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Goblins as a playable race

Well, SoD has been out for quite some time now, and I've been wondering this.

Why aren't Goblins available as a playable race?
I understand that their paper-dolls/sprites don't reflect all the armors and weapons available in the game (as one can easily see by playing with M’Khiin) but I honestly don't think anyone would complain much about that. Just make them playable with only the Fighter and Shaman classes and they'll look alright.
Is it a technical limitation? Or is it just a case of "no one wants to play as a goblin"?
I understand that RP-wise it wouldn't make much sense for Charname to be a Goblin (NPCs would probably just react as if you were a more... let's say "common/non-monster" race), but I would still enjoy creating one.

I understand Drows and Avariel (for example) not being available. As far as aesthetics go, all you have to do is create an Elf and give it dark skin (drow) or use the console to give it wings (avariel).
Mind you, I'm talking aesthetics here, I realise it wouldn't make much sense for charname to be a drow or avariel either, and that you would still be missing the actual race characteristics (magic resistence, etc).

But Goblins are different.
I see no point in having a Goblin NPC but not being able to create your own. Can any Dev answer me?
I'm a programmer myself, so if it's a code/engine limitation then I can totally understand that, but as of right now I see no reason for it. :)
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Comments

  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 211
    edited October 19
    I'm guessing it is a matter of priorities. They are working on patching all the games right now, so a new race would be a low priority (probably a non-existent priority).

    The main antagonist for SoD is Caelar Argent, an Aasimar. Yet if I remember correctly you'd need to install the Planetouched Races mod to play as an Aasimar (don't have the game installed at the moment to actually check).

    Since you are a programmer, I'd suggest making a mod. There are people in the community that could probably help you figure it out since others have made mods for class and race kits.

    You can find a list of mods for BG/SOD here: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50340/bg-ee-2-0-and-siege-of-dragonspear-compatible-mods/p1
    Dev6
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member Posts: 1,682
    I've had good results with using EEKeeper and humanoid races, quite a few (Ogre, Fremlin, pixie, beastman). I have not checked the goblin (with the NPC it just might) but the ogre for example has the avatar, gnoll does as well I know. Ogre even has a little of the combat voicing in a fight. I just RP the rest as far as my perception to others and vice versa. The race will not show on the character page but does have an effect in game on items, romances, etc.

    So, with a little RP and EEKeeper it makes for a different run. I know @ThacoBell has run a kobold for a bit and found that looking at the game from a kobold perspective to be a little jarring (having your brethren in the Nashkel mines coming after ya and be mislead. Once thinking in that mindset and encountering things (other kobolds for him and ogres for me) it gets the imagination flowing. B)
    After three ogre runs (and I get Min/max scores, likes/dislikes, natural AC, MR or not/ natural invisibility of pixie, etc. from the old 2nd edition D&D Humanoid Companions Book), I am having a little trouble adjusting back to a human run now, heh.
    Quite fun I will say.

    But yeah, I hear ya, full choice at from the standard game would be nice.
    ThacoBellDev6Arctodus
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,410
    I think the biggest barrier to making goblins playable right now is the lack of animations. You get bows and axes and I think small shields. All other weapons would show as invisible without new animations. Giving a class only 2 weapon types to choose from and 2 classes (as suggested above) would just make people upset. It can be done, but animating a new pc race like that is time consuming and Beamdog has a LOT on their plate right now, and lots of people just waiting for them to fail.
    Dev6
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 161
    @themazingness
    You make a good point about Caelar being an Aasimar, but to be fair, aesthetically she's pretty much just a human.
    Goblins would be a completely different and new playable race.
    I understand your point about it not being a priority, but it would be nice to hear beamdog's official stance on it.

    @ThacoBell
    The animations problem already happens with M’Khiin but I don't see it as something too serious.
    I mean, sure, it'd be nice to have a properly animated Goblin, but let's not ask for miracles here. I understand how incredibly time consuming that would be.
    themazingnessscriver
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,126
    edited October 19
    Could Bhaal have laid with goblins? Would they be compatible?
    Furthermore a goblin would require completely different reactions by NPC rather other races.

    Too messy.
    At least it could be a mod, but I do not want to see Beamdog burdened by that. They are already swamped with work
    themazingnessAedan
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 211
    edited October 19
    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have laid with goblins? Would they be compatible?
    Furthermore a goblin would require completely different reactions by NPC rather other races.

