Any chance the henchmen AI will get an upgrade?
DrHappyAngry
Member Posts: 1,577
I might've missed this and maybe it got addressed already, but since I've started playing the EE, I'm reminded how bad the henchmen AI is. Considering direct control over them is not an option, are there any plans to fix up the AI? I know there are mods for this, but seems like something an Enhanced Edition would have. I also haven't wanted to play around with mods, since it could produce some false bugs with the head start.
For example, in the OC I've had Tomi with me, he'll run way off ahead of my warrior to attack something not even on the screen. When in a big melee, he'll be engaged with an enemy, then decide to attack some random enemy on the other end of the battlefield and provoke an attack of opportunity from everyone. Then the next turn he decides he wants to attack the original target and runs back and gives everyone another chance to hit him.
Casters are a complete liability on core rules. In SOU I've had Deekin tagging along, and he regularly casts burst of wind and confusion, hitting my rogue with them. Even weirder, both him and Xanos will start casting a spell, and then just stop before completing it, then do it again the next round. Sometimes this goes on for the whole fight. Frequently they run right up behind me while I'm engaged in melee with the mobs, just to be close enough so all their spells and ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity.
There's also the the pathfinding and them getting stuck around doors and corners. The pathfinding in the game is a whole other story, though.
For example, in the OC I've had Tomi with me, he'll run way off ahead of my warrior to attack something not even on the screen. When in a big melee, he'll be engaged with an enemy, then decide to attack some random enemy on the other end of the battlefield and provoke an attack of opportunity from everyone. Then the next turn he decides he wants to attack the original target and runs back and gives everyone another chance to hit him.
Casters are a complete liability on core rules. In SOU I've had Deekin tagging along, and he regularly casts burst of wind and confusion, hitting my rogue with them. Even weirder, both him and Xanos will start casting a spell, and then just stop before completing it, then do it again the next round. Sometimes this goes on for the whole fight. Frequently they run right up behind me while I'm engaged in melee with the mobs, just to be close enough so all their spells and ranged attacks provoke attacks of opportunity.
There's also the the pathfinding and them getting stuck around doors and corners. The pathfinding in the game is a whole other story, though.
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Now before anyone says that enhanced AI would unbalance things, I think it reflects the original intention of the designers. I doubt they wanted caster henchmen to kill you or just get stuck in a loop half casting the same spell over and over. Or for mages and ranged users to run right into the melee and provoke attacks of opportunity.
About 'spirit of NWN' - it shoud be module creator's decision how to play that module, not Bioware's/Beamdog's. There are plenty single player modules which are closer in spirit to Baldur's Gate than to NWN's main campaign. And there are players, myself included, who are interested in those kind of modules, not multiplayer.
And, let's face it, even with best henchmen AI, having spellcaster henchman is really annoying. Wasting good spells on easy targets, not healing when needed, etc. Not saying that any custom spells would require to write custom AI to use them correctly.
NWN2 did it right, NWN EE should just do it same way.
Consider, also, that henchman AI improvements could also be used to improve monster AI (including builder options for monster AI) in a way that direct control couldn't.
Monster/opponents AI is quite different then henchmen AI. Monster AI doesn't have any kind of resource management, it ususally uses everything it has, scrolls, potions, etc. I don't want this kind of behaviour on my henchmen. I don't want my cleric to use turn undead on every skeleton I'm fighting with. And creating 'resource aware' AI is much harder then 'use every move I can' AI.
On a different note, judging from the last podcast, it doesn’t seem like party control is something Trent Oster is interested in.
Personally I prefer it because I play more single player games than not... but if that’s not the direction they want to go I imagine that’s not the direction they will go.
Also I don't know how you guys play the Baldur's Gate games, but when I've got direct control over the party, I can dominate the battle field in ways that just aren't possible in the built in NWN campaigns. It would make more of a difference in HOTU where you get more than 1 henchmen, than in the OC and SoU, though.
I also agree about that tactical advantage of having full party control. But at the heart of it, D&D has always been something of a tactical game.
I can say I absolutely remember struggling with some of the battles in the BG series- and finding tactical ways to win them- while I honestly can’t remember a single fight from any of the NWN campaigns.
Plus with the BG series, once you had mastered them, tactics mods made them that much more difficult again.
I'm not sure how beamdog does their testing, but I doubt they just put code out and send it right to the community testers without it undergoing any internal testing beforehand. I would assume like most development studios that they have a QA department that gets a say in what goes out.
