Haste bug

ShadowM

Did they fix the haste bug that gave spell caster ability to cast two spells in a round?

niv

Hey ShadowM,

we haven't changed that. I'd be hesitant to just go ahead and change that as a custom content and character builds might depend on it? Maybe this is an item that should be put to discussion in here for a bit before fixing it, but I suspect almost everyone will agree that it should not be possible to cast two spells in one round.

FWIW, The 3.0 rules clearly state that Haste as per spell only gives you another partial action, not a regular action (or even another full-round action). So this is clearly a bug no matter which way it's twisted.

ShadowM

Yes, I understand it a hot topic even in PNP table top. I have a custom effect that I use as a replacement and item property Addition marked at 3.5 haste that apply the effect on equip but does not effect NPC and I sure there other issues with it. Like you, I like to hear some more people thoughts on it. If it does get changed that save me around about coding a fix.

DerpCity

This actually isn't a bug. The official description in game for the haste spell states "The target of this spell gains, +4 bonus to dodge AC, 1 extra action per round (allowing an additional attack or spell to be cast) and has their movement increased by 50%." This means was an intentional design decision, or otherwise it would not have been included in the description, unless my definition of "bug" isn't what anybody else's. As such, Trent's recent stream statement that balance/design decisions won't be changed stands.

How it functions in PnP is irrelevant, in my opinion. If this was removed, it'd be basically like replacing Knockdown with Trip, or the removal of parry and discipline, or making items no longer stack ability bonuses with each other (I'm basing this on the fact NWN2 made them not stack, but I don't actually know if that was because it functions that way in PnP or because they like ruining my dreams. ). They are homebrewed rules/feats, yes, but they were included on purpose, and, as I stated before, it aligns with Trent's opinion.

From my own perspective, while I don't play casters very often, the extra spell is the main reason you'd use haste while playing a caster. I'd literally never take it over expeditious retreat if I didn't get the extra spell, even if it lets me cast my spells faster.

However, I am no fool. I understand that getting an entire extra spell can be very broken in a PvP environment. Isaac's Greater does 40d6 damage at maximum level, and the only way to block that is with spell mantle, spell resistance, or resistance to magic damage, and, unfortunately for everyone involved, nothing provides resistance to magic damage, and spell resistance from sources that aren't spellcasters (unless you're a Monk, but no one likes monk. ) is rather poor IIRC. So I'd compromise that, instead of outright removing the feature or keeping it, a module switch or game option should be provided to let players/module makers turn it off. That way, those who think the extra spell is too much from a balance perspective, and those who don't see the issue can keep it. Also, if a problem lies with some items granting the haste effect permanently, a module-maker can replace them with a variant that functions as they do in NWN2, where they give you the ability to cast haste once per day instead of permanent haste.

So, like I always say, give players more options to customize the experience to their liking, and I'll be happy.

ShadowM

How it functions in PnP is irrelevant, in my opinion. If this was removed, it'd be basically like replacing Knockdown with Trip, or the removal of parry and discipline, or making items no longer stack ability bonuses with each other (I'm basing this on the fact NWN2 made them not stack, but I don't actually know if that was because it functions that way in PnP or because they like ruining my dreams. ). They are homebrewed rules/feats, yes, but they were included on purpose, and, as I stated before, it aligns with Trent's opinion.

They changed it because it was PNP and I glad they did way better on a scaling system (include on purpose maybe because they could not at the time implement them the way they wanted too not because it was a design decision). To me PNP is more relevant not only in PVE /PVP environment with scaling. I with you on giving option to change/remove aspect that we may not like or change thing slightly to what we perceive is better. If it allowed to be modified that be my best option, if not I work around it and like similar things(like discipline skill) I will remove it/modify it the best I can. Thanks for you thoughts.

JuliusBorisov

Moved to the General discussion as per @niv 's comment.

voidofopinion

It works as it does in PnP and if you don't like it's balance in PVP then you can script around it.

Sooooooo....

Savant1974

It's interesting to learn hasted spell-spamming is sort of a bug (or was it intentional?) At epic levels, (perma)hasted spellcasting gets pretty crazy and intense, so I was thinking of scripting around it for balance reasons in my mods because one extra melee/ranged attack doesn't compare with an extra IGMS during a round (guy with sword vs guy with machine gun)!

Given the option, I would recommend altering the base game so you couldn't cast two spells in a round, but keep the faster spell casting so they get some benefit besides running faster. Save modders the trouble of having to script around it themselves. Hell, put it on your Trello board and see what happens.

I'm uncertain how this would ruin older mods of course, but are there really mods based around this very broken mechanic, where you need to spam out fireballs and horrid wiltings at a ridiculous pace to succeed? Put in a script switch so modders can restore 'super-crazy-spell-fun-time' if they want.

Sorry Void, not even Ron Swanson is going to sway my opinion on this one!

DerpCity

@Savant1974 As I stated above, Haste's description explicitly states you get an extra spell or attack, meaning its intentional and not a bug. I would hate to see it go, as its literally the only reason I take it on casters. Granted, though I don't play PVP, and I totally understand that casting two Isaacs a round is broken, but in Epic Levels Automatic Quicken Spell gets you the same effect, so to my knowledge removing this from haste wouldn't really do anything in the end. I'd be up for modders being allowed to turn it off, but off shouldn't be the default setting, seeing how PVP balance isn't what NWN or PnP D&D are designed around.

Shadooow

I cannot imagine playing caster without being able to cast 2 spells per round. Casting one spell and then wait 3seconds to cast another is so annoying.

voidofopinion

Savant1974 said:

Sorry Void, not even Ron Swanson is going to sway my opinion on this one!

