Premium modules - why extra?
modestvolta
Member Posts: 108
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that the premium modules (at least not all of them) will not be included in the base game. Has any reason been given for that decision?
With the talk of old modules maintaining capability, it seems little work was needed to get these modules working in the game, so charging extra seems like the entirely wrong decision. I also saw where if you owned the old modules, you could play them in the new game without repurchasing, which again makes it seem like they didn't require much effort to get working.
Even without touching the graphics (yes, I know there are a lot of models/textures and compatibility would have to be maintained, but if a thing's worth doing...), this would have been a day one purchase for me, but this pushes me in the other direction.
As a lurker who mainly white knights for Beamdog offline, the up-charge on already created content rubs me the wrong way. I'm curious what the rest of the community's thoughts are or if I'm entirely off-base.
With the talk of old modules maintaining capability, it seems little work was needed to get these modules working in the game, so charging extra seems like the entirely wrong decision. I also saw where if you owned the old modules, you could play them in the new game without repurchasing, which again makes it seem like they didn't require much effort to get working.
Even without touching the graphics (yes, I know there are a lot of models/textures and compatibility would have to be maintained, but if a thing's worth doing...), this would have been a day one purchase for me, but this pushes me in the other direction.
As a lurker who mainly white knights for Beamdog offline, the up-charge on already created content rubs me the wrong way. I'm curious what the rest of the community's thoughts are or if I'm entirely off-base.
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Comments
Capitalism
The BioWare modules were/are available on fan sites for free, but the position here is that they exist (on fan sites) in sort of a legal gray area.
To someone who already owned the diamond edition and those premium modules, they may question why they are re-buying them.. *shrugs*
Could be miscommunication.
The whole world is based around buying things you've already bought before or paying to have stuff repaired.
An example is you bought a car but they got old and repairs will cost you $1000 but the car cost $40k would you really QQ that the mechanic down the street from you (that has nothing to do with the company that made the car) that repaired it should just give you $1000 of their money by fixing the car free because you already bought the car 15 years ago? That's basically whats being said to beamdog here.
Each of the OC, SoU, HotU is about $60 each new right? Before they came in combo packs and price dropped after years xD so they are fixing up maybe $180-$250 worth of game and premium modules and selling it for $20-$40
I do however agree the $20 is a bit much extra for premium modules (base games too cheap) I feel the base NWN EE should be $30 or $40 and the deluxe $10 more
Maybe Beamdog can get a TF2 hat crossover.
@Peteed1985 I don't disagree with your overall point, though, although I think the $20 price for NWN:EE is fine.
Will I retain ownership of the premium modules I purchased from BioWare?
If you already have the premium modules (Wyvern Crown of Cormyr, Pirates of the Sword Coast, or Infinite Dungeons), they will function properly in Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition.
Instead you include them in the digital deluxe edition as extra.
But if you had those modules in first place they will work on EE version of NWN.
I think it's bit of shady move - just include everything in the regular package of the EE and add the new unique stuff (portraits, extra soundtrack, other goodies) in the deluxe edition.
I'm big big NWN1 fan and I wanted to support beamdog on this so I got the deluxe edition anyway but you understand most people will just get the 20$ version and use those copies of the modules available online so there is no real benefit for those to be included only in the digital deluxe EE version of the game.
As an aside, I've bought every enhanced edition. I've only played BG. The other purchases were primarily to support a company doing this work for games I loved growing up. To me, charging extras for the already available premium modules feels like a money grab, which is making me decide to hold onto my cash until/if I have time to play. That's not a fair analogy at all. The mechanic is performing work to repair the car. The three premium modules I'm referring to aren't being touched by Beamdog in any way, other than to provide a trusted download (which is great!), but is is that much extra work to provide those downloads when they're already hosting the rest of the game? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.
To be clear, I'm not saying Beamdog's work on the EE should be free. I think they should be compensated, and $20 is a great price for that work. However, they're not doing any work on the premium modules while selling those as an extra. That's where I'm rubbed the wrong way. What I think is a more fair mechanic analogy is if you went and got your car fixed and the mechanic forgot to put your baby seat back (why did they take your baby seat out? I don't know; roll with me though). To get that baby seat back, you just need to pay another $10.
I don't think the original selling price of NWN is really relevant to the enhanced edition price (for what's it worth I owned all of the original content; was it bought at full list price? I don't know. I'd have to ask Santa...). I can't imagine any of Beamdog's costs are associated with developing the original content, so they don't need to recoup those costs. Beamdog should be paid for the improvements to the engine, but tacking on charges for a product they're admittedly not working on, and which are already available elsewhere? No thanks for now.
