NWN EE versus NWN2
Tugdual
Member Posts: 2
Naive question: As I started playing NWN2 again recently, I was wondering if NWN EE would not simply becomes NWN2? What more/different do we expect? Wouldn't it be simpler to port NWN1 scenarios into NWN2?
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Nwn1 can never be nwn2. Especially since they want nwn modules to be compatible with nwn ee and visa Versa.
Now you want nwn modules to be importable into nwn2?
Gah!
Best thing to hope for is all the features in nwn2 (and more) to be added to nwn1.
But since we are on the subject I would like Beamdog to allow import and export of nwn, bg and iwd characters.
Pronto!
Nwn2 has a good story and many more features that will hopefully be in nwn.
So the ability to port that data into nwn2 isn’t appealing
-JFK
Aside from building though, the gameplay was made awkward to me by controls that felt unresponsive, cameras that felt out of control, animations that looked wooden and unconvincing, and really, sad to say, a whole that felt -- unfinished.
As I said, I did enjoy NWN2. I enjoy many games. But if we must compare them, the enjoyment I got and still get from NWN far and away surpasses what I got from NWN2.
Clear as mud?
-JFK
Also, it’s funny because I felt the camera controls were much better in NWN2. I don’t like having to use keys to tilt up and down in NWN.
Ultimately I think there’s a few things that NWN2 did better...
Customizable UI
Full Party Control
Ability to switch camera modes in the fly
3.5 rules
Graphics
That I’m hoping NWN:EE will be able to implement or even improve upon.
But I’m pretty agnostic about the games themselves. Had fun playing both for many years.
-JFK
ps The one thing I really thought was better was the QuickCast menu. That was a real improvement.
Yeah apologies to the nwn2 fans but that’s my take on it.
TR
But it is a lot more work. And because of that you can just not get the sheet number of community made modules we have in NWN.
And again I’m not trying to stir the pot or say one is better than the other. Just different results for different approaches to area construction.
NWN2 just doesn't feel good to play and looks bad in motion. It's a game that seemingly doesn't want to be liked. Like when one friend introduces you to another but tells you "He is a complete asshole but once you get to know him he warms up and he is a riot!"
Only no matter how much time I put in, NWN2 never got more likable.
It's hypothetically possible to take the geometry of an NWN2 exterior area and recreate it as a set of 3D modeled tiles and then import it as a single use tileset for a single area in NWN. It would take up more space than it's worth but probably a similar amount as an NWN2 exterior area. It could also hypothetically be possible for Beamdog to add a height map morphing tool into the toolset that automates this process, but I'm not really sure why you would bother. If it's something folks really want then maybe they can vote for such an option.
So you can import height mapped geometry into NWN but on the other hand you can't take any arbitrary geometry that isn't created from evenly spaced vertices and recreate it with a height map.
The wikipedia page for The Witcher also alludes to the limits of tilesets on a fundamental level as offset by creative use of your 3D program. "One of the most important features of the Aurora Engine is that the world is designed exactly as the developers envisioned, rather than using a tile-based system. All the environments are developed in 3ds Max and then exported into the game engine. As a result, developers can create unique game worlds, rather than recycling the same tiled objects over and over again. CD Projekt's version of the engine supports lightmaps generated in 3ds Max. Shadows generated this way are reported to look more realistic, and provide better game performance."
That is 3D models can have any arbitrary geometry whereas height maps must necessarily follow unrealistic restrictions.
Another big difference is how they decided to create character models and why it's impossible to allow character customization such as the pale master bone arm, except if you alter every single outfit with a skeleton graft variation. Of course that also extends to every other body or armor modification, including tattoos. For each permutation of NWN tattoos you would have needed to make all those variations for every mesh that exposes the area of skin.
The differences are actually quite problematic when you get down to it.
I would say that Aurora outstrips Electron all things considered, but I would add that some of the negative opinions parroted about in regard to Electron stem from ignorance and pre-patch experiences. Of course, I'm not saying NWN2 doesn't have more than its fair share of issues - even post-patch - but they are overblown.
NWN:EE will be compared to Electron, as I said in one of my articles. That's inevitable. In some ways, we already have a NWN:EE staring us right in the face; it's called NWN2.
Can Beamdog employ FPC? Doubtful.
Can Beamdog employ real-time OLM? Doubtful.
Can Beamdog employ Strategy mode cam, the most powerful and versatile cam ever seen in the genre? Doubtful. (write off the opinion of anyone who disgrees with this; they don't have the basic gaming aptitude required to set it up.)
Can Beadmog facilitate an advanced and moddable UI on par with Electron XML? Doubtful. Go and check out The Scroll for what can be done.
Can Beamdog make NWN:EE look as good as NWN2 in every single way? No. Can modders? No.
Can Beamdog design a campaign as good as Mask of the Betrayer, even if Gaider stepped in (which he won't)? Not in a million years. Not even Gaider could write MotB. Just watch what comes out of his next project: more 6.5/10 "narrative design" (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).
No matter how much Beamdog "steps forward" NWN:EE, NWN2 will always be alluring to those who grow tired of Aurora limitations (and vice versa). It's for that reason that I've covered Infinity, Aurora and Electron in the first place (again, more than anyone else, ever). If Aurora offered everything, why would I do that?
