Just no no no no. Stop thinking so much about reworking BG, its not something you are good at. The point of playing a generalist mage in D&D is that you gain access to every arcane spell, and have superior versatality. Specialist mages can cast more spells, but lose a school, plus they lose a second school if they become a red mage (not implemented for Edwin in BG). Sorcerers can cast loads more spells, but they can only have a tiny number learnt and they cannot change their learnt spells.
All those restrictions you are thinking of, you can role play them anyway if you so choose to. See if you make a Wizard with 9 intelligence, you can only memorize 4 spells per level or something, so the solution already exists for you. If you find the game too easy then make it harder for yourself, the game has that option. Stop suggesting hard coded nerfs that would only ruin the game for everyone else.
When you get all those high level spells you are talking about, you have more then enough money to pay a little 810 gp per spell, it would only nerf low levelled mages
This. It would just make low level awful and then high level would be like yeah whatever no sweat.
By the way @IntoTheDarkness, what is this you have 8 posts, 2 of which were threads complaining about magic, and you have 0 Insightfuls, 0 Agrees, 0 Likes? I think it's fair to say nobody agrees with your ideas.
Honestly I'd prefer for awesome spells to be more interesting to get in the first place, rather than shove a book keeping nightmare in there instead.
For much of it, that would mean if you wanted a "rare" spell, you'd probably have to take out a mage who had that spell in their library, find that one dusty copy in Candlekeep library, barter with dragons for that tome of eldritch knowledge.... Yes, that would make Sorcerers even more boring, but rocking phenomenal arcane power you've quite literally scoured the earth for would make the resultant domination a reward for hard work rather than "welcome to the Forgotten Realms, enjoy your Wish scroll".
Of course, I feel the same way about magic items too (hence why my favourite items are those one has to either locate or assemble, like the hugely memorable Flail of Ages, rather than the I don't even remember the name katana you find in a dumpster outside magic mart.
Just no no no no. Stop thinking so much about reworking BG, its not something you are good at. The point of playing a generalist mage in D&D is that you gain access to every arcane spell, and have superior versatality. Specialist mages can cast more spells, but lose a school, plus they lose a second school if they become a red mage (not implemented for Edwin in BG). Sorcerers can cast loads more spells, but they can only have a tiny number learnt and they cannot change their learnt spells.
All those restrictions you are thinking of, you can role play them anyway if you so choose to. See if you make a Wizard with 9 intelligence, you can only memorize 4 spells per level or something, so the solution already exists for you. If you find the game too easy then make it harder for yourself, the game has that option. Stop suggesting hard coded nerfs that would only ruin the game for everyone else.
Dude, chill out. Just making a suggestion. You dont have to rant about it.
How does HP matter when you are virtually immune to all damages with protection spells? Even if you don't pre-buff, stoneskin and contingencies can buy you time to cast a timestop. once timestop is fired, the battle is over. a fully effective level 50th fighter(with exp remover and unnerfed thac0, saving throw table) will be slaughtered by a level 20 sorc, no matter the circumstances. Give me a sorc who can cast 9th level and I can kill as many fighters, regardless of their level, as the number of timestop available. (a little exaggeration. but no doubt they are immensely powerful in high levels )
Wizard Slayers. Tee hee. I believe that's approximately 130% magic resistance before items or bonuses for level 50 Wizard Slayers. Imprisonment, sure, if you're prepared for them, or burn all your timestop - chain contingency - lower resistance.
Or maybe one of the fighters has the Cloak of Mirroring. Chain Contingency would then, assuming you prepared it ahead of time with 3 horrid wilting, which it sounds like you did, would then pop back onto you.
Or maybe one of the fighters drunk a potion of magic blocking. Used a scroll of protection from magic. Etc.
Or maybe one of the fighters is actually a Paladin wielding Carosmyr and enough bonuses to hit 100% magic resistance. An inquisitor, even.
Or maybe a Kensai/Thief came up behind you while his buddies distracted you, wearing his cloak of non-detection. Popped you with an arrow of dispelling, re-invised in an instant, and went in for a backstab?
Or maybe a Monk walked up and quivering palmed you, laughing all the while with 100% resistance and obnoxious saves?
Personally, I'm a fan of Nature's Beauty for anti-everything-you-just-said. It's a faster cast than time stop. Insect plague while you're busy trying to recover (Targeted on someone else, of course, so there isn't a chance of magic resistance or spell protections).
