Allow Custom Spellbooks and fixing Presitage class spellbooks.
ildaron
Member Posts: 52
On the trello input board this is the number one and three most voted on boards. Unless you consider it one issue in than it remains number one only.
I believe the two are related and should be considered one issue. Dragon Disciple and Pale Master do not follow their counterparts in pen and paper as neither class gain their spell casting abilities. As such on the Trello boards I voted for both. Naturally of the two allowing custom spell books is more important. If the first is allowed, a Modder can fix the second and then add new classes as well. As such I request the topic (and votes) be combined into one card.
Please @JuliusBorisov you are our only hope. #YesThisIsAStarWarsReference.
I believe the two are related and should be considered one issue. Dragon Disciple and Pale Master do not follow their counterparts in pen and paper as neither class gain their spell casting abilities. As such on the Trello boards I voted for both. Naturally of the two allowing custom spell books is more important. If the first is allowed, a Modder can fix the second and then add new classes as well. As such I request the topic (and votes) be combined into one card.
Please @JuliusBorisov you are our only hope. #YesThisIsAStarWarsReference.
2
Comments
I made both modifications in my nwnx_patch + nwncx_patch plugins for 1.69 so let me write some comments/advices.
My nwncx plugin worked in a way that it didn't added the spell selection when levelling up as Pale Master (or custom PrC improving arcane spellcasting) but it added the Pale Master levels into bard/sorcerer and when taking next bard/sorcerer level, player could choose the levels he acquired via prestige classes. I suppose it will be very hard to let player choose sorcerer spells when he is levelling up Pale Master so maybe just do it this way - maybe less professional but still highly useable and would be huge improvement already.
As for custom spellbooks. The problem here is not the ammount of work but how to make this all dynamic/modifiable and easy to use.
Basically the unhardcoding spellbooks can be dissolved into several tasks:
1) remove hardcoded restriction for paladin and ranger lvl 4 - this will make it possible to modify these classes and add them cantrips or lvl 1 spellcasting from lvl 1 class level
2) dynamically show up animal/familiar selection table at the level when Famialiar/Animal Companion feat is acquired. EXTRA: maybe allow us to choose both pets at single level up.
3) unhardcode casting abilities and tied spellcasting classes with primary ability set in classes.2da instead
4) unhardcode spellbooks for other classes than bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer and wizard
And the last task needs some setting to be available.
In my nwnx plugin I did it this way:
1) new column in classes.2da CastType which was a bitflag with these values:
[01] 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 - Restrict Spellbook [Show Only Known/ALL (1/0)]
[02] 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 - Spontaneous/Prepared 1/0
[04] 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 -
[08] 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 - Select domains
[10] 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 - Select spell school
[20] 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 -
[40] 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 - Can learn scrolls
[80] 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - Arcane/Divine (1/0)
This can be added into current SpellCaster column - I used custom column because engine translates values above 1 to 1 for this information.
2) custom 2da called spells_level.2da which had following format
2DA V2.0 Label X Y 0 Acid_Fog 1 6 1 Aid 2 2 2 Animate_Dead 3 3 3 Barkskin **** 2 4 Bestow_Curse **** 2 5 Blade_Barrier **** 6Where X and Y were numbers of the class id. For example 30 for assassin and 31 for blackguard. This allowed unlimited and easy population of the spellcasting classes' spellbooks.
Later I added more advanced features which are also more problematic to add:
3) Spell options table, new column in classes.2da that refered into custom 2da that further controlled some spellcasting options: how many spells will class get at each level (wizard-like spellcasters), if they get knowledge of all cantrips at lvl 1 for free and whether ability modifier bonus will be added into number of spells learned. Plus unlimited spellcasting feature that allowed to set casting of specific spell level unlimited - gui shows * instead of numbers and will let player to cast spels of that level unlimited.
4) Spell type. New column in classes.2da that will controll what is the type of spells this spellcaster has. This is quite needed as I realized arcane and divine are not all the spell types existing. If someone would want to make psionics/truenamers or warlock, without this feature he would not be able to make a prestige classes that would increased spellcasting capatibilities of such spellcaster at all. So, basically, this column is set to text value (string) "Arcane" or "Divine" for vanilla spellcasters (if unset the arcane/divine flags will be automatically assigned by engine) or anything else you like such as "Invocations". This is then connected with 5th feature.
