin is similar to the nymph form of insects and (some) amphibians, except the nymph form might be the final form without the presence of the environmental clues that turn them into melenti. Or, as you say, the one-way switch crocidiles have depending on temperature, that determines gender. So, I will answer based on that assumption.
    Zaghoul said:

    Although I'm not sure what happens if the Malenti breeds with a sea elf.

    They have a good time... or not so good time... and then they have no off-spring.
    Zaghoul said:

    I'm guessing sahuagin with malenti is basically a malenti, perhaps.

    You generally do not inherit epigenetic changes, and since Sahaguin is the "basic" form (the form it would take in the absence of certain environmental clues, or perhaps better specified as the form it would take in it's natural habitat during a typical* upbringing), a melenti and sahuahin breeding would result in a sahaguin.

    *Typical may be hard to define for certain species

  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    tbone1 said:

    On a more serious note, there's only one reason why humans knock up anything: because so sayeth the wise Gygax.

    A great reason; he did create the game, after all.

    But there is precedent n myth, legend, etc. Gandalf was part elf, IIRC, and the Viking legends had people of eleven blood as well.
    Gandalf (wand elf literally) is one of the named dwarves in the Edda. In LOTR, he is not an elf, but a Maia, like Sauron, Balrogs, Saruman and the other wizards.

Sign In or Register to comment.