When I switch selected character from main to henchman I expect henchmen AI to take control of my main character. The same AI which controls other henchmen. And if I have direct control over my characters I don't need any kind of AI to help me with this.
I'm rather worried that Trent said on stream that they won't be implementing this without asking community how they feel about it, cause I think it's really important feature to have.
Dorna Trapspringer STILL doesn't disarm traps 3/4ths of the game for Shadows of Undrentide.
Companions in HotU will cling to doors in front of them if they detect traps behind said door that is already trapped and locked. Commanding Tomi, "No Tomi! Pick the lock of the DOOR! HOKEY DOKEY HOKEY DOKEY! SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" <- You try going through a 200 hour game. I'm pretty sure the 50th attempt is going to annoy you.
Companions *still* won't heal themselves if injured when out of battle. Dorna was so bad in SoU, she had like 10 critical heal potions on her and all these healing spells, and she still couldn't take the initiative to heal herself.
I mean, c'mon... This was BROKEN. Ty so much JAHEIRA (I before e, except in Jaheira's name!
To the point about resource awareness, I agree that followers need to be more resource aware than enemies, but if resource awareness was the only improvement implemented, I would be sorely disappointed. I mean, good lord, I see enemies cast Darkness and then stand around like "wait, where'd they go?" as though they couldn't comprehend what just happened (with henchmen similarly baffled). So yes, not every follower AI improvement could be used to help monsters, but there's a lot they could both use.
All that said, there is code to take direct control of familiars. I wonder if that code could be used for direct follower control, NWN2/Kotor-style? Even if that works (and it might not), it'd still require some additional UI elements, and the AI would need to take over the player characters, which I don't know if there's code to do. And BG-style simultaneous control of all party members remains totally infeasible.
Trent Oster - Neverwinter Nights was never intended to be a Baldur’s Gate game. Baldur’s Gate poses the question of “what if you were the sole hero of a D&D adventure and you met interesting companion NPCs along the way”. Neverwinter was much more intended to be a collaborative, multiplayer experience. Neverwinter is “what will you do with your character on a D&D Adventure?” The rest of the party was imagined as players thinking the same thing and running their characters on the same adventure. We added companions into NWN to address playing the game as a single class character and needing access to other skillsets to fully enjoy the game. NWN companions can be improved, but we currently have no plans for a BG-style control scheme for companions.
+ http://blog.beamdog.com/2017/12/december-8-livestream-recap.html
Neverwinter Nights is not Baldur’s Gate. Baldur’s Gate is a novel about a single character with companions who join her. Neverwinter Nights is a journey for you and your friends. The concept from the very start was, and still is, that you play Neverwinter Nights in multiplayer with your friends. Neverwinter Nights is core multiplayer, bottom to top, you build your content and share it with other players.
The last thing we want to do is to make Neverwinter Nights into Baldur’s Gate.
(Disclaimer, I’m going to bring up the much reviled, worthless and undeserving game NWN2, which is clearly inferior in all ways except maybe the quick cast bar, so please I beg forgiveness).
I noticed in another part of the forum someone asked if there was a BG or IWD campaign for NWN. As far as I know there is not, though they have been done quite well for NWN2.
One of the reasons, I think, is because of the party mechanic.
In NWN mods are more or less designed to be single player, where it can be completed using a henchman or two, or party based which requires it to be multiplayer.
In NWN2 you can build something that requires a balanced party of 4 to 6 and people can choose to play it single player by running the entire party a la infinity engine games, or multi if they have the time.
Giving people the ability to control party members a la Baldur’s Gate (let’s not mention that most undeserving and unworthy NWN sequel) allows for more latitude in module construction.
And this also brings up a point that I disagree with Trent. The point he made was that the BG series was more like a novel and NWN was more open environment suitable for multi player...
But the vast majority of NWN modules, and particularly the most popular ones, are single player. And due to the fact that they need to be balanced so that any class plus a henchman can complete them, I would argue they tend to be much more novel-like in format.
I think, ultimately, builders have more latitude if they can assume a balanced party for playthrough no matter how someone decides to play it.
Back to NWN2 I guess.
If you update the AI, you'll get people who like Dragon Age - those sorts of games - not shaking their heads when they buy the game. So, in a sense, it's a very lucrative decision although I'm not a Beamdog designer, and I don't know how much it would cost.
Those are just my two cents because I already find the game nearly flawless, but I do remember Trent on the streams saying, "Identify which features didn't work so well, and what we can improve on."