I appreciate that but you gotta admit Ron is a powerful persuading force

And the style of balance people want in their mods is completely up to the
them!

However, I take umbrage with it being called a bug:

3e D&D Haste as written in the PHB.



Partial action caveat for spell casting:

"[May cast a spell as a partial action] unless doing so is a full-round action, in which case a character could start a full-round action and then finish it the next round with a cast a spell action. Spells that take longer than 1 full round to cast take twice as long to cast."

So the entire debate comes down to "Should NWN round up or round down it's partial actions" and seeing as how we have been rounding up for 15 years I am not sure we need to change our grading metric.

FreshLemonBun

Solve the issue by having scriptable casting times per spell, you can sort of do this now but not very nicely.

Savant1974

@voidofopinion Yes it does seem the nwn team decided to round up, and after 15 years it might indeed be a good idea just to let it go. It's not like BD doesn't have enough on their plate already! Hey look at that, Ron persuaded me after all.

voidofopinion

Savant1974 said:

Ron persuaded me after all.

BelleSorciere

I think Haste is fine. I'm just here for the Ron Swanson gifs.

FreshLemonBun

To be fair the 3.5 haste doesn't allow the extra action, it was one of the notable changes. The AD&D version on the other hand costs a year of the recipient's remaining lifespan and a stick of licorice, how cool is that?

Add pre-cast spellhooking and we can probably have either version.

highv_priest

FreshLemonBun said:

Solve the issue by having scriptable casting times per spell, you can sort of do this now but not very nicely.

While casting time isn't scriptable. You can directly edit the casting times in the .2DA server side, which will increase/decrease required time to cast a spell. It even allows changing the "startup" and "applying" time. So that you can have them take 30 seconds to cast it, but the instant that 30 is up they get hit instantly or you can make it take 1 second to send it flying, but it takes 30 seconds to get there.

I suppose the most ideal option would be to just add a softcoding for those 2 variables in the .2DA.

FreshLemonBun

That's what isn't nice about it. You have to effectively remove it on all spells and then check it in the script and reapply it with some fake casting stuff within the script. It gets worse the better you try to make it.

Shadooow

highv_priest said:

FreshLemonBun said:

Solve the issue by having scriptable casting times per spell, you can sort of do this now but not very nicely.

While casting time isn't scriptable. You can directly edit the casting times in the .2DA server side, which will increase/decrease required time to cast a spell. It even allows changing the "startup" and "applying" time. So that you can have them take 30 seconds to cast it, but the instant that 30 is up they get hit instantly or you can make it take 1 second to send it flying, but it takes 30 seconds to get there.

I suppose the most ideal option would be to just add a softcoding for those 2 variables in the .2DA.

You can edit casting time but even if you change the casting time to very low value (and isn't there some limit on the values?) without haste you still won't be able to cast more than 1 spell per round. It will just finish the animation in 1second and next 5 seconds the character will be doing nothing waiting for new spell.

Personally I am more of a fan of house rule allowing everyone to make 2 spell/feat casting actions per round or make it so after casting a feat/spell or using item activate you can at least start combat immediately (which is possible with haste and spells/feats but not without it).

Rifkin

A proposed fix, this entails all casting effects in general:

First, allow casting effects to be combined into a composite effect. (Example: Haste composite = speed boost + extra action + 4 dodge ac), create new Effect type "Composite" which allows for the choice of Icon to be displayed to the user (for Haste obviously this icon is the haste icon).

Now, change the spell scripts to use composites.

Finally, builders who want to change the way Haste works, can simply remove or add an effect to the composite.

Everybody wins! Great success!

JuliusBorisov

https://trello.com/c/rIPorwf3/125-tweak-the-haste-spell

kenawyn

The haste implementation is one of the reason why 3.0 was a garbage edition, and why 3.5 was necessary.

If you can cast haste to get an additional action also applicable for spell casting, what good is the Quicken feat (auto quicken epic feats)?

The design fail on this one is mind boggling.
At one hand you have Haste - a low level spell that once cast allows the user to spam twice as many spells without the 4 levels higher meta-magic cost. (it gets worse, since the effect can also be acquired as an item property - so no need to waste a slot memorizing it; no need to waste time casting it; its always active doubling the spell-casting actions while also giving a nice movement and AC buff)

On the other hand you have the quicken spell meta-magic feat. This starts up badly by costing a feat, which is always a painful investment.. especially since using it forces the caster to use up a spell slot 4 levels higher than the quickened spell.

What were the designers smoking when they introduced this?
The quicken spell feat is utterly useless compared to Haste.

This should be fixed.

Shadooow

kenawyn said:

The haste implementation is one of the reason why 3.0 was a garbage edition, and why 3.5 was necessary.

Yes definitely agree.

However, speaking of CRPG, be able to cast only once per round is very very annoying and unfun. It might be perhaps unbalanced towards casters and I never felt so playing various PvP and PW Action modules (so where is that a problem low lvl hardcore rp PW or in singleplayer?) but it makes playing casters much more fun.

Not to mention that module builders already have tools to modify haste spell. Not the effect itself but if you want Haste spell to give only 1 extra attack and speed + maybe some AC you could always do so. So I see absolutely no reason to change haste in core game and I am strongly against it, I wish we could vote against something on trello because this would be the case. EDIT: with some more effort you can also change the haste itemproperty if you wanted, but there where they see haste as a problem they usually don't offer this property to player anyway.