In 3.0 summon monsters tends to be stronger than in 3.5. Sure, some monsters are different but in you can summon d4+1(2~5) Djinnis with a single spell slot.
You're absolutely incorrect about your understanding of the summons and the power of the various creatures. In both 3.0 and 3.5 even the elder earth elemental is weaker than it is in NWN.
Another problem is that using 3.0 then no amount of earth elementals will get through the 50 odd iron golem dr in 3.0. Then if your argument is that with multiple castings of a 9th level spell you'll be able to overpower a single creature then you would be right, up until about 6 seconds per caster level, rather than 24 hour duration.
Also you are right at level 17 (CR 17) you can summon 1d4+1 CR 5 (level 5 equivalent) creatures, which wont be beneficial in the way you seem to think it will be.
So if you want to enhance summons then explain what you want instead of arguing incorrectly about other systems.
You want multiple summons.... anything else? more hp? more levels? give them all fighter levels? increase their attack bonus or AC?
What exactly do you want? Obviously you don't want it to be like pnp.
You're absolutely incorrect about your understanding of the summons and the power of the various creatures. In both 3.0 and 3.5 even the elder earth elemental is weaker than it is in NWN.
Another problem is that using 3.0 then no amount of earth elementals will get through the 50 odd iron golem dr in 3.0. Then if your argument is that with multiple castings of a 9th level spell you'll be able to overpower a single creature then you would be right, up until about 6 seconds per caster level, rather than 24 hour duration.
Also you are right at level 17 (CR 17) you can summon 1d4+1 CR 5 (level 5 equivalent) creatures, which wont be beneficial in the way you seem to think it will be.
So if you want to enhance summons then explain what you want instead of arguing incorrectly about other systems.
You want multiple summons.... anything else? more hp? more levels? give them all fighter levels? increase their attack bonus or AC?
What exactly do you want? Obviously you don't want it to be like pnp.
No, you misunderstood the rule. Some spells have a HD cap, but not allhttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Animate_Dead " the character can control only 2 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. "
You have a very incorrect understanding of the rules. For example in animate dead you miss "This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creature" and " into undead skeletons or zombies" which are sorted by base creature size in 3.0 (1hd for medium sized ie humans, 8hd for huge i.e. giants and titans ) and further states in the spell "The statistics for a skeleton depend on its size; they do not depend on what abilities the creature may have had while alive." and "Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The creature must have a true anatomy. The statistics for a zombie depend on its size, not on what abilities the creature may have had while alive."
Now are you saying that a 1/3 CR skeleton is more powerful than the "weaker" than the custom skeleton chieftain which even comes with a free magic weapon?
Even in 3.5 the template reads "Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. "
For Gate you also fail to mention the additional cost "1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function). " and the limit on your control of the summon to one specific task, such as only one battle "A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task;"
So I don't know what game you're talking about but it's definitely not pnp D&D. You are not asking for the spells to function like D&D because you are saying you want them to be stronger.
It's like saying "I won't want this +3 sword at level 1 instead I want a much more powerful +1 sword" it makes no sense.
Now are you saying that a 1/3 CR skeleton is more powerful than the "weaker" than the custom skeleton chieftain which even comes with a free magic weapon?(1)
Even in 3.5 the template reads "Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. (2)"
For Gate you also fail to mention the additional cost "1,000 XP(3) (...)
So I don't know what game you're talking about but it's definitely not pnp D&D(4). You are not asking for the spells to function like D&D because you are saying you want them to be stronger.(5)
1 - Where i have said that??????? And of course, a group of buffed skeletons can kill a chieftain. 2 - Where i have said that very powerful creatures(above 20 level) can be turned into a skeleton????? 3 - A lot of spells have expensive materiel components and XP requirements while in game don`t have. If this should be added to the game is other debate since creatures gives different XP compared to PnP.... I din`t failed to mention. 4 - Of corse is DnD, only because i din`t detailed everything about the rules, only mentioned some differences, this means that every source that i`ve posted here isn`t D&D? Is that serious? 5 - Of course i want VIABLE summons.
I propose a simple CHALLENGE. Finish the OC and HOTU expansion with a Wizard specialized in Conjuration at max difficulty(was my first nwn character). Imagine that someone mention a soccer rule that is different from a virtual soccer game. He needs to mention all soccer rules otherwise he is not talking about soccer? That is what "failed to mention" is... Also, this topic is not only asking pnp summoning. Is PnP summoning OR IWD summoning(NOTE : OR and AND are not the same thing before you put words in my mouth)
I propose a simple CHALLENGE. Finish the OC and HOTU expansion with a Wizard specialized in Conjuration at max difficulty
Mestil's acid sheath and epic warding. GG WP 90% of all encounters.
For the others, I'm sure you could probably get away with different tactics involving summons to tank spells and/or deal damage.
The original campaign and the expansions are not really challenging at all.