5) Spell progression tables. Soon I realized that the columns ArcSpellLvlMod and DivSpellLvlMod are missing a lot of functionality. It is not possible to make a class that would improved spellcasting progression every odd level, or only first 5 levels, different mixtures and also it won't work with custom type of spellcasters like Warlock. So I made this feature, basically there is a new column in classes.2da that ties class with spell progression table 2da. This 2da looks like this:
cls_prog_palema.2da (palemaster's spell progression) 2DA V2.0 Level ProgOption Arcane 0 1 0 1 1 2 0 1 2 3 0 2 3 4 0 2 4 5 0 3 5 6 0 3 6 7 0 4 7 8 0 4 8 9 0 5column Arcane refers to the SpellType in classes.2da, 2da support unlimited number and variations of spelltypes. It gets always compared to the class' SpellType string value.
ProgOption: 0 - default, will improve spell progression of the type of spellcaster specified by specified ammount, if more than 1 type of spellcasters are set, then the class will improve all these types. 1: same as 0 but will also improve multiple spellcasters of the same type (ie. wizard/sorcerer build if Arcane or cleric/druid if Divine). 2: will improve spell progression of the highest class of all those written in 2da, ie. if there is Arcane and Divine set if the build is 10wizard 5cleric, wizard progression will be improved, if the build is 5wizard 10 cleric, cleric progression will be improved.
Could we use the 2 from caster to make the engine look at a custom 2da with all columns of your setting shadoow? I just thinking for ease of use for creating the custom spellbooks?
ie.:
[01] 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 - Is SpellCaster [02] 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 - Is using custom 2da for spelllist population [04] 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 - Restrict Spellbook [Show Only Known/ALL (1/0)] [08] 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 - Spontaneous/Prepared 1/0 [10] 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 - Select domains [20] 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 - Select spell school [40] 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 - Can learn scrolls [80] 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 - Arcane/Divine (1/0)Though - this might not be needed at all. If the class is SpellCaster and the class is not Wiz/Sorc/Cler/Druid/Bard/Pal/Rang then it can be linked to the new custom 2da automatically, could it not?
Though - this might not be needed at all. If the class is SpellCaster and the class is not Wiz/Sorc/Cler/Druid/Bard/Pal/Rang then it can be linked to the new custom 2da automatically, could it not?
Yeah, that along the lines of what I was thinking.
Dragonheart Mage should be added to NWN:EE, since casters have few options of prestige classes and no viable options. https://dndtools.net/classes/dragonheart-mage/
When you have critical immunity, spells like "Epic Warding" turn you into a literal juggernaut. Pair this with the games 'damage on hit' defensive spells (ala death armor, fire shield and mestils acid sheath), and you become something very foolish to attempt to melee attack at all.
Pale Master is not only limited to pure sorcerer/bard/wizard builds either. The mixture of another class can make them quite a force to be reckoned with. Take for example a Fighter/Wizard/PM, or Cleric/Bard/PM.
Now, I'm not saying you should not get spell levels with Pale Master, but I'm disagreeing that the class is underpowered.
d20+15(CL) VS 12 + 10.
Is mostly likely to dispel while the Wiz 10/PM 10 will few options do dispel the Wiz 15 defenses...
5 caster levels difference means 15 damage difference in elemental shield(d6 + 1/CL) + Mestil's acid sheath(d6 + 2/CL) Note that i an comparing 2 builds an CL difference of 5. To get critical immunity, you need spend 10 levels of PM. About Epic Warding, 10 CL with Epic Warding means +500 HP damage absorption. Caster Levels are very important to casters. If there are a 'feat' that make you 3x more vulnerable to critical, but gives 10 CL, this feat will be picked 9/10. Also, if you wanna go melee and have critical immunity, simple use Shapechange to a iron golem. Not only you will get Critical immunity, but will get +300 HP and other stuff ( nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shapechange )
I honestly think that a Wizard 10/Pale Master 10 will be mostly likely to lose to an Wizard 13, but is more complex to explain why.
------------------------------------
And for melee characters, i think that there are better classes like Dwarven defender. 6/- DR and + 10 BAB seems very useful, mainly because it can't be dispelled and can't "fade" after absorbing X damage.
Even for a melee user, get 5 Wiz levels(meet PM requirement - cast lv 3 arcane spells) + 10 PM levels, only to get crit immunity that you can get easily from items seens a terrible idea. The unique viable class prestige class is RDD and RDD still too weak compared to PnP(can only be a read dragon) and is only good for melee.
I'm not looking to argue on this, but I will suggest that you attempt to play more than just the original campaigns before you make wide sweeping claims about character build strengths and weaknesses. This game is after all, more than the original campaigns.
Can you show me a video of a Wizard 15 losing to a Wizard 10/ Pale Master 10? As i've said, no way that this can happen(except if Wiz 15 is AFK)
I guess Holy Water was the intentional joke.
Some spells do more damage, some spells do less. Liches have defences against spells in any case.
HD d12
Darkvision
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects.
Immunity to poison.
Immunity to sleep.
Immunity to paralysis.
Immunity to stunning.
Immunity to disease.