Magic is overpowered against computer AI, maybe. It's a game against computer AI. Who cares? High level ANYTHING is overpowered in Baldur's gate, *especially* once you collect all the rare items and such, because the AI is pretty shitty compared to a human and the AI doesn't have the advantage of going through the game collecting all the overpowered gear or the precious few potions or scrolls of middle finger to mages. Perhaps you would prefer a mod where they did, like SCS (Here's looking at you Mr. Pre-Buff and Potions for Enemies) or Tactics?
If you really want to disincentivise certain spell usage, you be bettter off using the 3ed system of making them cost experience, since gold is rarely if ever a limiting factor in bg.
I don't think that saying "magic is supposed to be more powerful, suck it up" is a valid argument. The designers of D&D realized long ago that a game where the classes are equally powerful and needed is the most fun game.
However, I don't think Baldur's Gate needs to change in this respect. As others have said, impose your own restrictions. Baldur's Gate is a great game, but only when you compete with yourself. Trying to bring modern day multiplayer game balance to Baldur's Gate is like eating soup with a fork. It may work, but you won't enjoy it.
Besides, there are loads of ways to nullify mages. Scroll of magic bubble anyone? Cloak of non-detection + potion of invisibility and playing the waiting game? The ways of cheese are endless for she/he who seeks.
Don't know if you guys have played Ultima Online, but back in the days when I started playing it with a magic user, I immediately thought of BG and the lack of reagents for casting. Garlic, mandrake root, etc.
Regarding reagents costs in Forgotten Realms, I think there were some guidelines on prices in the Players Manual/Handbook. Ultimately it was the GM responsibility. Since all we get in BG is gold pieces, ( no platinum, silver or copper pieces) it would be unreal and unfair to charge at least one gold piece for say one clove of garlic. Spider silk maybe more valuable than that, yes...
Didn't some spells require gems? Like limited wish and Wish? Item Enchanting? It's been over 15 years since I played 2nd Edition PnP AD&D (sigh...), so my memory is a bit hazy.
If we go into wanting components playing a part in the game I also want certain areas (small towns, villages and hamlets) to not provide these materials. Why would small areas sell spell components when there is no guarantee cash flow?
I would not enjoy breaking away from a quest just to farm up materials (or travel a distance to buy more) especially if said components were for a 'common' spell (and thus it would be assumed I would carry plenty of it with me). I would expect logic to play a part in where various critters/objects are found.
Personally I found wizards weak enough in the early game to make up for being strong towards the later game. But I never took one seriously enough to actually min/max their potential. (Closest I got was a bard who cast her spells as if she were a wild mage.)
I don't think that saying "magic is supposed to be more powerful, suck it up" is a valid argument. The designers of D&D realized long ago that a game where the classes are equally powerful and needed is the most fun game.
No they didn't, in Dungeons and Dragons online Wizards, Sorcerers and Favored Souls are extremely more powerful than all the other classes. However I agree it would make D&D games more fun to BUFF thieves and melee classes to bring them up to the level of spellcasters, rather than nerfing the spellcaster classes.
In DDO, people have soloed the most difficult non raid epic quests with Wizards. Even some epic raids are easy to farm using a godly DC Necromancer with instakill spells. Assassins in that game are actually the most powerful melee class in terms of DPS, and they can also instakill with sneak attacks, but they are incredibly squishy and lack the invincibility of a pale wizard with mana potions.
I think the best solution would be to add some restriction on resting/memorizing.
Think about the poor clerics / druids. Do you still want to be able to heal your party?
The best solution is to do absolutely nothing, and if you find the game too easy then play it hardcore with low stats and permadeath. Maybe they could add a no save possible until you quit the game, and permenant deletion of your save if you die type of mode to the game. Then tell me that magic is overpowered. Or even make your own mods to make the game however you like rather than wanting it ruined for everyone else.
Sure if you reload a lot and master the game, it becomes easy. But if you make a Wizard on your very first playthrough, you are going to die and reload over and over again.
BG is still much more difficult and challenging than todays over balanced RPGs. Also back when BG was first released and in all these years, I've never seen anyone on other BG fan forums complaining about anything being overpowered. Just because you can easily beat the game after years and years of practice doesn't make it easy or anything overpowered, it just means you know everything that's going to happen and how to beat it.
I don't think that saying "magic is supposed to be more powerful, suck it up" is a valid argument. The designers of D&D realized long ago that a game where the classes are equally powerful and needed is the most fun game.