@Googleness sums up my thoughts pretty well.
Second Caveat: I'm @JuliusBorisov here so he can give what I say next a complete thumbs up confirmation. IF HE DOES NOT CONFIRM WHAT I SAY IGNORE IT. He is FAR and AWAY a better authority. (Just because I'm blue doesn't mean I know everything there is to know about Beamdog or licensing. I am NOT the official spokes person...:) )
There are multiple TIERS of modules here.
1) The modules that make up the Original Campaign and Expansions:
* NWN Campaign
* NWN: Shadows of Undrentide
* NWN: Hordes of the Underdark
2) There are modules that in the DIAMOND EDITION of NWN shipped under the "Premium Neverwinter Nights Modules" section of the interface:
* Neverwinter Nights - Kingmaker
* Neverwinter Nights - ShadowGuard
* Neverwinter Nights - Witch's Wake
3) There are OTHER premium modules which were sold separately by Bioware
* Wyvern Crown of Cormyr
* Pirates of the Sword Coast
* Infinite Dungeons
I will refer to these modules as groups "1", "2", and "3".
NWN:EE (the base distribution) includes all modules in groups 1 and 2 (as per the information above). Those are the modules that were released as part of the Diamond Edition of NWN and were part of any package you would be buying from GoG, Steam or anywhere else pre NWN:EE. (Correct me if I'm wrong here, it's been ages since I installed the GOG Version of NWN).
That leaves the modules in group 3 which (according to information above) are in the Digital Deluxe version of the game.
TO MY KNOWLEDGE
These group 3 modules ARE licensed to Beamdog. They are FULLY owned and Beamdog has every right to update, produce, sell, distribute and/or do what they wish with these modules. If anyone read anything above as "Beamdog does not have the legal right to sell/distribute the modules" AS FAR AS I KNOW that is absolutely incorrect...there is no legal issue with Beamdog distributing the items in group 3.
When, above, "Legal Grey Area" was mentioned, it was in the context of the modules being posted/made available for download publicly, NOT that there was some kind of legal reason Beamdog could not resell the modules.
The reason this is considered a "legal grey area" is because those modules were NOT free originally. And lets be clear about this: Just because Bioware posted those modules on their boards for free download does not negate the fact that those modules are still content owned by Bioware (and now Beamdog). This is the argumentative difference between Free as in Open Source and Free as in Beer. Free (as in beer) does not make an item Free (as in Open Source). To my knowledge (again with the caveat) those modules were NOT released into the public domain via a change to their original license. You cannot take a piece of software from someone and redistribute it (no matter what the cost of the original software, including free) legally. Just because Bioware posted that software on their forums does not mean anyone who downloaded that software has the legal right to re-post that software.
Thus there's the likelihood that anyone who has posted those modules to the public and those downloading those posted modules without paying someone for them (since the Bioware forums are dead) is doing so outside the stated terms of agreement (EULA). The fact that the modules have not been available from the content license holder for quite some time, however, means that there has been no entity to actually go after anyone sharing the modules freely to the public. "Paid for Content" that cannot be paid for or obtained because it is no longer being distributed is a loss to the NWN Community as a whole and thus it appears that a "blind eye" has been turned to those obtaining the group 3 modules from an openly available source.
This does not make the distribution of the Group 3 modules above legally downloadable from random NWN fan sites, though no one is policing this at the moment because you can't GET the content from anywhere official.
As to why Beamdog is charging for them and why the group 3 modules are not being made available freely:
* It is my understanding that NWN:EE is a reproduction of NWN DIamond Edition. Beamdog is selling the Enhanced Edition of the Diamond Content in the base package.
* Beamdog and others on this thread have stated that those of you who have already purchased the group 3 modules will still be able to play those modules on the Enhanced version of the game...thus those of you who own the modules are not being forced to re-purchase something you've already purchased in the past.
* NWN:EE Costs time, money and talent to produce, just like all the rest of Beamdog's EE Games and original releases. Beamdog has put together a price structure that their business model feels is fair for the time, effort and money that has been spent on the reproduction of the game. The group 3 modules were originally additionally paid for content, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for that content to continue to be paid for...if that content was worth additional money originally, I don't see why it's not worth money now...especially since we're not forcing people to re-purchase that content if they already own it.
