Loosing focus?

NeverwinterWights

The amount of suggestions seems a bit overwhelming. I could only imagine if I worked for Beamdog what I'd be thinking. If we got everything we wanted with all of the suggestions being submitted, including graphics updates, we would basically have ourselves NWN3. That game we've all been wishing and hoping for. Alas, it is an enhanced edition of NWN1. I think we need to remember that when we make our suggestions. Maybe focus mainly on the guts, open the hard coded stuff, increasing resource limits or add new functionality that will reduce resources. The really big oopsies, glitches, and broken things. Systems in place that will make multiplayer and PWs easier to work with. Make it easier for newer players to access as well. Basically all the things, I believe, Beamdog is already working on.

We shouldn't set our hopes too high and expect or suggest, to death, a completely different game or completely different functionality but rather a game that let's us do a little more than we could before, not have to jump through hoops to get things to work and maybe make things a little easier in some areas.

If Beamdog did everything for us, what would be the point of the awesome modding community that has arisen from this game.

I definitely won't be complaining about any bells and whistles added to the game but I'm also not going to expect an NWN3 out of this.

Just my 2 cents.

MadHatter

Game communities tend to simultaneously over and under value their feedback.

Jarrakul

Agreed. I think Beamdog has the right approach, though. They're setting up a system where community ideas can be organized and voted on. Then they can compare community support to resource cost, and approach the problem accordingly. I think they'll do well. I just also think we all have to accept that not all of our personal asks are going to make it into the game.

FreshLemonBun

At least half of the suggestions are already possible in the vanilla 1.69 version or with community enhancements over the last 9 years. It's also easy to separate things like can you add X feat from suggestions to remove/improve specific things that limit the engine.

britishj

The problem i see is beamdog only Enhancing the game for creators and not players. While this may seem like a good idea as the creators will create more content, without considerable improvements to the base game that is visible to the end user, you'll end up splitting the community between the old and new versions of the game. Alot of end users wont come over to the new version based on changes to the code as big as those changes may be.

Why use the new version to make modules with new features when the old version will allow you to make modules that are compatible with both versions giving you a larger audience.

What i'm saying is while this is not a new game and only an enhanced edition, visible improvements to the game are very important too

RifleLeroy

@NeverwinterWights
In fact, you're right to say that some suggestions are useless,some are unachievable,and other suggestions are made by people who have been away too long from the world of nwn and therefore do not know that it is already possible to satisfy their requests through scripts, nwnx, custom content etc. etc, and other materials created by community.
But for now beamdog has put too little on the plate to convince me to re-buy a game 15 years old, for 20 u$d ...(that,i bet, magically will become 20€ for euro players...).
Beamdog we need fix, less hardcoded feature, many new functions, some new classes, and some other stuff (nothing so complicated).

...hope someone got the message.

fkirenicus

I generally agree, but I think it will be a mistake not to update all official content to patch level; i.e. update OC, SoU and HotU to the same patch level, so as to use the same resources (the OC is still flagged as not requiring XP1 and XP2 in the toolset if I'm not mistaken, which means that models and functionality available to the expansion packs is off-limits for the OC) and update the hench system so that the player has more or less full control over the henchman. Like meh69's henchmen version 23a, for example (there you even can tell the henchman to multiclass if you so desire). Also some of the more mediocre (creature) models should be exchanged for new, better ones. And a new texture package should be created, that suits a 2017/2018 system. 32 or 64 MB RAM on the video card is honestly no longer an issue any of us...
Basically, all Beamdog needs to do is focus on making this THE NWN edition people will WANT to use, that way it WILL be a success. They've done it before, I know they can do so again.
Yes, some backward compatibility may be broken, but only for those who don't have all content. If one buys the EE that's not an issue. And I don't suppose it is in Beamdog's interest that their EE .nwms should be played on a system that doesn't have their game installed either...

JuliusBorisov

With these hundreds of suggestions (which we're trying to track in all cases) it's definitely not the easiest time for those in Beamdog who have to decide on NWN:EE-related things.

The upcoming Trello board (with cards based on your amazing feedback) should be a way to move forward.

Doubledimas

RifleLeroy said:

(that,i bet, magically will become 20€ for euro players...)