No they didn't, in Dungeons and Dragons online Wizards, Sorcerers and Favored Souls are extremely more powerful than all the other classes. However I agree it would make D&D games more fun to BUFF thieves and melee classes to bring them up to the level of spellcasters, rather than nerfing the spellcaster classes.
In DDO, people have soloed the most difficult non raid epic quests with Wizards. Even some epic raids are easy to farm using a godly DC Necromancer with instakill spells. Assassins in that game are actually the most powerful melee class in terms of DPS, and they can also instakill with sneak attacks, but they are incredibly squishy and lack the invincibility of a pale wizard with mana potions.
I'm not talking about a computer game, I'm talking about pnp D&D. At third edition, they realized that they couldn't keep going with "mages get all the options, fighters get to smash". Still, they didn't reach the goal of balance (while a skilled DM can somewhat remedy that). Hopefully they've learned about game design come D&D Next.
The points kinda moot for BG1. As said before, we wont be getting anywhere near level 30, nevermind 50... All it will do is nerf already kinda weak mages in BG1.
PNP has nothing to do with the CRPGs. You cannot create computer games which are 100% like PNP because they wouldn't work well. In CRPGs, many players enjoy playing powerful wizard type classes. People also enjoy playing other classes too, so make those more fun rather then making wizards less fun.
How could you get at theese lvl without cheating or exort/import your character a large amount of time. And of course in your exemple, theese warriors don't have any magic resistance. And to use a spell you already need to spend gold to buy it (exept for low lvl spell). Adding gold requirement will only nerf low lvl mage and for high lvl mage who can use very powerfull spell, it will don't do anything, because at theese lvl you always have a LARGE amount of gold, enough to cast hundreds of spell to kill 2 or 3 lvl 50 warriors with a lvl 30 mage as you said ( even if i don't believe you can't get to theese lvl before finishing the game, even with adding content).
I think the best solution would be to add some restriction on resting/memorizing.
Think about the poor clerics / druids. Do you still want to be able to heal your party?
Im thinking! And yes, I still believe its a viable option. Risk/reward ratio of casting a certain spell contra saving it for later adds to the tactical depth aswell as the sense of adventure imo.
Another solution would be to give casters a certain spell-score based on lvl. So lets say your mage got a score of 10 it means you can memorize ten lvl 1 spells, or one lvl 1 & a lvl 9. Etc...
I suppose I can be glad that beamdog aren't going to be changing anything about the game after reading such ideas and solutions. If it isn't broke, don't fix it!
In PNP spell progression, Wizards can progress up to memorizing 8-9 spells per level. Having just 5 slots per level is already balanced enough.
They will instead, cost Euros or Dollars, real money, every time you cast a spell, the game alt tabs, and you will have to donate Euros/Dollars according to the strength of the spell, to my personal paypal account.
I think it's a very nice system and kudos to me for thinking about it.
Anyone else notice that this was, to an extent, a chunk of the marrow of the 3.Xe v 4e discussions. And I'm using the word discussion loosely. So yeah, everyone, tread carefully...
I think engine support for material components would be fine and some rare spells (like resurrection) could have material components. But i would leave it to modders to implement full scale material requirements.
No thanks, there's a reason most sane DM's don't use this system and it's because it sucks. Certain Quest spells and high level spells are often given some type of material cost but that usually revolves around questing to get it, not just losing gold every time you cast a spell.
Magic is powerful sure, but the easiest way to beat BG is to attack zerg everything with fighters, rage mechanics make Barbarian and Brezerker stupidly powerful to the point where they can solo demi-liches thanks the protections they get, kensai/thief is stupidly powerful and doesn't even need magic to become powerful though it can use scrolls at will.
Mages are in no way more powerful than fighters when you build a fighter properly. A half orc zerker dual wielding Axe of Unyielding + 5 and Belm or Crom using Critcal Strike or Greater Whirlwind is an absolute beast on pure damage alone, nevermind the chance to insta-kill on Axe of Unyielding. Add the immunity to damn near everything that rage gives, the fact that you can just chain rage the entire fight, get grand mastery (not a huge factor but still), and have a sizable HP pool, good AC, flexible equipment choices, and suddenly fighters aren't looking to bad.
TL;DR - mages are fine and if you want to "fix" them somehow, adding gold cost to spells is not the way to do it, it's just a gimmicky contrived mechanic.
Casting spells for free doesn't make sense so making them cost gold does....logic fail. Why would a spell cost gold and who gets paid. I don't like this idea.
A lot of times ideas that would work well in one medium just don't in another.
