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It's too bad we don't have a Ravenloft Infinity Engine game

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  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    @Fardragon TBH, this is tantamount to saying all fantasy is the same. And Eberron is hardly Forgotten Realms. You might as well have said Dark Sun=Star Wars.

    subtledoctorThacoBell
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2017

    @Fardragon TBH, this is tantamount to saying all fantasy is the same. And Eberron is hardly Forgotten Realms. You might as well have said Dark Sun=Star Wars.

    I'm quoting official D&D sources.

    Eberron has steam punk trappings, and you can travel by airship, but you could still tell the same story as Baldur's Gate by changing a couple of names.

    And Eberron is much less like the Forgotten Realms than Krynn is. A tree is a tree, a sword is a sword. Even a lightsabre is still a sword, just with different graphics.

    There is only one monomyth, and most fantasy sticks to it pretty closely. Which is where Ravenloft comes in. You can tell a gothic story in the Forgotten Realms, or Krynn, but it would go against audience expectations. Labelling a game "Ravenloft" tells the audience not to expect to go on the same old Hero's Journey.

    brunardo
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    @Fardragon Ah, I see what you are getting at. I misunderstood what you were arguing :D.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,469
    edited October 2017
    FR and Mystara have airships as well... so they must be steampunk! Clearly the same as Eberron! Why even bother writing different stories about different people with different experiences in different places?? It's all the same!

    Like, clearly German folk tales and Irish fairy tales and Welsh myths and Arthurian legends and Norse sagas are all identical, because they all involve people using swords and spears, and they all take place in temperate climates. Why even tell different stories? Why have different cultures? There's no difference, right?

    I mean, why make any new games at all? Forget characters, stories, goals, structure... if it's set in a temperate clime and it have medieval-ish technology, then it's the same as BG and people should just play BG.

    Somebody call the game industry - let them know they can stop now.
    Fardragon said:

    You could set it during the period when clerics get no spells, ... But not many would choose to play with a gimped cleric.

    How about: you wouldn't play a cleric. Can't. No NPC clerics either. No temples. No nothing related to the gods. The story wouldn't involve gods, it would have no god-begotten characters, no one ascending to godhood, none of that.

    OMG I just described something markedly different from FR. Whaaaat [brain melts]

    ThacoBell
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2017
    I don't think completely cutting one of the core classes (plus druids, paladins and rangers, since they also cast divine spells) would be considered an acceptable use of the D&D licence.


    There are settings with "atheist" divine casters - Dark Sun, or where the influence of the gods is diminished - Ravenloft, but it sure aint Krynn, which is as much tied up with stories about gods as FR or any Greek or Norse myth.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Settings being interchangeable is pretty much cash-grab, its not really ideal, but D&D is already niche, let alone each setting. :s The core storys are not interchangeable, and some settings have very different monsters.

    You can't use Krynn Draconians as orcs, even if they serve some similar purposes story-wise.

  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    edited October 2017
    And I think that's what it comes down to. Of course you can draw similarities between settings. They're fantasy. And of course there are differences. If there is a different setting it is to tell a different story.

    I respect that Krynn is a lot more like Forgotten Realms than Ravenloft is. That argument makes sense.

    But not all players are looking for something completely different. I love Planescape: Torment because it is vastly different. One of my favorite games growing up was Al-Qadim because the setting is something that always intrigued me, and it was cool to play an RPG in an Arabian world. But sometimes I just get the classic fantasy itch too. And sometimes I just don't want that to be Forgotten Realms, and sometimes I do.

    To me, Krynn is a nice departure. I realize it isn't for everyone. But sometimes you just get sick of hearing about Lolth and Drow. Sometimes you need something different than the Sword Coast. That doesn't mean you are looking for something as drastically different as say, Fallout. Sometimes you just need a different classic fantasy setting.

    (BTW, if I had to choose between Ravenloft and Dragonlance for an Infinity Engine game, it would still be Ravenloft because we have had so much Forgotten Realms. But I would absolutely love both to be done).

    subtledoctor
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The current marketing approach seems to just brand as D&D. The "Forgotten Realms" logo is absent even from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and has sidebars on how to adapt the material to Greyhawk, Eberron and Krynn. Likewise Curse of Strahd doesn't use the Ravenloft logo. I assume they feel the brand isn't currently big enough to support sub-brands.

    And what I would like to see is a different sort of story, regardless of setting. But I think departing from the monomyth is actually a very risky proposition, and tends to elicit WTF complaints from some people when the story cogs don't move just the way they where expected too (see SoD).