For those who don't know much about Aurora or Electron, I would suggest taking the casual ramblings of forum-goers with a grain of salt. Go and read my blog for a more balanced overview/impression.
Id also just add at the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is your own. You’ll have to try both games to be sure. Someone tried to sell me a car once, pointed out how many more and better features it had, but it just didn’t feel right to drive at the end of the day despite all the bells and whistles. It ain’t just about the stats either.
If there could be some way of choosing between heightmap or tile based environments that'd be a real boon (especially if you could specify texture/mesh density according to your needs and cut holes in the terrain).
Granted it's a lot harder to make good looking areas, tilesets lend themselves to quick layout and iteration in a way that rolling heightmapped terrain doesn't. Still, as an 'advanced' or specific build option in the toolset it would be simply fantastic.
Making one shot tilesets out of terrain put together in an outside package is doable, but really time intensive - It'd really need to be a special case!
Overland Map can be done already with NWN1, sure it's not easy for people who don't know what they are doing, but obviously you are not aware of what is or isn't capable with NWN if you're saying this. (See Darkness over Daggerford module)
Interesting that you are aware people have no interest in this feature, why you suggest writing off people's opinions is just baffling. This is quite a negative outlook. Given that the UI refactor is one of the most requested feature, and is a blocking path to other features, this is likely to be something core to the NWN:EE. Furthermore, I believe that the programmers are quite capable of exceeding the Electron's implementation. XML is nothing special, modern coding tools already let you generate an XML schema from any class/object. Subjective. NWN2 looks horrid in my opinion. Sure, it's got more polygons. Sure it's got higher resolution textures. That does not mean much. Especially when artistic value is taken on a person to person basis. I personally enjoy the elegance in the simplicity of NWN1's graphics. Besides, I'm here to play DND and let my imagination do the work. The pixels are just for reference. Mask of the Betrayer is good, and Obsidian has always been excellent at crafting a story. Where you have decidedly marked Beamdog as incomptent when it comes to story crafting, I am unsure. Siege of Dragonspear was a great addition to the BG series, and honestly we can both argue until we're blue in the face on this, but only the future can really tell if a new NWN story will be good or not. "More balanced overview/impression." ... I have to really question that. Everyone has their biases. Yours and mine are showing.
Instead, everyone should take any opinion with 'a grain of salt', or perhaps a critical eye.
Anyway, hope you don't mind my rebuttal, no hard feelings or insult meant.
TR
And Ossian dev, Luspr, wrote what amounts to a retrospective on my blog, too. If people have "no interest" (ignorance) in the most powerful and flexible cam in the genre (Electron Strategy cam), then that's their problem. I have highlighted its strengths which no one has been able to devalue since. Point 2 of this write-up, for example. It's still doubtful that Beamdog can match the Electron UI in terms of power and versatility. If they can, I'll praise them. If they can't, I'll criticize them. They didn't exactly blow my hair back with the IE:EE UIs.
XML is pretty special. Again, go and play The Scroll. You are dreaming if you think NWN:EE can look this good.
Of course, Aurora looks better than Electron in some ways, too (its anims). But the point is that some people like Electron terrains, shadows, lightning and VFX (highlighted in the above link). That it's more difficult to achieve good visual results in Electron than it is in Aurora, doesn't change a thing; f.e, good terrain sculptures yield superior environmental results than the best tilesets, full stop. Default Electron foliage blows away modded Aurora, too.
If you want to let your imagination go to work, go and play tabletop with no visual points of reference. To say you'd rather look at a bunch of triangles and N64 visuals for "role-playing reasons" is just laughable. MotB is "good"? I doubt you have even played it. MotB is one of the greatest campaigns in the genre, arguably beating out PS:T. And it's not just its story: it's also its dialogue, characterizations, aesthetics, campaign/quest structure, lore and resource management. Again, I've covered Siege of Dragonspear in more depth than anyone. Don't tell me what Siege of Dragonspear is.
To put it gently, its "narrative design" is not its strong point. aVENGER's encounter design, scripted waylays and itemization is what saved it from utter mediocrity. Speak for yourself in regard to bias. My blog covers Infinity, Aurora and Electron. I don't succumb to petty partisanry like many members of each community. I praise the virtues and criticize the flaws of each engine. Please show me where you have done that, in-depth. Or where anyone else has, in the past or present. I post on the Codex: you couldn't hurt my feelings if you called me "a c**t" and Trent came along and clicked "Insightful."
https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/4739585-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn-reloaded/page-13
The link shows Brynnlaw and really, it's amazing. It's just something you can't create in NWN:EE. And to be fair, Trent made a point on today's liveblog about choosing not to do height mapping because it is much more difficult to hop in and generate areas on the fly that way. I think that's a perfectly valid point that goes back to my original observation; the NWN 2 toolset is more powerful, but more difficult to use.
Not to devalue the efforts of respected community members who have churned out something noble within the primitive constraints of vanilla Aurora, but Map Mats and the Ossian OLM are not comparable to the Electron OLM, and if Beamdog don't have the will to employ such an OLM, Electron remains attractive in this regard (and in regard to the other features enumerated by me, above).