Magic in BG and Forgotten Realms

johntyl

Hi guys, ive got a question regarding the casting of magic in the world of BG and the greater world of FR.

In BG, when spellcasters like priests, clerics or mages cast spell, they murmur incantations, which if i didn't recall wrongly, are in Latin. (See here for eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcu4KFZOKtM)

1) My first question being: Is this also the case in the rest of the FR world, or is it only unique to BG? If it's the latter, then what kind of language do spellcasters use in the FR or even D&D in general?

2) My second question relates to the difference between priests and wizards/mages.
Correct me if I'm wrong, priests can only cast their spells by chanting a prayer to their respective god. So, should they be fallen (ie. a priest who lost their god's favour), they won't be able to cast any spells. Is that right?

Whereas for wizards/arcanists in general, they do not draw their powers from their respective deities but from the Weave (or Shadow Weave). Which explains why in the novel "Elminster: The Making of a Mage", Mystra has to enlist the help of Elminster (or select her Chosen) to defeat unruly magelords. Mystra cannot directly disconnect spellcasters' access to the Weave, no matter how much she disapproves of their actions. Is that correct? Hope that makes sense! Thanks.

Contemplative_Hamster

Don't overthink it . It's just sound effects for a computer game.

Dev6

rrchristensen said:

Don't overthink it . It's just sound effects for a computer game.

He's asking perfectly legitimate questions.

killerrabbit

@johntyl

No the language is the (unnamed) language of magic that is usually transcribed in draconic, elvish or high netherese.

(but who knows, it seems that high netherese = english so perhaps magic is latin -- but that's not official)

Mystra can cut anyone off from the weave but is very reluctant to do so -- her reluctance was never explained. In my head cannon I imagined that every part of the weave that is cut off equals a gain for the shadow weave.

Fallen priests cannot cast spells unless they find a new deity. In 1st ed falling from favor / changing gods resulted in a loss of two levels. In 3rd there was no level loss but an option to add a class that steals prayer powers from other gods.

ThacoBell

@killerrabbit I recall that one of the Mystras (yes there have been multiple) was good aligned and cut off the weave to evil people, Ao didn't approve and smacked her down. So the current Mystra is either neutral now and doesn't care, or is afraid Ao getting ticked off again. Really you can chalk up almost every instance of a god's actions not matching their alignment, or being jerks in general is all Ao's fault.

SethDavis

There's no citations in the wiki, but there seems to have been a point where Kelemvor and Mystra were heavily favoring good people, but since their roles are pretty key to keeping things in balance it pissed off higher up gods. Apparently "Incompetence by Humanity" is a thing among gods.

(godhood section of http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kelemvor)

ThacoBell

If by "incompetence" you mean "Ao got pissy" then yes

scriver

AO doesn't give a shit about petty mortal conflicts of evil and good - to him they're just two sides of a coin, and he is the coin. Can't be interrupted by the A fighting the O while the AO is trying to keep Cthulhu and other Far Realm inhabitants from invading and tearing up reality.














Okay so that last part was made up.

johntyl

@ThacoBell

Interesting. So innately, she is good-aligned but she is forced to be True Neutral?

ThacoBell said:

Ao didn't approve and smacked her down. .

Do you have a source for that? I'm quite intrigued to find out more.

Also, there's one thing that has been nagging at me for some time. Do all the different deities draw power from their own celestial bodies or do they also have to gain access to the Weave to use Magic? I'm referring specifically to the Time of Troubles when the gods walk Faerun.

And when priests cast spells they have to chant prayers to their respective gods, but when sorcerers or arcanists cast spells they can simply weave magic and NOT have to pray to Mystra?

Thanks for all the help guys, @killerrabbit @ThacoBell @SethDavis

SethDavis

johntyl said:

Do all the different deities draw power from their own celestial bodies or do they also have to gain access to the Weave to use Magic?