€16,51 according to my credit card overview.

FreshLemonBun

@britishj You could argue that there are already some splits right now. Between those that play contemporary NWN 1.69 9 years of new content, patches, and updated visuals by the community since the last update, and those that remember what NWN looked like 15 years ago.

I'm going to speculate that things which benefit creators will also benefit everyone. I would be surprised if Beamdog worked in a separate vacuum from the community, so tools Beamdog makes for the community should be tools for Beamdog also.

TrentOster

We have four guiding principles with regards to NWN:
1. Do not break backwards compatibility
2. Don't change, unhardcode, open up for modding/extension and add new functionality
3. Step forward slowly and try to keep it stable
4. New content is king.

What this means is:
We want the game to be able to work with all the old modules. If it worked in 1.69, it should work in 1.7XX

We won't go in and revise systems just to make changes. We'll open those systems and add new functionality on top of what already exists. Sometimes this may require some iteration to do properly.

Have heavy features developed in a branch, off to the side, allowing the main game experience to be reliable even while major new features are in development. Integrate the new improvements slowly and carefully

New content is where all our work will come together to show the future we anticipate for NWN. We cannot revise the existing content due to the sheer mass of content and the risk of bug introduction. (If we changed pathfinding, it could break all the in-game cinematics) But we could make a new pathfinding mode which works only in new content and offers a better experience.

Jarrakul

I really like this approach. I do hope some of it (like helmet hiding, hint hint) gets implemented as player-side options, rather than module-side options, but again, I think Trent and Beamdog have the right approach in general.

Balanor

Helmet hiding is possible since the 8150 update. It is per module though and the necessary scripting for it needs to be setup by the module creator.

Jarrakul

@Balanor I know, and I think that's awesome. But when I play through someone else's module, I'd like to be able to hide my helmet without having to go in and edit the module myself. So I'm really happy to see that functionality, and at the same time, I'd like to have it as a player-side option.

britishj

So all enhancements will be for creators? I take it the official campaighns will not be getting improvements like ai? Thats a disapointment to me however im still looking forward to the roadmap you guys are bringing out hopefully by next stream

Nebrewiel

I suppose a modder or two could implement hiding helmet into for example crafting menu, and then put it on the vault for everyone interested to put into override, similar to how community released an override for players who wanted to make use of ability to customise clothes (CCOR for example).
This wouldn't be a bad approach, the devs are doing the devs stuff, while modders work on putting the goodies from the devs for the masses to enjoy, ensuring faster development

FreshLemonBun

I'm pretty sure a lot of modders want better AI too so their npc's can do more and do it more efficiently without lots of glue and tape holding things together. It's not either players or creators benefit, they both do.

Avenger_teambg

britishj said:

So all enhancements will be for creators? I take it the official campaighns will not be getting improvements like ai? Thats a disapointment to me however im still looking forward to the roadmap you guys are bringing out hopefully by next stream

The creators will make new content. Which is better, an old content facelifted or entirely new content?
Don't think just about modders, but Beamdog or other paid content creators.

@FreshLemonBun : As far as i know, AI is entirely modder/creator territory. The AI isn't hardcoded. And if it was, it would be high time to unhardcode it. Or just streamline scripting so it won't need that much 'glue and tape'. That is entirely part of #2 on Trent's list.

I think, short of real bugs, the OC's shouldn't be touched by Beamdog, and not just because it is not cost-effective. There is always a debate about how much we are allowed to change old content. (See bgee's new npcs, or added kits to IWDEE). If something is really needed, modders will be able to fill the holes and it won't annoy the rest who would insist on the original version.

FreshLemonBun

@Avenger_teambg There are some things from slightly more complex like an alternative improved pathfinding, to simple like fixing some actions to handle all inputs and assign behaviors to an npc that function the same as a pc. Yes right now you can simulate most things by working around the limits and faking npc actions and if nobody knows it's not real then it might be real. It could be made easier tho.

MrDamage

I actually thought this was about losing actual focus lol. Anyone else noticed focus fades in and out when you zoom in out on your pc with nwn EE. Although knowing my ignorance, this is probably intentional. Sorry for thread hijack.