For a Sorcerer: Horrid Wilting or Incendiary Cloud?

Rik_Kirtaniya

These are both the top damage spells in the Arcane caster's repertoire.

Comparing them:

Horrid Wilting:

• Has Greater instantaneous damage (20-160 in one round at max level)
  
• Is Party Friendly (affects only hostile creatures)
  
• Deals Magic Damage (Resistance less commonly found in enemies)
  
• Has a smaller radius (16 ft.) [as stated by the wiki]
  
• Has no Additional Damage over time
  

Incendiary Cloud

• Has Lesser instantaneous damage (20-80 in one round at max level)
  
• NOT Party friendly (unless you have 100 or more Fire Resistance for all characters, or any other protective magic)
  
• Deals Fire Damage (Resistance more commonly found in enemies)
  
• Has a larger radius (30 ft.) [as per the wiki]
  
• Deals Damage over time, culminating in greater total damage (20-80 damage per round, so total of 200-800 damage over 1 turn, provided you can hold your enemy within the cloud)
  

So, which one would you choose for a Sorcerer?

(Note: I didn't give a "Both" option, since as a Sorcerer, one can hardly afford to choose redundant spells (in this case, AoE Damage spells) from the same level.)

O_Bruce

I would say... it depends on your experience as the player. If you are already experienced, beaten the game many times etc. I think you should go for Incendiary Cloud for variety. Usually Horrid Wilting is the way to go for most, but I think sometimes it is interesting to just break the mold and go for less choosen option.

ThacoBell

Horrid Wilting, as there enough fire immune enemies in my opinion to drop its general use below HW.

Karrgoot

Horrid Wilting saves on fortitude if a remembered and not reflex i think that was the only reason i used it

sarevok57

Karrgoot said:

Horrid Wilting saves on fortitude if a remembered and not reflex i think that was the only reason i used it

this is BG2 so it's a save vs spell for both spells ( there is no fort,reflex,will in BG2 )

but just for convenience sake, horrid wilting is uncontested for the win, with incendiary cloud you are constantly going to have to make sure you front liners are immune to fire, and you have to wait for the duration to go out to save your game

plus im pretty sure in game the radius of both spells are the same

Borek

Depends on the difficulty, mods and how you prefer to play. For Solo LOB Incendiary cloud is king, since 1 ADHW probably won't drop a lot and you can drop the cloud on a pack, use Staff of the Magi and chill out whilst the world burns. I mean sure, there's plenty of fire immune monsters out there, but it's just 1 pick for 1 spell level and when it works it's orders of magnitude higher damage over-all.

ZaramMaldovar

Oh Horrid Wilting all the way

I just love setting off multiple Horrid Wilting's at once, it makes me feel powerful as I watch my enemies crumble to dust beneath me (metaphorically of course because is actuality they are wilting away beneath me and suffering a slow and agonizing demise whilst my party watches in comfort)

Son_of_Imoen

Horrid Wilting as I don't want my party standing in an Incendary Cloud when they get toe-to-toe with the enemy.

Grond0

As @Borek suggests a lot depends on how you're playing. If solo then incendiary cloud is incredibly useful, but it's a bit more hassle to use with a full party. By the way I regularly see the comment that fire resistance is common in ToB - my experience is that it's pretty rare even there.

Rik_Kirtaniya

I think if someone plays with a solo Dragon Disciple (which gets 100% innate Fire Resistance at level 16), Incendiary Cloud would be a good choice.

The only thing is that since I haven't played through ToB, or even the whole of SoA, I don't know exactly how common or rare enemy Fire Resistance is, which is where the main question lies.

However, if we consider the total damage output of both spells, a single Incendiary Cloud (max damage 800) is equivalent to 5 castings of Horrid Wilting (max damage 160), a fact that is often not considered that much, making Incendiary Cloud more underrated than it should be.

By the way, in IWD, Horrid Wilting is NOT party friendly, so I think, Incendiary Cloud is the superior choice there by all means.

sarevok57

in ToB enemies that are immune to fire damage are:

fire giants ( duh )
fire elementals ( double duh )
burning man
most devils
most demons

doesnt sound like much, but this is basically 1/4 of the enemies that you will be fighting in ToB ( lots of fire giants early on, and just lots of demons and devils in watchers keep/final battle)

and the only enemy that i can recall that has magic damage resistance is:
kuo-toas

don't know why, but they have some insane magic damage resistance

plus remember you can put x3 abi-dalzim's horrid wilting into a chain contingency and have it fire off on enemy sighted dealing some brutal damage

but on the other hand, if you plan on a LoB mode, when enemies have outrageous amounts of HPs, then incendiary cloud can be very useful in that situation ( more so if triple contingencied as well )

so it's really a preference of the user i suppose

although one thing to mention is that, enemies inside an incendiary cloud are realistically going to be taking 40-50 damage a round at best, while a blast from horrid wilting will deal around 90-110 damage on a failed save ( thanks to the engine's wonky way of how saves and damage works )

ThacoBell

Yeah, a full 1/3rd of ToB is nothing but fire immune enemies.