If you want to get super technical, I'm not 100% sure that deities actually use magic. What I've seen suggests that they channel the faith put in them to warp reality.

johntyl said:

And when priests cast spells they have to chant prayers to their respective gods

Depends on what you're reading. I don't think I've heard of a priest using the weave(s), but I have read a few books where the priest simply asks instead of chanting, or even just gestures if their god is paying them particular attention.

johntyl said:

but when sorcerers or arcanists cast spells they can simply weave magic and NOT have to pray to Mystra?

I think that's how it works for the weave, but the shadow weave may be slightly different. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Weave implies that you have to at least deal with Shar or have your deity do so, but leaves an interesting loophole for being crazy. That said, I don't know if the shadow weave is a thing anymore.

ThacoBell

@johntyl There have been more than one Mystra and at least one of them was a good aligned human filling a neutral goddess' portfolio. I forget exactly where I read this. It may have been in one of the older Forgotten Realms lore threads that have been buried, or it may have been one of the Elminster novels.

Redrake

ThacoBell said:

@johntyl There have been more than one Mystra and at least one of them was a good aligned human filling a neutral goddess' portfolio. I forget exactly where I read this. It may have been in one of the older Forgotten Realms lore threads that have been buried, or it may have been one of the Elminster novels.

The first Elminster novel, features a Mystra which focuses more towards good aligned spellcasters. She emphasizes on love for magic and not the use of magic as an purpose of obtaining benefits from it.

That Mystra died during the Time of Troubles and then Midnight took over her essence and became the new Mystra. Also, focused at first towards good, by trying to block all evil mages from the Weave, but in the end after the Crucible she became a true god of magic with a free for all portfolio, more towards neutral aligned.

That Mystra died too, at the start of Plague of Spells, due to Shar and Cyric manipulations. The new Mystra that emerged 100 years later is just without a story, as WotSC were still trying to recover from the blunder that was Spellplague and 4E.

I was an active member of D&D boards back when 4E was first proposed and the people working on it talked with the community about their improvements. A lot of people warned them that their decisions are going to negatively affect the franchise. They didn't listen. 5E is the result of their attempt to return to the older rules and revoke all the inanities introduced with 4E.

Ammar

SethDavis said:

If you want to get super technical, I'm not 100% sure that deities actually use magic. What I've seen suggests that they channel the faith put in them to warp reality.

Little bit of both. When Mystra cut Cyric off from the Weave for a while (this is what she got in trouble) it at least severely weakened him.

BelgarathMTH

A word about that video @johntyl posted: I highly recommend checking out @MagpieRandoms channel on YouTube. She has all kinds of Baldur's Gate topics that are very interesting, and she is producing a mini-documentary about the Siege of Dragonspear controversy that presents a calm, reasoned set of opinions about it, after the turbulent emotions surrounding it have died down. She carefully documents a timeline of exactly what happened and why she thinks it happened.

ThacoBell

@Redrake Thank you for the additional detail.

johntyl

ThacoBell said:

@johntyl There have been more than one Mystra and at least one of them was a good aligned human filling a neutral goddess' portfolio. I forget exactly where I read this. It may have been in one of the older Forgotten Realms lore threads that have been buried, or it may have been one of the Elminster novels.

I actually just started on the Elminster novels so will keep u in the loop if I chance upon the details

johntyl

Redrake said:

I was an active member of D&D boards back when 4E was first proposed and the people working on it talked with the community about their improvements. A lot of people warned them that their decisions are going to negatively affect the franchise. They didn't listen. 5E is the result of their attempt to return to the older rules and revoke all the inanities introduced with 4E.

I'm a newcomer at the D&D board games and tbh I don't where to start with all the Editions here and there and some conflicting one another. Will it be enough if I just read up on 5E?

johntyl

@BelgarathMTH I went to check out her youtube channel and indeed it's quite amazing. Thanks for that!:)

scriver

johntyl said:

Redrake said:

I was an active member of D&D boards back when 4E was first proposed and the people working on it talked with the community about their improvements. A lot of people warned them that their decisions are going to negatively affect the franchise. They didn't listen. 5E is the result of their attempt to return to the older rules and revoke all the inanities introduced with 4E.