    Too messy.
    At least it could be a mod, but I do not want to see Beamdog burdened by that. They are already swamped with work

    Yeah, I agree this is another reason a mod would make sense. I feel official stuff should incorporate proper roleplaying where possible. We already have too many complaints over how adding Hexxat failed multiple role-playing issues.

    However, I don't think I'd worry too much about goblinoid Bhaalspawn. The game already allows for half-orc, and if you take the half part literally we already have Bhaal copulating with orcs.
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 161
    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have laid with goblins? Would they be compatible?
    Furthermore a goblin would require completely different reactions by NPC rather other races.

    Considering the bhaalspawns we meet in ToB, the guy could have laid with anyone and anything that moves.
    As for the reactions you're absolutely right.

    However, I don't think I'd worry too much about goblinoid Bhaalspawn. The game already allows for half-orc, and if you take the half part literally we already have Bhaal copulating with orcs.

    I think a half-orc bhaalspawn means bhaal got together with a half-orc, not an orc though. :)
    Mortianna
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 211
    edited October 20
    Dev6 said:

    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have laid with goblins? Would they be compatible?
    Furthermore a goblin would require completely different reactions by NPC rather other races.

    Considering the bhaalspawns we meet in ToB, the guy could have laid with anyone and anything that moves.
    As for the reactions you're absolutely right.

    However, I don't think I'd worry too much about goblinoid Bhaalspawn. The game already allows for half-orc, and if you take the half part literally we already have Bhaal copulating with orcs.

    I think a half-orc bhaalspawn means bhaal got together with a half-orc, not an orc though. :)
    I've always assumed half-breeds would function like ligers and mules where they are typically sterile with unhealthy exceptions. So even if you had a quarter-breed its CON score would be terrible. Maybe god blood would counterbalance that though. Or maybe I'm over thinking :smile: . And maybe D&D canon disagrees with me on sterility. (I'm thinking there might be examples in magical quarter-breeds like half-elves and planetouched but not non-magical; idk)
    Post edited by themazingness on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,410
    @Dev6 "The animations problem already happens with M’Khiin but I don't see it as something too serious.
    I mean, sure, it'd be nice to have a properly animated Goblin, but let's not ask for miracles here. I understand how incredibly time consuming that would be. "
    We will have to disagree here. It's not a problem with M'Khiin because she doesn't use any normal weapons at all. All her weapons are coded to be used specifically for her. You can't do that with charname as people favor different weapons in different combinations. Having a race, but only able to use two weapon types ever would leave me frothing at the mouth. And I'm in favor of more playable goblinoid races.
    elminster
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 161
    @themazingness I checked charname's biography in case you chose a Half-Orc, and it says the mother was an "orcish caravan guard". :\ If you choose an Elf or a Half-Elf it does specify that she was either an Elf or a Half-Elf instead of just saying Elvish. So... I have no idea which one of us is right. Maybe someone with more knowledge of D&D could answer.

    @ThacoBell Ah yes, I see your point now.
    themazingness
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 161
    edited October 20
    Thank you so much for your insight @AndrewFoley :) That does explain a lot.
    JuliusBorisovThacoBellAndrewFoley
  • rede9rede9 Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,126
    edited October 22
    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have *laid with goblins?

    LAIN. I meant lain. Forgive my bad English.

    Post edited by rede9 on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,410
    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have *laid with goblins?

    LAIN. I meant lain. Forgive my bad English.

    Both work just as well.
    tbone1
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 211
    edited October 23
    ThacoBell said:

    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have *laid with goblins?

    LAIN. I meant lain. Forgive my bad English.

    Both work just as well.
    Technically, @rede9 was correct to fix it. But if you go by usage-based linguistics both are fine. Then again, usage is how we get nonsense like literally=figuratively.
    Post edited by themazingness on
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,156

    Then again, usage is how we get nonsense like literally=figuratively.

    I have literally killed people over that.
    themazingnessscriverMirandelSkatan
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 23
    I haven't played Throne of Bhaal but isn't there a chicken bhaalspawn? Goblins are at least humanoid.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,410

    ThacoBell said:

    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have *laid with goblins?

    LAIN. I meant lain. Forgive my bad English.

