Let me clarify Mod = Modified or "modded" version of base game. Modders will hak at the original game until it all but disappears and something new comes out. Thus Modders= they who make the Mod. Module = something to download and play solo.
I wouldn't mind a nice base module with modified imps or something ... on toast. This post was about updating the base GAME tho. MrDamage: If you imply that everyone supports the game as-is, why is everyone playing on mods (pws) ? answer: because the base game as supplied by Beamdog may not be adequate for pws with a high epic or legendary playerbase ! It needs to be "modded".
Now this has been going on for 15 years and i would really know how many PLAYERS and modders would like to see something other than PnP traditional ruleset. How many players actually support updating the game to something more playable in terms of computerized videogaming. Or how many players preferr to use the old ruleset. Just to know.
My view is that when an ability is overpowered, they will nerf it down. When most mods nerfed an ability like harm, the same nerf should be applied to the base game for everyone to enjoy. example: Overwhelming crit usually gets disabled. Why not change the ruleset to accomodate the change ?
You are falling into the trap of assuming everyone plays the game like you. Not everyone nerfs Harm, not everyone nerfs Overwhelming Critical, not everyone uses mods, not everyone plays on persistant worlds.
What I look for is is for the game to be as faithful to PnP rules as possible. If I where going to make significant changes I would change to 5e PnP rules, but I'm well aware that isn't possible for both practical and legal reasons, so the only changes I would support are changes to make the game closer to PnP rules, and even then, not at the expense of backwards compatibility.
You are falling into the trap of assuming everyone plays the game like you. Not everyone nerfs Harm, not everyone nerfs Overwhelming Critical, not everyone uses mods, not everyone plays on persistant worlds.
What I look for is is for the game to be as faithful to PnP rules as possible. If I where going to make significant changes I would change to 5e PnP rules, but I'm well aware that isn't possible for both practical and legal reasons, so the only changes I would support are changes to make the game closer to PnP rules, and even then, not at the expense of backwards compatibility.
Maybe you are right. Maybe the nerf crowd are right lets make the game better ! Or do you think the game is good enough and should not be changed even if it were easy to accomplish ?
You are falling into the trap of assuming everyone plays the game like you. Not everyone nerfs Harm, not everyone nerfs Overwhelming Critical, not everyone uses mods, not everyone plays on persistant worlds..
Poor Underwhelming Critical is getting an undeserved bad press here. It's Devastating Critical that gets nerfed. You know, the one thing that stops casters wiping the floor with melee characters while scribing a couple of scrolls and making a wand.
I don't think upgrading the game to 3.5 is likely to happen, nor do I think the devs are likely to disable or nerf options that are popularly disabled or nerfed in PWs.
I'd be all for updated rules, as long as it was faithful to DnD. I love tabletop 5th edition, so seeing NWN getting a bit of an update in that department would be awesome.
If you want a rules change then you must vote on trello for those technical categories to open things up for modders. You might not understand it like this and you might feel compelled to disagree but this is simply the reality of the situation. If you don't go on trello and vote for the things that makes it possible for someone to update and change the rules then you don't want the rules to change.
An example of this is if you don't want proper armor types faithful to D&D such as hide armor, studded leather, or I think scale mail vs chain mail then you wont vote for "armor.2da full customization"
Since only a few ppl vote on things like that it means only a few actually want the rules upgrade or realize what it entails, realize how NWN differs and what problems there are in changing it. If you do want rules upgrades but you're not a modder then just vote for all of the technical sounding nuts and bolts things, most of which is at the back of the trello board.
So it's actually astohishing how PnP players (and that means most of you) have a grip on "their" game as a domain for roleplaying. Maybe some of you haven't noticed, and there is absolutely no offence in the statement, how a large majority of players outside the US never had the chance to play a real PnP game with real role players. I fact, I personally see NWN purely as another MMO fantasy game and i like it because it has action combat. I actually avoid RP servers and can't relate to that kind of gameplay at all. For me, roleplaying is something that can be done during the camp intemezzo and has no great impact on the real game. I wonder whether or not this controversy can lead the game to greater playerbase or would it be bad ?
@Hipster I don't know if you are aware, but the 3rd edition D&D rules where never intended for PvP (according to the people who wrote it). So it's no wonder there are abilities that are not balanced for that application.
To me, the current videogame market seems to be awash with multiplayer PvP games, with rules specifically designed for that. It would be foolish for NWN to try and compete on those terms. I really can't see much of a market outside niche roleplaying for grown-ups and single-player story telling.
Are you saying that a unique ever-expanding system of interconnected fantasy worlds with a lore that draws itself from books ? Generic maps ? Coop gameplay and completely customizable characters ? Is unable to compete with garbage nowadays ? The contrary. Put more love on it !
Yes, I'm saying it hasn't a cat in hell's chance against big budget lowest common denominator games, and if you start changing rules to suit PvP you will loose the role players and the single player adventurers too.
I hate pvp. And all the garbage games out there didn't hold my attention for more than an hour each. I think i tried them all. No, I was talking about PvE and NWN has a core combat system that is completely inert towards rol playing. It should not interfere with role playing at all. Maybe they should put all the non-compatibity issues in an upgraded version (ee1, ee2) so that all the older mods and modules will still be playable.
I don't think upgrading the game to 3.5 is likely to happen, nor do I think the devs are likely to disable or nerf options that are popularly disabled or nerfed in PWs.
