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NWN EE versus NWN2

Naive question: As I started playing NWN2 again recently, I was wondering if NWN EE would not simply becomes NWN2? What more/different do we expect? Wouldn't it be simpler to port NWN1 scenarios into NWN2?
[Deleted User]
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  • StaranStaran Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 295
    Extremely difficult.
    Nwn1 can never be nwn2. Especially since they want nwn modules to be compatible with nwn ee and visa Versa.
    Now you want nwn modules to be importable into nwn2?
    Gah!

    Best thing to hope for is all the features in nwn2 (and more) to be added to nwn1.

    But since we are on the subject I would like Beamdog to allow import and export of nwn, bg and iwd characters.
    Pronto!
    [Deleted User]
  • RifkinRifkin Member Posts: 141
    Staran said:

    Extremely difficult.
    Nwn1 can never be nwn2. Especially since they want nwn modules to be compatible with nwn ee and visa Versa.
    Now you want nwn modules to be importable into nwn2?
    Gah!

    Best thing to hope for is all the features in nwn2 (and more) to be added to nwn1.

    But since we are on the subject I would like Beamdog to allow import and export of nwn, bg and iwd characters.
    Pronto!

    BG, IWD are AD&D... NWN is D&D 3.0 ... There is no way to import characters directly. I suggest you just re-roll your characters with one of the very many 'Character Creator' modules out there. In the past, "Pretty-Good Character Creator" was the most popular. I believe it is on the vault somewhere.
    Atrophiederic
  • StaranStaran Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 295
    edited January 2018
    Oh I know. I just like to imagine Beamdog programmers go all cross eyed trying to think it through
    [Deleted User]
  • MrDamageMrDamage Member Posts: 210
    I think Trent(Beamdog) also said that nwn EE was going to be his nwn2 3 4 and so on. (I guess as the project progress’s) nwn2 shares the name but totally different company/developers etc. As I understand it, beamdog have no intention of building a bridge between the two.
    NeverwinterWights[Deleted User]
  • StaranStaran Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 295
    And if that is the case, and he can find a way to monetize it (for the life of me I can’t see how) woohoo.
    Nwn2 has a good story and many more features that will hopefully be in nwn.
    So the ability to port that data into nwn2 isn’t appealing
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    NWN2 doesn't achieve the same goal that NWN does and the direction is to open things up more and allow for more possibilities not less possibilities.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    I like more NWN1, but the NWN2 OC was amazing.
    DerpCityBelgarathMTH
  • JFKJFK Member Posts: 214
    I've never seen the two games as versus each other. But, despite the enjoyment I got from NWN2, it was a frustrating experience to play and build. That may not have been the game's fault entirely, but there it is.

    -JFK
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    One of the issues with NWN2, I think, is that it's toolset was more powerful but also more difficult to use. IIRC- it's been awhile since I've opened it- baking walkmeshes was often a pain, or at least baking them then finding issues afterwards. It really did allow for the creation of better looking areas, but required a lot more work to do so.
    JFK
  • JFKJFK Member Posts: 214
    @cherryzero I somewhat agree that with greater power came a steeper curve and --more importantly to me-- the need for a more artistic bent than NWN. Obviously, one can paint more beautifully with a full set of brushes and oils, but most of us aren't Rembrandt. With NWN almost anyone can make a pretty good looking area, pretty quickly. With NWN2, one needs to know colors and how they work, sculpt terrain, place trees, etc. It is much more like painting than area building. It was fun, too. But despite protests by people who were able to achieve nice results, I never was with any sort of reasonable time investment.

    Aside from building though, the gameplay was made awkward to me by controls that felt unresponsive, cameras that felt out of control, animations that looked wooden and unconvincing, and really, sad to say, a whole that felt -- unfinished.

    As I said, I did enjoy NWN2. I enjoy many games. But if we must compare them, the enjoyment I got and still get from NWN far and away surpasses what I got from NWN2.

    Clear as mud? ;)

    -JFK
    NeverwinterWightsMrDamage
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    Clearer! And I definitely agree about the area building. I could never make anything that looked half decent, but if you go look at screenshots for what they’ve done with the BG2 adaptation it’s really amazing. Something you couldn’t get close to in the Aurora toolset.

    Also, it’s funny because I felt the camera controls were much better in NWN2. I don’t like having to use keys to tilt up and down in NWN.

    Ultimately I think there’s a few things that NWN2 did better...

    Customizable UI
    Full Party Control
    Ability to switch camera modes in the fly
    3.5 rules
    Graphics

    That I’m hoping NWN:EE will be able to implement or even improve upon.