Take Spell Components for example: Spell components are often wholly ignored because it's annoying to keep track of everything. When they're used if you have a Spell Component Pouch it's assumed you have what you need unless the component is very rare or expensive.
In a Pen and Paper game, the Dungeon Master knows (or should know) when the appropriate time is to create drama by removing the wizard's components. "Well, I could cast charm person on the guard but I don't have my components!" and when to ignore them. Spending two hours of game time trying to find a new supplier of Bat Guano for your fireball spell is not fun.
Computers are great for keeping track of a lot of variables that would slow down play or overly complicate play in a tabletop game. The lack of a living DM to keep the game moving along and fun greatly hampers a lot of the things that make D&D fun. The Baldur's Gate series is a really good compromise, in my opinion.
Anyway, you're not going to get much better than what we already have. We've had years of experience playing and modifying this game and people, in numbers, find this to be one of the best games ever, especially in its own niche. Gross changes won't improve anything. They will make the game different, but they won't make it better. And many would argue, as can be seen here, that it would make the game much, much worse.
Comments
All those restrictions you are thinking of, you can role play them anyway if you so choose to. See if you make a Wizard with 9 intelligence, you can only memorize 4 spells per level or something, so the solution already exists for you. If you find the game too easy then make it harder for yourself, the game has that option. Stop suggesting hard coded nerfs that would only ruin the game for everyone else.
By the way @IntoTheDarkness, what is this you have 8 posts, 2 of which were threads complaining about magic, and you have 0 Insightfuls, 0 Agrees, 0 Likes? I think it's fair to say nobody agrees with your ideas.
For much of it, that would mean if you wanted a "rare" spell, you'd probably have to take out a mage who had that spell in their library, find that one dusty copy in Candlekeep library, barter with dragons for that tome of eldritch knowledge.... Yes, that would make Sorcerers even more boring, but rocking phenomenal arcane power you've quite literally scoured the earth for would make the resultant domination a reward for hard work rather than "welcome to the Forgotten Realms, enjoy your Wish scroll".
Of course, I feel the same way about magic items too (hence why my favourite items are those one has to either locate or assemble, like the hugely memorable Flail of Ages, rather than the I don't even remember the name katana you find in a dumpster outside magic mart.
Or maybe one of the fighters has the Cloak of Mirroring. Chain Contingency would then, assuming you prepared it ahead of time with 3 horrid wilting, which it sounds like you did, would then pop back onto you.
Or maybe one of the fighters drunk a potion of magic blocking. Used a scroll of protection from magic. Etc.
Or maybe one of the fighters is actually a Paladin wielding Carosmyr and enough bonuses to hit 100% magic resistance. An inquisitor, even.
Or maybe a Kensai/Thief came up behind you while his buddies distracted you, wearing his cloak of non-detection. Popped you with an arrow of dispelling, re-invised in an instant, and went in for a backstab?
Or maybe a Monk walked up and quivering palmed you, laughing all the while with 100% resistance and obnoxious saves?
Personally, I'm a fan of Nature's Beauty for anti-everything-you-just-said. It's a faster cast than time stop. Insect plague while you're busy trying to recover (Targeted on someone else, of course, so there isn't a chance of magic resistance or spell protections).
Magic is overpowered against computer AI, maybe. It's a game against computer AI. Who cares? High level ANYTHING is overpowered in Baldur's gate, *especially* once you collect all the rare items and such, because the AI is pretty shitty compared to a human and the AI doesn't have the advantage of going through the game collecting all the overpowered gear or the precious few potions or scrolls of middle finger to mages. Perhaps you would prefer a mod where they did, like SCS (Here's looking at you Mr. Pre-Buff and Potions for Enemies) or Tactics?
However, I don't think Baldur's Gate needs to change in this respect. As others have said, impose your own restrictions. Baldur's Gate is a great game, but only when you compete with yourself. Trying to bring modern day multiplayer game balance to Baldur's Gate is like eating soup with a fork. It may work, but you won't enjoy it.
Besides, there are loads of ways to nullify mages. Scroll of magic bubble anyone? Cloak of non-detection + potion of invisibility and playing the waiting game? The ways of cheese are endless for she/he who seeks.
Regarding reagents costs in Forgotten Realms, I think there were some guidelines on prices in the Players Manual/Handbook. Ultimately it was the GM responsibility. Since all we get in BG is gold pieces, ( no platinum, silver or copper pieces) it would be unreal and unfair to charge at least one gold piece for say one clove of garlic. Spider silk maybe more valuable than that, yes...