    Both work just as well.
    Technically, @rede9 was correct to fix it. But if you go by usage-based linguistics both are fine. Then again, usage is how we get nonsense like literally=figuratively.
    Language evolves over time, while the correction is technically more correct rules wise, english violates its own rules more than it follows them. Heck the US and UK both technically use english but have enough differences in use that it can cause slight confusion. Not mention spelling that correct in one country can be considered incorrect in another.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,365
    ThacoBell said:

    ThacoBell said:

    rede9 said:

    rede9 said:

    Could Bhaal have *laid with goblins?

    LAIN. I meant lain. Forgive my bad English.

    Both work just as well.
    Technically, @rede9 was correct to fix it. But if you go by usage-based linguistics both are fine. Then again, usage is how we get nonsense like literally=figuratively.
    Language evolves over time, while the correction is technically more correct rules wise, english violates its own rules more than it follows them. Heck the US and UK both technically use english but have enough differences in use that it can cause slight confusion. Not mention spelling that correct in one country can be considered incorrect in another.
    One day Americans will learn how to speak proper.
    Then we can sort the spelling out.

    We can but dream. ;)
    ThacoBell
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,156

    One day Americans will learn how to speak proper.

    Properly dear. It’s an adverb.

    [ducks back into bomb shelter]

    By an odd coincidence, I started reading Mencken’s The American Language recently for the first time in years. It’s a very interesting book, though a bit dated now, but I do really recommend it.
    ThacoBellArtona
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 1,365
    tbone1 said:

    One day Americans will learn how to speak proper.

    Properly dear. It’s an adverb.

    [ducks back into bomb shelter]

    By an odd coincidence, I started reading Mencken’s The American Language recently for the first time in years. It’s a very interesting book, though a bit dated now, but I do really recommend it.
    Gor Blimey me old china, wot you saying, I ain't got no learning or som'fink?
    tbone1ThacoBellthemazingnessdeltago
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,156

    tbone1 said:

    One day Americans will learn how to speak proper.

    Properly dear. It’s an adverb.

    [ducks back into bomb shelter]

    By an odd coincidence, I started reading Mencken’s The American Language recently for the first time in years. It’s a very interesting book, though a bit dated now, but I do really recommend it.
    Gor Blimey me old china, wot you saying, I ain't got no learning or som'fink?
    Y’all ain’t got no problem, if y’know what Ah’m sayin’.


  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,410
    tbone1 said:

    tbone1 said:

    One day Americans will learn how to speak proper.

    Properly dear. It’s an adverb.

    [ducks back into bomb shelter]

    By an odd coincidence, I started reading Mencken’s The American Language recently for the first time in years. It’s a very interesting book, though a bit dated now, but I do really recommend it.
    Gor Blimey me old china, wot you saying, I ain't got no learning or som'fink?
    Y’all ain’t got no problem, if y’know what Ah’m sayin’.


    árísan mín efen B)

    (Please forgive atrocious grammar. Rough translation)
  • GodGod Member Posts: 1,027
    How about a bear Charname? There is a bear NPC... :D
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 211
    God said:

    How about a bear Charname? There is a bear NPC... :D

    That would be bearable.
    ThacoBellDev6UnderstandMouseMagic
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 3,410

    God said:

    How about a bear Charname? There is a bear NPC... :D

    That would be bearable.
    Possibly even claws for alarm.
    themazingnessDev6UnderstandMouseMagic
  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 161
    ThacoBell said:

    God said:

    How about a bear Charname? There is a bear NPC... :D

    That would be bearable.
    Possibly even claws for alarm.
    I want a barbearian charname.
    themazingnessThacoBellUnderstandMouseMagic
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,487
    I would take a bear pc before I would a goblin, that's for certain.

    But they'd have to make every dialogue choice "rraAAAAAAAWWWWRRRRHHh" though.
    Dev6
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,156
    scriver said:



    But they'd have to make every dialogue choice "rraAAAAAAAWWWWRRRRHHh" though.

    That’s still more intelligent than the 2016 presidential debates.
    ThacoBellDev6
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member Posts: 211
    tbone1 said:

    scriver said:



    But they'd have to make every dialogue choice "rraAAAAAAAWWWWRRRRHHh" though.

    That’s still more intelligent than the 2016 presidential debates.
    Yeah, they were unbearable.
    Dev6tbone1UnderstandMouseMagic
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