    But I’m pretty agnostic about the games themselves. Had fun playing both for many years.

    JFKHunterRayder93Lilura
  • JFKJFK Member Posts: 214
    I hold my mouse wheel to freely move my camera. Try it. It's great. To each their own, is the real point. :)

    -JFK

    ps The one thing I really thought was better was the QuickCast menu. That was a real improvement.

    MrDamage
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    Oh yeah I completely forgot about the quick cast menu. Yeah that would be a much appreciated addition.
    Lilura
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    I disagree that the electron toolset was strictly speaking more powerful. I know many ppl said that the true potential of the toolset just wasn't unlocked yet, and when it was in the right hands and unlocked it would be magical. It has been 11 years and apparently it still hasn't been unlocked yet .... or maybe the true potential was unlocked on day 1 and ppl just had trouble admitting it.

  • MrDamageMrDamage Member Posts: 210
    I always got the impression the toolset had some great potential, but seemed only half baked in areas. Can’t remember now but the dungeon tile set where you actually had to sort out and connect the joins yourself or it wouldn’t work. What’s up with that? Rotating corners/ stuff when the toolset should of handled that kind of thing for you in my most humble opinion. Also the outside took a looong time to get right. Perhaps a system where you could drop a set of prefab tiles down(like nwn1) then use the tools to lower/ raise the terrain and stuff just like it is now may of been kinder to the poor old builder. Let you get an idea out fast to capture it. I always got the feeling 2 would of been great if they spent an extra 2 yrs on it before release. I’m sure they dropped double sided weapons simply because they couldn’t be bothered doing the animations.
    Yeah apologies to the nwn2 fans but that’s my take on it.
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,481
    I tried the NwN2 toolset once and ran screaming from the room. I don't want to have use my mouse as though I'm serving soft ice-cream. TBH, I also hated the OC. Not for the mechanics but for the fact that they sicced evil NPCs into the party when I always go the goody 2 shoes route. Also NwN2's OC felt much more "this is what the toolset is capable of" than the OC of NwN, to me.

    TR
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129

    I disagree that the electron toolset was strictly speaking more powerful. I know many ppl said that the true potential of the toolset just wasn't unlocked yet, and when it was in the right hands and unlocked it would be magical. It has been 11 years and apparently it still hasn't been unlocked yet .... or maybe the true potential was unlocked on day 1 and ppl just had trouble admitting it.

    Again, if you haven’t had the chance, go over to the Nexus and check out the work they’re doing on BG2 reloaded. The areas are astonishing. You can’t do the same in the aurora engine.

    But it is a lot more work. And because of that you can just not get the sheet number of community made modules we have in NWN.

    And again I’m not trying to stir the pot or say one is better than the other. Just different results for different approaches to area construction.
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    I've already seen what NWN2 can do and while some ppl may be astonished I can't say the feeling is universal as it just looks like typical NWN2 areas to me. With exterior tiles limited to 72 polygons each, and only 6 textures per 16 tiles, and surface as a single continuous sheet, you just can't make NWN areas with the electron engine. I'm sure there are also folks that prefer Sword Coast Legends but it just doesn't appeal to me, for other reasons.
    voidofopinion
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member, Moderator Posts: 1,248
    edited January 2018

    I've already seen what NWN2 can do and while some ppl may be astonished I can't say the feeling is universal as it just looks like typical NWN2 areas to me. With exterior tiles limited to 72 polygons each, and only 6 textures per 16 tiles, and surface as a single continuous sheet, you just can't make NWN areas with the electron engine.

    Aside from the god awful camera which after 2 expansions and numerous patches still cant meet even the basic functionality of NWN1... I really hate the lighting engine in NWN2. All the particle effects have this horrible jewel tone to them, the lighting looks unnatural and the textures look like plastic.

    NWN2 just doesn't feel good to play and looks bad in motion. It's a game that seemingly doesn't want to be liked. Like when one friend introduces you to another but tells you "He is a complete asshole but once you get to know him he warms up and he is a riot!"

    Only no matter how much time I put in, NWN2 never got more likable.
    Post edited by voidofopinion on
    Zwerkules
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 909
    So here's the problem, exterior terrain in NWN2 is a height map similar to every visualization of how gravity warps space time. It's created from set points that do not change except for their height value, this has some unfortunate effects like warping textures and being limited to a single continuous mesh. NWN on the other hand has tiles which are hand crafted in a 3D modeling program, they can have as many or as few points as the arbitrary limits allow, their shapes can be concave and convex at different points, textures can be merged or have clean cut offs.