Immunity to death effects.
Immunity to critical hits.
Immunity to nonlethal damage
Immunity to ability drain.
Immunity to energy drain.
Immunity to damage to its physical scores (str, dex, con).
Immunity to fatigue and exhaustion
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude Save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless)
No need to breathe, eat or sleep.
15/bludgeoning damage resistance.
+5 Natural AC
Immunity to cold.
Immunity to electricity.
Immunity to polymorph (except when cast on themselves).
+2 Int, Wis and Cha
+8 Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, (Sense Motive) and Spot.
The game doesn't attempt to 'balance' anything, it's D&D, and it is incredibly unbalanced. That is just how D&D works. There is some semblance of "rock, paper, scissors" that happens, but there are undoubtedly more powerful builds and some classes are just all around weaker.
Why you go on to compare a weaker wizard in terms of spell casting vs a superior caster is a bit of a silly point to make. Wizard vs. Wizard, the guy with more spells, and access to higher level spells is always going to have an advantage. Player skill out of the question, this is just the nature of caster vs. caster match-ups. Dispel alone will allow the higher level/more spells per day caster able to lockdown the other weaker one.
That being said, let's propose another match-up: A level 40 Wizard vs. a Fighter/WM/Rogue, or a Level 30 Wizard/10 PM vs a Fighter/WM/Rogue... The Palemaster will win, where the 40 Wizard will likely be dev-critted and immediately disposed of. There are benefits and drawbacks to a lot of builds, so suggesting that Pale Master is underpowered because of a level 20 build is just disingenuous.
10 CL more means that your epic spell - epic warding will be able to absorb 500 more damage. And if a Wiz 30 have 20% of "grappling" against the melee character with Bigby's crushing hand, a Wiz 40 with more 10 CL so he will have 70%. In some servers that changes a lot the items and spells, pale master can be good, but this isn't 'core' nwn..
I personally would love the custom class spellbook to add a class like the Dragonsoul Heir (Same as DD) which increases the caster level.
It doesn't matter if the Pale Master class is actually useable in current state for casters or not (and if you ask me it is not very good at least if we are talking in classic singleplayer or low level multiplayer environment). Pale Master should give the caster level the same way it grants extra spell slots. Similarly, since PM gives extra spell slots to wizard, it should grant them to sorcerer (and bard although bard should not be able to become PM in PnP) too. What would be overpowered on that?
Furthermore, if some guy (ildaron) wants to make and play overpowered class what is wrong with that? It is his choice - and I don't see him pushing his overpowered class idea on us all unlike other guys in request threads.
All he and we all wants is the ability to make such class and do it without ugly workarounds. Do you have some problem with *that* Thorsson?
Plus, considering community patch nwnx plugin allowed this for 1.69 (and that it won't be possible to do again because of the new policy with client modifications) it would be nice to see it in core game...
However caster progression to work properly is a much needed change, along with some amount of soft coding spell slots.
There was a time where you didn't pick your race and class first. You rolled your stats and then had to pick a race and class you qualified for. There was no min maxing. You played the randomness you were dealt sort of speak. Only then did the benevolent dm step in for the sake of a well rounded party. Each class had a role and it was up to a player to fulfill that role.
Not sure when the everyone for themselves mentality entered into the game, but this is what ruins the roleplaying games fun factor. You don't have to be the most powerful character to enjoy the game.
(Just an old timers two copper)
There are 36541234163510654141685*10^23 RPGs that focus much more in balance and aren't based in D&D. NWN should be more closer to PnP that is possible. I know that be equal is impossible or at least very hard to be implemented. An example? How implement this spell?
source http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Raise_Island
My critique is that the games "tries" to balance and ends with a game more unbalanced and less D&D at the same time. One of the best PVP build IMHO is high SR(spell resistance) disarm monk. You have the best counter to casters(SR) and even if by some bad "dice rolls" you can't disarm your enemy, you still able to retreat at a insane speed. Well said. Dread Necromancer in 3.5 can use divine and arcane spells but can only use a small amount of spells,
NWN 2 handles prestige classes that advance spell casting by having a 2da file that maps feats to classes. So you would have a feat called "Eldritch Knight Spellcasting (Wizard)" and this feat would be referenced in the 2da file.
You can give a prestige class 2 bonus feats on 1st level to select 2 of these feats, but it breaks because NWN 2 will only ever let you pick new spells for one class at level up. This still allows you to make Theurges for classes that either know their whole list (Cleric/Druid/Paladin/Ranger) or Wizards (since they can learn spells from scrolls).
You *can* also advance spontaneous casters with it provided that you mix this class with one of the ones above. This spontaneous class also has to be above the other class in the classes.2da file... so basically your only options are Bard/any of above or Sorceror/Wizard.