Again, please take everything above with a grain of salt until Julius comes around and confirms it. That said, if anyone is hesitant to purchase the Digital Deluxe version of the software because you feel that the information above means we're only semi-legally distributing the group 3 modules, please be assured that is NOT the case...at least to my knowledge.
The comments below are given freely and worth every penny you've just paid for them. I do not speak as a representative of Beamdog but as my own person posting on a forum I've enjoyed for a long time.
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People will Just Get the Content Free...so you should just give it to us...
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As to the "well, people are just going to download the stuff for free then..." comments...
As with all "Obtained for free" content in the software industry, there comes a point in each "owner's" use cases where, perhaps, it's time to consider whether your use of the software constitutes a good reason to "give back" to the developers and other staff that produced that content...even if that content is available for free.
If you enjoy the modules above and if those modules "enhance" your NWN Experience (see what I did there?), maybe it's time to consider whether paying for that content helps further the efforts of the community providing that experience.
We all have our own moral code when dealing with software made freely available in the public domain...whether legally or illegally. Whether that software is shareware, freeware, donation-ware, open source, or professional/paid for software, we all have the choice of supporting or not supporting the content license holder when choosing how to use the software.
For most people, there comes a point where the software provides enough value that supporting the content license holder is the right thing to do.
If the Extra Premium Modules get you to that point with NWN, now is a great time to support the content license holder if you haven't already.
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But Beamdog dIdn't "Produce" That content...they Didn't Do Anything...I don't see why they want paid for it.
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To directly address a fallacy I see a lot in various discussions about software around the internet (not just here but everywhere)...to take a quote from above (NOT PICKING ON ANYONE, this language was the best in the thread at summing up the standard opinion):
"The three premium modules I'm referring to aren't being touched by Beamdog in any way, other than to provide a trusted download (which is great!), but is is that much extra work to provide those downloads when they're already hosting the rest of the game? I don't think so, but that's my opinion."
In the software industry license holders do not give up the license to their software (outside of the Open Source Movement) for free. Each license obtainer pays the previous license holder all the way back to the original content creator. Thus, assuming the chain of ownership for these modules (and I don't know this for a fact, but lets just pretend for a second) was "Content Creator" -> Bioware -> Beamdog; this means that Bioware paid the original content creator a sum of money to purchase the rights to those modules, and then began selling those modules. When Beamdog acquired the license rights to sell those modules, they also would have had to have paid a sum to Bioware (in the example above).
EVEN IF Beamdog does absolutely nothing to the modules AT ALL, they have still paid for the license rights to the modules and thus have an out-of-pocket expense to provide those modules to you (license rights are rarely cheap). Asking that they "flush" the money paid to obtain the distribution rights and simply provide that content to you for free because "They didn't put any effort into it" is a fallacy that I see expounded quite a bit in software discussions.
Please understand: if I post a piece of software on my website for free download, that DOES NOT give you the legal right to obtain that piece of software and put it BACK UP on YOUR website for download unless my license agreement allows it. Just because at some point Bioware might have had these modules available for download from their site does not mean it's now "freeware".
* Why should Netflix charge you to watch it's movies? They didn't do anything to produce them.
* Why should Blockbuster charge you a rental fee on Tapes or DVDs? They're not doing anything to produce those DVDs.
* Why should Steam or GoG charge you to play their games? They're not doing anything to those games.
* Why should your local Supermarket charge a markup on their food from the price they pay to the farmers? They're not actually producing the food.
There are hundreds and thousands of examples in business (some good, some bad) where effort is not the only "cost" associated with a product. To be clearer, putting effort into a product is only one of a multitude of ways to add value to that product.
"My Local Supermarket should not be able to charge a markup on eggs because they didn't produce them" was said by no one ever. The fact that you don't have to drive 4 states over to go to the farmer and buy his eggs directly from him is a value add to you the consumer, of course you are going to pay an additional markup in price over what your local supermarket paid. No reasonable person argues this.
However, time and again in the digital goods industries the same thing is said "Well, you didn't make it, so I shouldn't have to pay you for it!"
Redistribution requires rights, those rights are not cheap, and companies are not wrong to ask for you to help them recoup the cost of obtaining those rights and to make a little profit from it, even though they haven't "produced" that product themselves.
Personally, I think Beamdog is being exceptionally fair with how they're handling the Group 3 modules.
And as a final comment
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Beamdog Isn't Developing it, so they're not putting any effort into it.
