Can't we just merge the required haks into the module file?
Let us edit the 2da/tlk files directly in the Toolset for the module. any such changes should be directly saved in the module.
maybe put larger files like sound/art in a separate file if really neccessery?
and when the module is hosted on a server any joining player should automaticly download the mod, i dont see why hak need to be a separate thing for the stuff required by the server/module.
haks could be used separatly by players for stuff not requred by the server. and for when we wanna import/export stuff between modules.
edit: and make some kind of hak manager in the toolset to let us check for conflicts and stuff when importing.
When opening a module in the toolset, a folder named Temp0 is created with all the contents of the module in it \Documents\Neverwinter Nights\modules\temp0\
why not just make some folders in there for cleaner structure and have the 2da and tlk files in there for example?
Edit: and also show this structure and files in the left sidebar of the toolset, and let us group things into subfolers please
move all resources from the right sidebar into the left sidebar, I don't understand why i have to open an area if i just wanna edit some resources, and all the resources that are used / placed into an area can be moved to the right sidebar instead.
Merging haks into modules would be far more complicated, require far more management, and during every step you would need to unnecessarily import and export a large amount of data. That is as opposed to just downloading haks to the right location.
and when the module is hosted on a server any joining player should automaticly download the mod, i dont see why hak need to be a separate thing for the stuff required by the server/module.
It doesn't work that way, only the current area and its static placeables are sent to the player. The player never gets the entire module.
It would work for singleplayer with some tweaks (currently the resman is wired such that not all resources are looked for in the .mod), but there's little point in this entire feature for singleplayer.
It doesn't work that way, only the current area and its static placeables are sent to the player. The player never gets the entire module.
okay, i was not aware of this, but how big of a change would this be for 2da files for example?
on our server we have made modifications to some 2da files and we dont use any haks, yet some 2da changes we make does work for players without them having to download anything. for example we changed the quarterstaff to count as a double-sided weapon. the tooltip does not change for players but if they look in their character sheet they can see that they get the offhand attacks.
we have also changed the critical properties of many weapons and they work, changed the size of some weapons and that works, changed the prerequisites of classes and that works, changing the number of spell slots a class have for each level and that works.
but some things do not work, like changing the prerequisites of feats, changing the spell level of a spell, changing the spell lists of a class
but i must note that during character creation none of the 2da from the server seems to be loaded, and players can modify their own 2da files and they will get used on the server during character creation, making it possible to cheat
I feel it would be much more convenient as a builder to have all the 2da files in the module rather than the override. same for tlk files.
In the latest stream they talked about something similar to my suggestion in regards to the temp0 folder and its content being opened up for easier collaboration between multiple builders. Thanks Beamdog!
Edit: and as i side note, we refuse to use any hak pak files unless they can be integrated into the module or auto downloaded for players, we want players to be able to connect without any hassle
When the server needs to calculate some game logic (like how a quarterstaff counts) it looks in its own 2DAs. When a client needs to decide what to display, it uses its own 2DAs, such as the levelup screen.
The way to consolidate this difference is to use a hak, it is what they were made for. It's cumbersome without the autodownloader, though. But the change BD should be doing is making the autodownloader, not adding hacks to make our own hacks a bit easier.
As for players "cheating" by putting 2DAs in the override... You must never trust the data received by the player. Either enable ELC, or code your own checks. Otherwise clients can always send you bad data (even modify the network packages directly).
From what I recollect the Beamdog stream did not talk about your suggestion at all, in fact it was the opposite that they suggested, making it more complicated by unpacking all of the module resources and hierarchy into it's constituent components. The idea is that teams can drag and drop single components into a folder and probably use some kind of version software to sync things up. What you suggested was embedding haks into the module file which is adding in even more albeit redundant components. Rather than a single file that manages all of the module resources it will be many single files for each resource.
If you refuse to use any haks unless they can be integrated into the module then you simply refuse to use haks. By adding haks into the module file you don't remove the need to download the haks to the player, you simply increase the file size of your module file for no apparent reason. A player will always have to download any haks you use no matter where you put them, an autodownloader just puts that process on autopilot.
They did say something along the lines that the temp0 contents would have easier access from within the toolset, but its true they didnt say anything about 2da or other custom content in that folder iirc, But would it not be wonderful if we could just put our custom 2da files in that folder? I think it would be great.
the 2da files almost takes up no space so having them auto download when a player connects to the module should not be much of a problem?
and i still don't fully understand why some 2da changes works without players having to download anything.
it feels like some things you do sends a request to the server to get 2da data and some things don't. one example is prerequisites for taking a prestige class works without downloads, but prerequisites for feats does not work without download.