    It's hypothetically possible to take the geometry of an NWN2 exterior area and recreate it as a set of 3D modeled tiles and then import it as a single use tileset for a single area in NWN. It would take up more space than it's worth but probably a similar amount as an NWN2 exterior area. It could also hypothetically be possible for Beamdog to add a height map morphing tool into the toolset that automates this process, but I'm not really sure why you would bother. If it's something folks really want then maybe they can vote for such an option.

    So you can import height mapped geometry into NWN but on the other hand you can't take any arbitrary geometry that isn't created from evenly spaced vertices and recreate it with a height map.

    The wikipedia page for The Witcher also alludes to the limits of tilesets on a fundamental level as offset by creative use of your 3D program. "One of the most important features of the Aurora Engine is that the world is designed exactly as the developers envisioned, rather than using a tile-based system. All the environments are developed in 3ds Max and then exported into the game engine. As a result, developers can create unique game worlds, rather than recycling the same tiled objects over and over again. CD Projekt's version of the engine supports lightmaps generated in 3ds Max. Shadows generated this way are reported to look more realistic, and provide better game performance."

    That is 3D models can have any arbitrary geometry whereas height maps must necessarily follow unrealistic restrictions.

    Another big difference is how they decided to create character models and why it's impossible to allow character customization such as the pale master bone arm, except if you alter every single outfit with a skeleton graft variation. Of course that also extends to every other body or armor modification, including tattoos. For each permutation of NWN tattoos you would have needed to make all those variations for every mesh that exposes the area of skin.

    The differences are actually quite problematic when you get down to it.
    voidofopinionHunterRayder93
  • MrDamageMrDamage Member Posts: 210
    edited January 2018
    It’s true that opinions are like assholes, everybodies got one. If you ask the question nwn1 vs 2 on a site dedicated to the resurrection of nwn1, you may not get an entirely balanced argument. But that’s cause nwn1 is overall and always will be way better then nwn2.

    Id also just add at the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is your own. You’ll have to try both games to be sure. Someone tried to sell me a car once, pointed out how many more and better features it had, but it just didn’t feel right to drive at the end of the day despite all the bells and whistles. It ain’t just about the stats either.
    Post edited by MrDamage on
    TheGmork
  • InflatableFriendInflatableFriend Member Posts: 57
    There's a few things I miss about the NWN2 toolset, terrain in particular.

    If there could be some way of choosing between heightmap or tile based environments that'd be a real boon (especially if you could specify texture/mesh density according to your needs and cut holes in the terrain).

    Granted it's a lot harder to make good looking areas, tilesets lend themselves to quick layout and iteration in a way that rolling heightmapped terrain doesn't. Still, as an 'advanced' or specific build option in the toolset it would be simply fantastic.

    Making one shot tilesets out of terrain put together in an outside package is doable, but really time intensive - It'd really need to be a special case!
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    One piece of functionality from NWN2 that I’d love to see in NWN is the campaign folder. I know it doesn’t seem like much, but for example a Greyhawk campaign consisting remade PNP modules (of which there are plenty of examples) with the ability to bring henchmen along for the full ride would be great.
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,481
    The tools already exist for overland maps. Forget Darkness over Daggerford. See Map Mats. The placeables are there. All it takes is some scripting and you can have whatever type of overland map you want. (and yes I am the person who created Map Mats). Also, it is not the only system (but did you really think I was going to promote somebody else's work? :p )

    TR
    voidofopinionLilura
  • LiluraLilura Member Posts: 148
    Rifkin said:


    Full Party control is a single player feature, whether it gets implemented or not is of little importance to most of the NWN players I know.

    Who cares about the handful you know? Who are you and they in the Infinity, Aurora and Electron communities? The point is that FPC is a strong selling-point for Electron over Aurora. Very strong. Many people will always find Electron attractive due to its employment of FPC, the omission of which by BioWare I have argued was their single biggest mistake.
    Overland Map can be done already with NWN1, sure it's not easy for people who don't know what they are doing, but obviously you are not aware of what is or isn't capable with NWN if you're saying this. (See Darkness over Daggerford module)
    Reading comprehension? I said real-time OLM as employed in Storm of Zehir and the likes of Bedine, Legacy of White Plume Mountain, Candle Cove and Misery Stone. DoD doesn't have a real-time OLM. Don't tell me what DoD does and doesn't have. I wrote a starting point for it.