This sums it up in my opinion. NWN is set in D&D forgotten realms and the game engine was designed off 3rd edition D&D rules. We all know this. So obviously D&D fans flocked to this title and made it their own. 15 years later because of that there is still a market for this game and it is being redone. Why oh why in heavens name would the devs now ignore all that and alter the whole soul of the game for the sake of improving arcade playability. And here’s the thing, if you really want to do that, YOU ALREADY CAN, with the toolset, no need to trash the base game. This is the reality. Am I a D&D fan? Most certainly. Am I fan of action games. Yes, but none have even come close to the longevity of NWN for me, because it has that D&D component.
The issue is that people can change the game to have different rulesets now. And why force people to have to use a new rule set? Instead have it less hard coded to allow the customization and changes. Remember: this design philosophy isnt to change what exists already. That would break a lot. Its about giving options for the future.
if you really want to do that, YOU ALREADY CAN, with the toolset, no need to trash the base game.
Exactly, and it works, just lovely. But have you seen the manhours that goes into modding it for an Action-based PW ? You haven't ? LOL and LOL. It's a life. Now this d20 rulething could eventually become a standard or something. Even Korean peninsula (South) are already making clones of it. It' just so f.. good.
The original or 3.5 is the best rule set. I would be very disappointing if it would change as that has turned me off of a lot of other D&D games that don't feature the NWN's style multi-classing which I think if was a woman, Harvey Weinstein would be seeking to take a shower in-front of her.
Maybe some of you haven't noticed, and there is absolutely no offence in the statement, how a large majority of players outside the US never had the chance to play a real PnP game with real role players.
It's wrong to say that PnP is very important to most players. Just imagine the potential of MMO ppl (currently millions) who usually are casual players.
It's wrong to say that PnP is very important to most players. Just imagine the potential of MMO ppl (currently millions) who usually are casual players.
Why would they play NWN, when there are hundreds of MMO games aimed at casual players? It's like the purveyors of smoked salmon saying we gotta make it taste like bacon because bacon is eaten by billions.
Moving from 3.0 to 3.5 wouldn't be too much of a change I believe. The 5th edition ruleset is fantastic, that's the one I'm using at my club these days.
5th edition is probably way too much work, not that I've tried it - I went Pathfinder thanks to the abortion that was 4th Ed. I would prefer 3.5 (pretty obviously), but we appear to have already been told that this cannot happen. Not sure why, but presumably some licensing issue. Shame GG wasn't still running D&D.
I don't want more hack/slash engine ability, I want to be able to use GURPS dice rules or progression mechanics or whatever if I want. On top of/in extension of the underlying 3e mechanics. More tabletop-y. More RP-y.
If Gary Gygax was still running the show we would never have left 1st ed.
I doubt so, Gygax himself made many editions of classic D&D.
Besides the 2nd edition isn't THAT different from the 1st, and several concepts from the 2nd edition are present in extension for the 1st (skills are present in Oriental Adventures I believe, I need to double check as I have one here but only use it for oriental races and classes).
He was literally shunted out of control position because he wasn't able to work with the other decision makers regarding 2nd Ed.
I don't think he was literally shunted. LOL. He was removed from TSR, but that seemed to be mostly about the money, rather than creative differences, although I know he was stubborn and have some strongly held opinions. One, having spent some time talking to him, was probably against the dumbing down of AD&D 2nd edition to cater for all the scaremongering about Devils & Demons that was going on at the time. A change that was thankfully reversed in 3rd Edition.
Comments
Module = something to download and play solo.
I wouldn't mind a nice base module with modified imps or something ... on toast. This post was about updating the base GAME tho.
MrDamage: If you imply that everyone supports the game as-is, why is everyone playing on mods (pws) ? answer: because the base game as supplied by Beamdog may not be adequate for pws with a high epic or legendary playerbase ! It needs to be "modded".
Now this has been going on for 15 years and i would really know how many PLAYERS and modders would like to see something other than PnP traditional ruleset.
How many players actually support updating the game to something more playable in terms of computerized videogaming.
Or how many players preferr to use the old ruleset. Just to know.
What I look for is is for the game to be as faithful to PnP rules as possible. If I where going to make significant changes I would change to 5e PnP rules, but I'm well aware that isn't possible for both practical and legal reasons, so the only changes I would support are changes to make the game closer to PnP rules, and even then, not at the expense of backwards compatibility.
Maybe you are right. Maybe the nerf crowd are right lets make the game better !
Or do you think the game is good enough and should not be changed even if it were easy to accomplish ?
That and material types for damage reduction rather than +level damage reduction.
An example of this is if you don't want proper armor types faithful to D&D such as hide armor, studded leather, or I think scale mail vs chain mail then you wont vote for "armor.2da full customization"
Since only a few ppl vote on things like that it means only a few actually want the rules upgrade or realize what it entails, realize how NWN differs and what problems there are in changing it. If you do want rules upgrades but you're not a modder then just vote for all of the technical sounding nuts and bolts things, most of which is at the back of the trello board.
To me, the current videogame market seems to be awash with multiplayer PvP games, with rules specifically designed for that. It would be foolish for NWN to try and compete on those terms. I really can't see much of a market outside niche roleplaying for grown-ups and single-player story telling.
No, I was talking about PvE and NWN has a core combat system that is completely inert towards rol playing. It should not interfere with role playing at all.
Maybe they should put all the non-compatibity issues in an upgraded version (ee1, ee2) so that all the older mods and modules will still be playable.
I don't want more hack/slash engine ability, I want to be able to use GURPS dice rules or progression mechanics or whatever if I want. On top of/in extension of the underlying 3e mechanics. More tabletop-y. More RP-y.
Besides the 2nd edition isn't THAT different from the 1st, and several concepts from the 2nd edition are present in extension for the 1st (skills are present in Oriental Adventures I believe, I need to double check as I have one here but only use it for oriental races and classes).