I'm a newcomer at the D&D board games and tbh I don't where to start with all the Editions here and there and some conflicting one another. Will it be enough if I just read up on 5E?

Enough for what?

Redrake

scriver said:

johntyl said:

Redrake said:

I was an active member of D&D boards back when 4E was first proposed and the people working on it talked with the community about their improvements. A lot of people warned them that their decisions are going to negatively affect the franchise. They didn't listen. 5E is the result of their attempt to return to the older rules and revoke all the inanities introduced with 4E.

I'm a newcomer at the D&D board games and tbh I don't where to start with all the Editions here and there and some conflicting one another. Will it be enough if I just read up on 5E?

Enough for what?

Indeed. When it comes to board games, you need to know first what other players are using, then if you want to learn the ruleset you usually stick to just one edition.

I suspect he meant the lore of the Forgotten Realm setting. Is easy for newcomers to confuse the Rulesets with the general setting of the world.

I have yet to try (and I doubt I ever will) to play 5E, but I did read partially the ruleset and some of the lore. IMO the easiest Edition for a newcomer is 3E.

chimeric

I don't know if this doesn't appear somewhere above in one of the posts, but I recommend everyone to use the original incantations from BG1. There is a mod that restores those spell sounds. They were not in any freaking Latin, and I've had them installed for so long, I shudder at the thought of hearing the language of the Romans in my Forgotten Realms game again.

Redrake

chimeric said:

I don't know if this doesn't appear somewhere above in one of the posts, but I recommend everyone to use the original incantations from BG1. There is a mod that restores those spell sounds. They were not in any freaking Latin, and I've had them installed for so long, I shudder at the thought of hearing the language of the Romans in my Forgotten Realms game again.

Interesting, but off-topic. I did not realize that EE also took out the sounds. Nowadays, I am playing the games (BG1 and IWD) without sounds as they might tempt my baby girl to see what's what.

If true, as I remember they always were in latin, like for example that Vita Mortis Careo, a cleric casts when healing.

BelgarathMTH

Redrake said:

chimeric said:

I don't know if this doesn't appear somewhere above in one of the posts, but I recommend everyone to use the original incantations from BG1. There is a mod that restores those spell sounds. They were not in any freaking Latin, and I've had them installed for so long, I shudder at the thought of hearing the language of the Romans in my Forgotten Realms game again.

Interesting, but off-topic. I did not realize that EE also took out the sounds. Nowadays, I am playing the games (BG1 and IWD) without sounds as they might tempt my baby girl to see what's what.

If true, as I remember they always were in latin, like for example that Vita Mortis Careo, a cleric casts when healing.

The original BG1 had completely different spell incantations. For Cure Light Wounds, it sounded something like "Agua een maher". The rhythm and intonation of each incantation was also very different. The different spell school incantations were varied, and didn't all follow the three Latin word formula.

Dev6

BelgarathMTH said:

Redrake said:

chimeric said:

I don't know if this doesn't appear somewhere above in one of the posts, but I recommend everyone to use the original incantations from BG1. There is a mod that restores those spell sounds. They were not in any freaking Latin, and I've had them installed for so long, I shudder at the thought of hearing the language of the Romans in my Forgotten Realms game again.

Interesting, but off-topic. I did not realize that EE also took out the sounds. Nowadays, I am playing the games (BG1 and IWD) without sounds as they might tempt my baby girl to see what's what.

If true, as I remember they always were in latin, like for example that Vita Mortis Careo, a cleric casts when healing.

The original BG1 had completely different spell incantations. For Cure Light Wounds, it sounded something like "Agua een maher". The rhythm and intonation of each incantation was also very different. The different spell school incantations were varied, and didn't all follow the three Latin word formula.

That's quite interesting, is there a youtube video or something like that where we can listen to both versions for comparison?

BelgarathMTH

@Dev6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_7gzmJVxLc

scriver

God, I've been a ballerina for so long iv e forgotten what those sounded like.

They're pretty awesome.