Grond0

ThacoBell said:

Yeah, a full 1/3rd of ToB is nothing but fire immune enemies.

An awful lot of whom are at the Fire Giant Temple where you don't actually have to kill a single creature.

sarevok57

Grond0 said:

ThacoBell said:

Yeah, a full 1/3rd of ToB is nothing but fire immune enemies.

An awful lot of whom are at the Fire Giant Temple where you don't actually have to kill a single creature.

not killing baddies and getting sweetski experience points in an RPG game is like not using a gun in a first person shooter game

ThacoBell

@Grond0 Well, then why memorize any offensive spells? If you aren't gonna kill anything, they won't really do much good.

Grond0

I must admit I do normally kill everything, but I don't think horrid wilting is the best choice in the Fire Giant Temple. With the high HPs the giants have a dozen or so skull traps does the job nicely if you want to use direct damage spells . Outside the Fire Giant Temple I come across very few enemies that are immune to fire (though I don't normally go deep into Watcher's Keep) and find Incendiary Cloud is a far more efficient killer - I've killed everyone in Gromnir's throne room with a single one of those before now.

ThacoBell

@Grond0 IC won't do any good against demons present at Watcher's Keep and the final battle. I'm not sure I follow why dropping a dozen or so skull traps is better or more efficient than 2 or 3 HWs. Note that the op is using a Sorceror.

sarevok57

ThacoBell said:

@Grond0 IC won't do any good against demons present at Watcher's Keep and the final battle. I'm not sure I follow why dropping a dozen or so skull traps is better or more efficient than 2 or 3 HWs. Note that the op is using a Sorceror.

indeed, usually what i do in the fire giant lair is lure all the fire giants in one tight little group and then throw a chain contingency of abi-dalzim's horrid wiltings to the group (sometimes even 2 chain contingencies) and watch all the baddies die ( although the elite fire giants have higher magic resistance and high HP so sometimes they survive )

Grond0

sarevok57 said:

indeed, usually what i do in the fire giant lair is lure all the fire giants in one tight little group and then throw a chain contingency of abi-dalzim's horrid wiltings to the group (sometimes even 2 chain contingencies) and watch all the baddies die ( although the elite fire giants have higher magic resistance and high HP so sometimes they survive )

I do the same in terms of gathering the giants together, but you make my point for me - the elite fire giants sometimes survive if you use only wiltings. Wiltings do on average less than 30% more damage than skull traps - and you can't put them in sequencers or triggers.

@ThacoBell the appropriate comparison to 12 skull traps would be 9 or 10 wiltings, not 2 or 3 - and 12 skull traps are quicker to cast than 9 wiltings (helping to avoid your bunched enemies scattering).

Karrgoot

sarevok57 said:

Karrgoot said:

Horrid Wilting saves on fortitude if a remembered and not reflex i think that was the only reason i used it

this is BG2 so it's a save vs spell for both spells ( there is no fort,reflex,will in BG2 )

but just for convenience sake, horrid wilting is uncontested for the win, with incendiary cloud you are constantly going to have to make sure you front liners are immune to fire, and you have to wait for the duration to go out to save your game

plus im pretty sure in game the radius of both spells are the same

---Karrgoot---
True, i was thinking of the wrong game, i agree with you about the spell i question. It is safe and powerful.

CamDawg

sarevok57 said:

plus im pretty sure in game the radius of both spells are the same

They are--one the fixes in 2.5 is correcting all of the wrong areas of effect in spell descriptions. Both spells have a 15' radius AoE.

sarevok57

Grond0 said:

sarevok57 said:

indeed, usually what i do in the fire giant lair is lure all the fire giants in one tight little group and then throw a chain contingency of abi-dalzim's horrid wiltings to the group (sometimes even 2 chain contingencies) and watch all the baddies die ( although the elite fire giants have higher magic resistance and high HP so sometimes they survive )

I do the same in terms of gathering the giants together, but you make my point for me - the elite fire giants sometimes survive if you use only wiltings. Wiltings do on average less than 30% more damage than skull traps - and you can't put them in sequencers or triggers.