    And Ossian dev, Luspr, wrote what amounts to a retrospective on my blog, too.
    Interesting that you are aware people have no interest in this feature, why you suggest writing off people's opinions is just baffling.
    If people have "no interest" (ignorance) in the most powerful and flexible cam in the genre (Electron Strategy cam), then that's their problem. I have highlighted its strengths which no one has been able to devalue since. Point 2 of this write-up, for example.
    This is quite a negative outlook. Given that the UI refactor is one of the most requested feature, and is a blocking path to other features, this is likely to be something core to the NWN:EE. Furthermore, I believe that the programmers are quite capable of exceeding the Electron's implementation. XML is nothing special, modern coding tools already let you generate an XML schema from any class/object.
    It's still doubtful that Beamdog can match the Electron UI in terms of power and versatility. If they can, I'll praise them. If they can't, I'll criticize them. They didn't exactly blow my hair back with the IE:EE UIs.

    XML is pretty special. Again, go and play The Scroll.
    Subjective. NWN2 looks horrid in my opinion. Sure, it's got more polygons. Sure it's got higher resolution textures. That does not mean much. Especially when artistic value is taken on a person to person basis. I personally enjoy the elegance in the simplicity of NWN1's graphics. Besides, I'm here to play DND and let my imagination do the work. The pixels are just for reference.
    You are dreaming if you think NWN:EE can look this good.

    Of course, Aurora looks better than Electron in some ways, too (its anims). But the point is that some people like Electron terrains, shadows, lightning and VFX (highlighted in the above link). That it's more difficult to achieve good visual results in Electron than it is in Aurora, doesn't change a thing; f.e, good terrain sculptures yield superior environmental results than the best tilesets, full stop. Default Electron foliage blows away modded Aurora, too.

    If you want to let your imagination go to work, go and play tabletop with no visual points of reference. To say you'd rather look at a bunch of triangles and N64 visuals for "role-playing reasons" is just laughable.
    Mask of the Betrayer is good, and Obsidian has always been excellent at crafting a story. Where you have decidedly marked Beamdog as incomptent when it comes to story crafting, I am unsure. Siege of Dragonspear was a great addition to the BG series, and honestly we can both argue until we're blue in the face on this, but only the future can really tell if a new NWN story will be good or not.
    MotB is "good"? I doubt you have even played it. MotB is one of the greatest campaigns in the genre, arguably beating out PS:T. And it's not just its story: it's also its dialogue, characterizations, aesthetics, campaign/quest structure, lore and resource management. Again, I've covered Siege of Dragonspear in more depth than anyone. Don't tell me what Siege of Dragonspear is.

    To put it gently, its "narrative design" is not its strong point. aVENGER's encounter design, scripted waylays and itemization is what saved it from utter mediocrity.
    "More balanced overview/impression." ... I have to really question that. Everyone has their biases. Yours and mine are showing.
    Speak for yourself in regard to bias. My blog covers Infinity, Aurora and Electron. I don't succumb to petty partisanry like many members of each community. I praise the virtues and criticize the flaws of each engine. Please show me where you have done that, in-depth. Or where anyone else has, in the past or present.
    Anyway, hope you don't mind my rebuttal, no hard feelings or insult meant.
    I post on the Codex: you couldn't hurt my feelings if you called me "a c**t" and Trent came along and clicked "Insightful."
    cherryzeroBelleSorcierebritishj
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    To add to Lilura's post, I know I've been saying "check out some of the area design for BG2 reloaded," but really, check it out...

    https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4739585-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-reloaded/page-13

    The link shows Brynnlaw and really, it's amazing. It's just something you can't create in NWN:EE. And to be fair, Trent made a point on today's liveblog about choosing not to do height mapping because it is much more difficult to hop in and generate areas on the fly that way. I think that's a perfectly valid point that goes back to my original observation; the NWN 2 toolset is more powerful, but more difficult to use.
    Lilura
  • LiluraLilura Member Posts: 148

    The tools already exist for overland maps. Forget Darkness over Daggerford. See Map Mats. The placeables are there. All it takes is some scripting and you can have whatever type of overland map you want. (and yes I am the person who created Map Mats). Also, it is not the only system (but did you really think I was going to promote somebody else's work? :p )

    TR

    Where are the real-time roaming enemies with options to avoid/delay combat (based on an array of stats, including social checks, speed, stealth, itemization), random treasure finds (based on an array of stats), movement penalties dependent on terrain (based on an array of stats), terrain undulation, animated placeables, day/night cycle and ability to set up camp?

    Not to devalue the efforts of respected community members who have churned out something noble within the primitive constraints of vanilla Aurora, but Map Mats and the Ossian OLM are not comparable to the Electron OLM, and if Beamdog don't have the will to employ such an OLM, Electron remains attractive in this regard (and in regard to the other features enumerated by me, above).
This discussion has been closed.