I find that very strange, they are pretty much the same thing. should it not be fairly easy to enable more 2da changes to not require external downloads?
And it would be super convenient if there was a "2da editor" tool in the toolset and we could just handle the 2da's like any other resource in the module.
What I would like to say is that I think you misunderstood because you had this on your mind. Think of module files as an archive of resources, inside that archive are many other resource files that detail different aspects of the module. These include areas, item, monsters, npcs, conversations, scripts and so on. Unpacking the contents of this module archive into a file structure would mean that all of those individual parts are exposed and can be copy and pasted. A 2da or art asset file on the other hand is a modification to the game in some way, whereas a module is not a modification of the game but a composition of the available game assets. A module can use modifications made to the game but it doesn't own or manage those modifications.
When you use CEP you don't have an additional 5gb copy of data for each module installed that uses CEP, instead you just have one copy that makes those modifications available to any module that uses CEP.
If you change a 2da within a module then that 2da would be bound to your module, you would then have 2 copies of the 2da including the original and the module specific copy. If you have 10 modules that modify that 2da you would then have 11 copies even if the 10 copies of the original are all identical because now the module owns the data for no real reason.
Also not every 2da needs to be downloaded because it doesn't modify the client. Where you put the 2da is irrelevant to whether it needs downloading or not. Making a change to the client without downloading or making anything is the same as browsing the internet offline.
Placing a 2da editor inside the toolset isn't that helpful because it's an external resource and you want them to be portable and quick to edit, and because the module doesn't make changes to the game client or game server.
Thanks for clarifying how things work, and I'm not saying that putting these files in the module would automatically work without any changes to the system but rather I'm suggesting making the changes to the system to make it work.
And I'm not saying if a system was implemented so that we could store all assets like 2da etc within the module that you should not be able to import or export them or use an external hak if you still want to.
and I understand that the players don't download the whole module when they connect, but if the assets like 2da etc could be stored in the module the player client could potentially check if they have the assests, and if not auto-download them.
If there was an official tool to edit 2da would it not make sense to put it in the toolset?
"toolsets" from other games like Divine Divinity 2 or Torchlight 2 have all their tools in a single "toolset" iirc
Essentially just downloading a 2da hak would be a small download compared to downloading art assets like new monsters or tilesets. The hak method is still appropriate for this but it would download quite quickly, and if you want to push modified functionality to the client they have to download it at some point. Changing at what point it gets downloaded doesn't change that it must be downloaded, which means it's better to have it downloaded at the start. That's where autodownloading should simplify everything for the player.
Packing external modifications to the internal module just means you will have to unpack or export them to send them to players. It just adds an extra step of complexity.
The unofficial 2da tools I use are quite fast and don't require the toolset open or installed to use it. It also allows me to use the tool for any 2da whichever module it's intended for, without needing to switch between modules. I can also use the same tool to switch between 2das for NWN EE, for the EE development branch, for NWN Diamond Edition, and for NWN2, easily switching between tabs. As far as I can tell it would only add extra steps and extra restrictions to have the editing within the module editor.
If it makes ppl feel comfortable with the editor by including one inside the toolset then that's fine. It would still be better to have an external 2da editor for practical use.
Something I would mention, even if it's small... On our PW we use this tool to get our players what they need for them to play. I've got the idea of using it from @TheAmethystDragon PW
Comments
About server admins that decided to go the "repackage" route you can sleep in the bed you made for all I care...
Let us edit the 2da/tlk files directly in the Toolset for the module. any such changes should be directly saved in the module.
maybe put larger files like sound/art in a separate file if really neccessery?
and when the module is hosted on a server any joining player should automaticly download the mod, i dont see why hak need to be a separate thing for the stuff required by the server/module.
haks could be used separatly by players for stuff not requred by the server.
and for when we wanna import/export stuff between modules.
edit: and make some kind of hak manager in the toolset to let us check for conflicts and stuff when importing.
why not just make some folders in there for cleaner structure and have the 2da and tlk files in there for example?
Edit: and also show this structure and files in the left sidebar of the toolset, and let us group things into subfolers please
move all resources from the right sidebar into the left sidebar, I don't understand why i have to open an area if i just wanna edit some resources, and all the resources that are used / placed into an area can be moved to the right sidebar instead.