  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    Fardragon said:

    The current marketing approach seems to just brand as D&D. The "Forgotten Realms" logo is absent even from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, and has sidebars on how to adapt the material to Greyhawk, Eberron and Krynn. Likewise Curse of Strahd doesn't use the Ravenloft logo. I assume they feel the brand isn't currently big enough to support sub-brands.

    And what I would like to see is a different sort of story, regardless of setting. But I think departing from the monomyth is actually a very risky proposition, and tends to elicit WTF complaints from some people when the story cogs don't move just the way they where expected too (see SoD).

    Except people love PS:T. I agree they don't necessarily need to brand it according to setting anymore. D&D is branding enough.

    Departing from the Forgotten Realms norm isn't necessarily going to hurt either. For example, many DDO players don't even like the Forgotten Realms content and stick with Eberron. The high-fantasy setting just doesn't appeal to them. And I know many D&D players like a change, even if Forgotten Realms is their favorite setting. I personally love the Forgotten Realms. I just also like variety.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    People love PST, but it was a commercial flop at time of publication.

  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    edited October 2017
    Fardragon said:

    People love PST, but it was a commercial flop at time of publication.

    True. Which is one reason why I agree about branding.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 993
    Fardragon said:

    People love PST, but it was a commercial flop at time of publication.

    Flop is too strong a word. It made a Profit, just a small one compared to other Infinity Engine Games. I Think 400k Worldwide vs 1 mil die bg1.

    It was a larger success with more sales than both Fallout 1+2.

    ThacoBell
  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    Ammar said:

    Fardragon said:

    People love PST, but it was a commercial flop at time of publication.

    Flop is too strong a word. It made a Profit, just a small one compared to other Infinity Engine Games. I Think 400k Worldwide vs 1 mil die bg1.

    It was a larger success with more sales than both Fallout 1+2.
    I'm curious, how has PS:T EE done? I imagine since we live in the age of digital games, it is easier for them to do well with services like GoG and Steam having so much weight. I don't think a fresh game from Beamdog would flop unless it were just poorly done.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It's a complex equation. The Original PST did flop: whilst it eventually sold enough to cover development costs, it didn't make sufficient return on the investment. Say something costs $100K to develop, it needs to make a return on that investment to be considered profitable. 20% would be reasonable, remembering that bank loans may need to be paid off. so it's not enough for sales to reach $100K, it needs to reach $120K or investors will be unhappy. The point of the EEs is development costs are very low: say $5K. Thus they only need to make $6K in sales.

  • Abby_ZeroAbby_Zero Member Posts: 68
    It’s not impossible to travel between alternate prime material planes as radically different as Toril and Krynn
    Just impractically improbable

    A Ravenloft game would be awesome

  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 514
    castle ravenloft was such a success it'd be hard to see them not make a big profit and theyre trying it again with revised tabletop and ddo expansion...

    themazingness
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    chimeric said:

    Fardragon said:

    I don't see the point in a Krynn setting. It is just another generic fantasyland like FR, but with added tweeness. When the novels where popular the name would help sales, but no-one apart from hard-core fans reads them now.

    Dragonlance was original. The three orders of wizards and the three moons were not stolen from anywhere, Paladine and Takhisis and Gilean (Astinus) were distinct and likeable characters. Fizban was a sort of senile Gandalf, it's true. But the Dragon Orbs? The Solamnic Knights? Lord Soth? The High Clerist Tower and the sunken Istar in the maelstrom? And the Ice Wall? The nightmare in Silvanesti? Kender? Mt. Nevermind and the gnomes? Gully dwarves?? I won't even take up Raistlin - probably the single most convincing character in popular fantasy. His relationship with Caramon crossed the line into real literature. But originality is not even what first comes to mind when I recall Dragonlance. It's nobility and harmony. That setting is solid - not a collection of 30s Bela Lugosi spooks like Ravenloft.





    And if I see one more game about Things With Tentacles, I'm going to vomit. Developers haven't even read Lovecraft, it seems, just heard of him. Now lord Dunsany, perhaps... But who can make a game off real books, anyway? It's easily rippable tropes that they are after.
    Paladine and Takhisis are basically Bahamut and Tiamat with different names and Raistlin is a pastiche of Anakin Skywalker and Elric of Melnibone.

  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,425
    I would love a horror RPG where you go around the Demiplane of Dread fighting vampires, mummies and flesh Golems. To say nothing of the Dark Powers checks.

  • themazingnessthemazingness Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 555
    edited May 2018
    Well, since the thread has been necroed, I have to say DDO's Mists of Ravenloft is very well done. It was good enough to get me back into DDO. I'd even say it is my favorite quest pack that I've played.

    And the nice thing is it doesn't overdo it with Strahd or even undead in general which is big for me. I didn't really care for Necropolis or the House Jorasco quests that were undead overload after a while.

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