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As a final point to address:
"I can't imagine any of Beamdog's costs are associated with developing the original content, so they don't need to recoup those costs. Beamdog should be paid for the improvements to the engine, but tacking on charges for a product they're admittedly not working on, and which are already available elsewhere? No thanks for now."
(Again, not trying to pick on anyone in particular, I see this comment a lot).
Development work isn't the only work that goes into the release of a piece of software...I should know, I'm on the QA team.
Just because a piece of code was never touched doesn't mean 10s to 100s of hours weren't put into that piece of code by someone. Marketing the product to you (letting you know it's out there) has a cost. Moderating the forums, setting up betas, releasing the software...that all has a cost.
QA time, even for unmodified pieces of code (to make sure it STILL works) has a cost.
Management, striking licensing deals, the licensing deals themselves...has a cost.
Have you ever looked at a Video Game's credits? BG1 has 30 pages of them. Everyone on all 30 pages of credits for BG1 is AT MINIMUM (even if NOT a direct cost) an opportunity cost / administration cost to Beamdog. Even our completely unpaid volunteer Beta testers (who we are DEEPLY THANKFUL FOR BY THE WAY) are a cost to Beamdog as someone on the staff needs to communicate with them, pass their comments, bugs and ideas up the chain, and manage what is getting tested and when. Every public bug report that gets produced costs someone (and often more than that) time and effort (which directly translates into Dollars out of pocket for Beamdog).
Oh and the bug tracking system? That too has a cost in time, effort and money.
So while you might be correct, no programmer might have changed a single line of code within any of those 3 modules (I don't know that for certain either, I'm simply taking best case scenario for your argument), that doesn't mean that those modules didn't cost a significant portion of Beamdog Time, Money and Effort.
JUST the fact that we can state "those of you who already own the modules can play them on the EE's" should tell you that more than 0 effort was put in and thus there is a real cost to Beamdog to bring them to you.
I don't think any of this work should be free. I think it's fair to expect the base price to include all previously available content.
I'll try to have a more put-together thought later, but I wanted to make sure I took the time to say, point blank, that Beamdog's work should not be free.
P.S. Even though I think we're more likely to agree to disagree, I do appreciate the developer engagement.
What I REALLY wanted, was for them to be editable in the toolset. I hope later updates actually address this.
No one said you should not sell those modules but for the Deluxe edition only to include them is not that good value for the customers.
I bought the Deluxe edition because I wanted to support this project and I've decided to pay the extra cash to help bit not because of those modules, but, if they were published on the Bioware owned official forums and they didn't care about it and they are still available online for free - why not to spice up the deluxe edition with other fancy stuff (artwork, audio, maybe behind the scenes videos on how you transformed NWN to EE etc...) and just include all those original modules in the basic pack.
It's not that I'm preaching against selling those separately but when I (my personal opinion) approached this issue and wanted to choose which edition to get I really couldn't care less about those extra modules and in the end only because I wanted to support Beamdog I paid double for the game (which I've owned like 3-4 times already in previous iterations
so to sum it all up if we like it or not those modules were freely given away with Bioware's own knowledge, when you offer people to pay double for the deluxe and the extra they get is soundtrack (mp3 version) and those 3 modules it does not justify paying double for the game. just my 0.02$.
And in the context of what you're saying (I don't think the extra modules are worth the additional cost of the deluxe edition, more should have been included besides the modules) I can 100% get behind your right to that opinion.
While I may or may not agree with your assessment, I am much more behind "I don't think the Deluxe Edition is a great value for my money" than "I think the modules released by Bioware shouldn't be charged for because Beamdog did nothing with them."
And if that's me misinterpreting what I've read previously in the thread, you have my apologies.
@modestvolta
First off, uber congratulations (late obviously) on the kid, I'm behind you on baby duty "dude" (not attempting to assume your gender as both my kids would say), I had two of them myself years ago (they're teenagers now so it's been a few years)...babies are hard!
I also wanted to tell you I stand behind you in your ability to disagree with how Beamdog has monetized NWN. I do not agree that the base price should have included all available content (including the Bioware Sold Modules) but I do stand behind the way you've presented your disagreement, even if I don't agree with your assessment.
As a long time poster and recent lurker on the forums, I'd just like to PERSONALLY (again, not speaking for Beamdog or it's staff...yadda yadda yadda) thank EVERYONE in this thread (detractors and supporters) for a disagreement that has been kept civilized, above board and well reasoned.
This isn't the only thread on the forums (by far) where disagreements are being kept civil, but it's a great example of one that has.
Thanks everyone.