I think that would be more intuitive
It would work for singleplayer with some tweaks (currently the resman is wired such that not all resources are looked for in the .mod), but there's little point in this entire feature for singleplayer.
on our server we have made modifications to some 2da files and we dont use any haks, yet some 2da changes we make does work for players without them having to download anything.
for example we changed the quarterstaff to count as a double-sided weapon. the tooltip does not change for players but if they look in their character sheet they can see that they get the offhand attacks.
we have also changed the critical properties of many weapons and they work, changed the size of some weapons and that works, changed the prerequisites of classes and that works, changing the number of spell slots a class have for each level and that works.
but some things do not work, like changing the prerequisites of feats, changing the spell level of a spell, changing the spell lists of a class
but i must note that during character creation none of the 2da from the server seems to be loaded, and players can modify their own 2da files and they will get used on the server during character creation, making it possible to cheat
I feel it would be much more convenient as a builder to have all the 2da files in the module rather than the override. same for tlk files.
In the latest stream they talked about something similar to my suggestion in regards to the temp0 folder and its content being opened up for easier collaboration between multiple builders. Thanks Beamdog!
Edit: and as i side note, we refuse to use any hak pak files unless they can be integrated into the module or auto downloaded for players, we want players to be able to connect without any hassle
The way to consolidate this difference is to use a hak, it is what they were made for. It's cumbersome without the autodownloader, though. But the change BD should be doing is making the autodownloader, not adding hacks to make our own hacks a bit easier.
As for players "cheating" by putting 2DAs in the override... You must never trust the data received by the player. Either enable ELC, or code your own checks. Otherwise clients can always send you bad data (even modify the network packages directly).
If you refuse to use any haks unless they can be integrated into the module then you simply refuse to use haks. By adding haks into the module file you don't remove the need to download the haks to the player, you simply increase the file size of your module file for no apparent reason. A player will always have to download any haks you use no matter where you put them, an autodownloader just puts that process on autopilot.
the 2da files almost takes up no space so having them auto download when a player connects to the module should not be much of a problem?
and i still don't fully understand why some 2da changes works without players having to download anything.
it feels like some things you do sends a request to the server to get 2da data and some things don't.
one example is prerequisites for taking a prestige class works without downloads, but prerequisites for feats does not work without download.
I find that very strange, they are pretty much the same thing. should it not be fairly easy to enable more 2da changes to not require external downloads?
When you use CEP you don't have an additional 5gb copy of data for each module installed that uses CEP, instead you just have one copy that makes those modifications available to any module that uses CEP.
If you change a 2da within a module then that 2da would be bound to your module, you would then have 2 copies of the 2da including the original and the module specific copy. If you have 10 modules that modify that 2da you would then have 11 copies even if the 10 copies of the original are all identical because now the module owns the data for no real reason.
Also not every 2da needs to be downloaded because it doesn't modify the client. Where you put the 2da is irrelevant to whether it needs downloading or not. Making a change to the client without downloading or making anything is the same as browsing the internet offline.
Placing a 2da editor inside the toolset isn't that helpful because it's an external resource and you want them to be portable and quick to edit, and because the module doesn't make changes to the game client or game server.
And I'm not saying if a system was implemented so that we could store all assets like 2da etc within the module that you should not be able to import or export them or use an external hak if you still want to.
and I understand that the players don't download the whole module when they connect, but if the assets like 2da etc could be stored in the module the player client could potentially check if they have the assests, and if not auto-download them.
If there was an official tool to edit 2da would it not make sense to put it in the toolset?
"toolsets" from other games like Divine Divinity 2 or Torchlight 2 have all their tools in a single "toolset" iirc
Packing external modifications to the internal module just means you will have to unpack or export them to send them to players. It just adds an extra step of complexity.
The unofficial 2da tools I use are quite fast and don't require the toolset open or installed to use it. It also allows me to use the tool for any 2da whichever module it's intended for, without needing to switch between modules. I can also use the same tool to switch between 2das for NWN EE, for the EE development branch, for NWN Diamond Edition, and for NWN2, easily switching between tabs. As far as I can tell it would only add extra steps and extra restrictions to have the editing within the module editor.
If it makes ppl feel comfortable with the editor by including one inside the toolset then that's fine. It would still be better to have an external 2da editor for practical use.
[url=https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/worldgate]WorldGate[/url]
Thanks everyone for your feedback!