@ThacoBell the appropriate comparison to 12 skull traps would be 9 or 10 wiltings, not 2 or 3 - and 12 skull traps are quicker to cast than 9 wiltings (helping to avoid your bunched enemies scattering).

does magic resistance not apply to skull trap?

CamDawg

sarevok57 said:

does magic resistance not apply to skull trap?

MR applies.

sarevok57

hmmm interesting, apparently skull trap's damage doesnt cap to 10d6, but all the way up to 20d6, which seems very over powering since fireball only goes to 10d6

and skull trap does magical damage over fireball which deals fire damage

ZaramMaldovar

Grond0 said:

An awful lot of whom are at the Fire Giant Temple where you don't actually have to kill a single creature.

Ummm....how are YOU playing the game?

Grond0

sarevok57 said:

hmmm interesting, apparently skull trap's damage doesnt cap to 10d6, but all the way up to 20d6, which seems very over powering since fireball only goes to 10d6

and skull trap does magical damage over fireball which deals fire damage

Indeed. You can also use skull traps, as traps, stacking up as many as you want before leading enemies into them. All reasons why this is probably my favorite arcane spell.

ZaramMaldovar said:

Grond0 said:

An awful lot of whom are at the Fire Giant Temple where you don't actually have to kill a single creature.

Ummm....how are YOU playing the game?

Traditionally I would kill everything there, though on a few recent runs I haven't bothered (as I normally play solo and do all the standard encounters in SoA I can easily hit the XP cap before ToB, making killing trash mobs there a bit of a waste of time).

sarevok57

Grond0 said:

sarevok57 said:

hmmm interesting, apparently skull trap's damage doesnt cap to 10d6, but all the way up to 20d6, which seems very over powering since fireball only goes to 10d6

and skull trap does magical damage over fireball which deals fire damage

Indeed. You can also use skull traps, as traps, stacking up as many as you want before leading enemies into them. All reasons why this is probably my favorite arcane spell.

ZaramMaldovar said:

Grond0 said:

An awful lot of whom are at the Fire Giant Temple where you don't actually have to kill a single creature.

Ummm....how are YOU playing the game?

Traditionally I would kill everything there, though on a few recent runs I haven't bothered (as I normally play solo and do all the standard encounters in SoA I can easily hit the XP cap before ToB, making killing trash mobs there a bit of a waste of time).

this is the one disadvantage of solo runs, growing to max level too quickly

brunardo

Horrid for sure but thought about IWD and IC better for the amount of undead

Michelle

Horrid Wilting.

I have used Incendiary Cloud in solo runs to much the same effect. It takes more consideration to use effectively is all. If I am not mistaken, Chain Contingency 3 IC prepped before then 3 more right after that goes off + Spell Trigger 3 Lower Resistance = 1 dead Ravager, it may be that I am remembering it wrong. Spell timing is crucial inside the cloud because even with 100% fire resistance, it will disrupt casting. I think, what do I know though, I am going off memory. I do know that it can be done though. I guess that I will be learning the game all over again.

gorgonzola

sarevok57 said:

hmmm interesting, apparently skull trap's damage doesnt cap to 10d6, but all the way up to 20d6, which seems very over powering since fireball only goes to 10d6

and skull trap does magical damage over fireball which deals fire damage

yep, also you can have a wand to cast your fireballs, you can recharge it selling it and buying it again. in most situations ST is better than fireball for every mage, as soon as he is over lev10, but for a sorcerer that has to avoid redundancy is the better choice as the wand can be used if a fireball is needed.
the fact that ST is a trap, that can be set when the enemy sees you, triggering with only a little delay compared to fireball, or pre set in a place where you want to lure enemies, maybe after a rest, is an other advantage.

about the main topic i think that both ADHW and incendiary cloud are really good spells, each one has its advantages. but...
but a sorcerer has ways to lower the magical resistance of a foe, you want to destroy something with 100%MR, no problem: IA, 3 x lower resistance, greater malison and then spam your adhw.
Typically a wise sorcerer does it with a single PI, while using also TS, so at the cost of a single lev 7 spell.
and being careful of the point of the map he is when he casts every spell means that each one hits in the right order, as soon as TS expires the "resilient to magic damage" foe explodes.
and if no party member is near by 5 skull traps can be added to the mix.

that is why i have no doubt and chose every time ADHW for my sorcerers.

ZaramMaldovar

I just wish someone would make a Baeloth mod for BG2

I'd love to cast Horrid Wilting as Baeloth

"That's it, waste away you miserable, mewling maggots. This sanctimonious stage is only barely big enough for Baeloth the Entertainer!"