Didn't some spells require gems? Like limited wish and Wish? Item Enchanting? It's been over 15 years since I played 2nd Edition PnP AD&D (sigh...), so my memory is a bit hazy.
I would not enjoy breaking away from a quest just to farm up materials (or travel a distance to buy more) especially if said components were for a 'common' spell (and thus it would be assumed I would carry plenty of it with me). I would expect logic to play a part in where various critters/objects are found.
Personally I found wizards weak enough in the early game to make up for being strong towards the later game. But I never took one seriously enough to actually min/max their potential. (Closest I got was a bard who cast her spells as if she were a wild mage.)
In DDO, people have soloed the most difficult non raid epic quests with Wizards. Even some epic raids are easy to farm using a godly DC Necromancer with instakill spells. Assassins in that game are actually the most powerful melee class in terms of DPS, and they can also instakill with sneak attacks, but they are incredibly squishy and lack the invincibility of a pale wizard with mana potions.
The best solution is to do absolutely nothing, and if you find the game too easy then play it hardcore with low stats and permadeath. Maybe they could add a no save possible until you quit the game, and permenant deletion of your save if you die type of mode to the game. Then tell me that magic is overpowered. Or even make your own mods to make the game however you like rather than wanting it ruined for everyone else.
Sure if you reload a lot and master the game, it becomes easy. But if you make a Wizard on your very first playthrough, you are going to die and reload over and over again.
BG is still much more difficult and challenging than todays over balanced RPGs. Also back when BG was first released and in all these years, I've never seen anyone on other BG fan forums complaining about anything being overpowered. Just because you can easily beat the game after years and years of practice doesn't make it easy or anything overpowered, it just means you know everything that's going to happen and how to beat it.
Another solution would be to give casters a certain spell-score based on lvl. So lets say your mage got a score of 10 it means you can memorize ten lvl 1 spells, or one lvl 1 & a lvl 9. Etc...
In PNP spell progression, Wizards can progress up to memorizing 8-9 spells per level. Having just 5 slots per level is already balanced enough.
Well, thats the thing... Apparently it is sortof broken :P
You should also be forced to pay for Space Hamster food if you have minsc in your party
Spells will not cost gold.
They will instead, cost Euros or Dollars, real money, every time you cast a spell, the game alt tabs, and you will have to donate Euros/Dollars according to the strength of the spell, to my personal paypal account.
I think it's a very nice system and kudos to me for thinking about it.
P.S. No, spell system is fine o_O
Thanks but noooooo thanks.
So yeah, everyone, tread carefully...
Magic is powerful sure, but the easiest way to beat BG is to attack zerg everything with fighters, rage mechanics make Barbarian and Brezerker stupidly powerful to the point where they can solo demi-liches thanks the protections they get, kensai/thief is stupidly powerful and doesn't even need magic to become powerful though it can use scrolls at will.
Mages are in no way more powerful than fighters when you build a fighter properly. A half orc zerker dual wielding Axe of Unyielding + 5 and Belm or Crom using Critcal Strike or Greater Whirlwind is an absolute beast on pure damage alone, nevermind the chance to insta-kill on Axe of Unyielding. Add the immunity to damn near everything that rage gives, the fact that you can just chain rage the entire fight, get grand mastery (not a huge factor but still), and have a sizable HP pool, good AC, flexible equipment choices, and suddenly fighters aren't looking to bad.
TL;DR - mages are fine and if you want to "fix" them somehow, adding gold cost to spells is not the way to do it, it's just a gimmicky contrived mechanic.
Take Spell Components for example: Spell components are often wholly ignored because it's annoying to keep track of everything. When they're used if you have a Spell Component Pouch it's assumed you have what you need unless the component is very rare or expensive.
In a Pen and Paper game, the Dungeon Master knows (or should know) when the appropriate time is to create drama by removing the wizard's components. "Well, I could cast charm person on the guard but I don't have my components!" and when to ignore them. Spending two hours of game time trying to find a new supplier of Bat Guano for your fireball spell is not fun.
Computers are great for keeping track of a lot of variables that would slow down play or overly complicate play in a tabletop game. The lack of a living DM to keep the game moving along and fun greatly hampers a lot of the things that make D&D fun. The Baldur's Gate series is a really good compromise, in my opinion.
Anyway, you're not going to get much better than what we already have. We've had years of experience playing and modifying this game and people, in numbers, find this to be one of the best games ever, especially in its own niche. Gross changes won't improve anything. They will make the game different, but they won't make it better. And many would argue, as can be seen here, that it would make the game much, much worse.