Mephistopheles dispel you and teleport you to melee range. Without time stop you simple can't "recast" your spells, a lv 25 Wiz will probably gonna die in one round(remember : max difficulty).... Good lucky against him, against Sodalis, Mithral Golems, rakshasas, etc without Shapechange, Time stop, Greater sanctuary, Flesh to stone, haste, Tenser's Transformation(...) ( http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Transmutation )
All you're doing is shifting goal posts and mixing up all of your editions and not properly comparing the various products of each different rules system. The only thing you don't seem to want to do is specifically detail what it is you want to change.
It doesn't mean anything if you say "better like IWD or pnp" when it's actually even weaker or the context is meaningless such as your vs iron golem example.
Your example of many skeletons vs a skeleton chieftain is also incorrect. Medium skeletons don't even do enough damage to pierce the DR, even buffed they would rarely do damage. Working out both stat blocks I find that you would need 56 or more skeletons on average to beat a skeleton chieftain.
If you want to improve summons then say that and give examples of how you want them improved. Don't just say a lot of unrelated things and make vague references to pnp where you draw wrong conclusions. I'm not being mean but if someone took what you said seriously then it wont be like how you want it to be, it would be much weaker.
"Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon monster I, except that you can summon one creature from the 2nd-level list or 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 1st-level list. "
So yes, in 3.5 you can summon multiple creatures with Summon Monster II through IX.
One iron golem defeats an elemental BUT 3 elementas + 3 shades "buffed"...
PS : No, NWN din't boosted summons. Nerfed in number and in strength. Summon monster IX can summon a celestial roc and a lot of other powerful creatures http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Summon_Monster
Clearly a duration change from 1 round per CL to 24 hours is a huge nerf. . . because the elder air elemental which is one of the possibilities summoned by level 9 summon creature has the same stats as the one the spell summons in PnP.
Yes in PnP the spell can summon multiple summons that a lower level summon creature would, but it also does not last 24 hours and each of those creatures are individually weaker. The point is, with the duration you can actually buff your summon to be something decent with a spell duration that could with a few buffs see you through an entire dungeon.
Quality and Duration over quantity and having to throw more and more spell slots away every minute or two to make the handful of weaker summons able to face what you're facing. If your one level 9 summon isn't cutting it against a high epic challenge there's no way three weaker summons are going to cut it particularly when buffing them will cost you far more slots with far less bang for your buck as they vanish in 4 minutes (level 40 cl) or less.
All you're doing is shifting goal posts and mixing up all of your editions and not properly comparing the various products of each different rules system. The only thing you don't seem to want to do is specifically detail what it is you want to change.
It doesn't mean anything if you say "better like IWD or pnp" when it's actually even weaker or the context is meaningless such as your vs iron golem example.
Your example of many skeletons vs a skeleton chieftain is also incorrect. Medium skeletons don't even do enough damage to pierce the DR, even buffed they would rarely do damage. Working out both stat blocks I find that you would need 56 or more skeletons on average to beat a skeleton chieftain.
If you want to improve summons then say that and give examples of how you want them improved. Don't just say a lot of unrelated things and make vague references to pnp where you draw wrong conclusions. I'm not being mean but if someone took what you said seriously then it wont be like how you want it to be, it would be much weaker.
No, i an not mixing editions. Only mentioning how work in other games and in other editions to show how summoning in nwn1 have nothing to do with IWD or with PnP 2.0, 3.0 and 3.5...
And you CLEARLY never played PnP. The point of having a lot of skeletons is not to defeat a monster with DR. Against monsters with DR, skeletons are good only to prevent the chieftain to get close to the caster/party. To fight a chieftain you need better undeads.
And you keep saying that remove a limit that only exists in NWN will make summoning weaker. How? How 5+ skeletons will be weaker than a single skeleton? How A Spell like Elemental swarm will be weaker if can summon more elementals? I know that the minutes to appear are hard to implement, but no summoning spell is better in NWN than in PnP.
One iron golem defeats an elemental BUT 3 elementas + 3 shades "buffed"...
PS : No, NWN din't boosted summons. Nerfed in number and in strength. Summon monster IX can summon a celestial roc and a lot of other powerful creatures http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Summon_Monster
Clearly a duration change from 1 round per CL to 24 hours is a huge nerf. . . because the elder air elemental which is one of the possibilities summoned by level 9 summon creature has the same stats as the one the spell summons in PnP.
Yes in PnP the spell can summon multiple summons that a lower level summon creature would, but it also does not last 24 hours and each of those creatures are individually weaker. The point is, with the duration you can actually buff your summon to be something decent with a spell duration that could with a few buffs see you through an entire dungeon.
Quality and Duration over quantity and having to throw more and more spell slots away every minute or two to make the handful of weaker summons able to face what you're facing. If your one level 9 summon isn't cutting it against a high epic challenge there's no way three weaker summons are going to cut it particularly when buffing them will cost you far more slots with far less bang for your buck as they vanish in 4 minutes (level 40 cl) or less.
No, you are completely wrong. The greatest summon in game "Lesser Demilich" can die IN ONE ROUND by a sunbeam. Doesn't matter if the summon lasts for 24 hours or can be permanently summoned. He can easily die in one round. You keep saying "quality over quantity", but no, summons are not good in quantity or in quality. My Shades in IWD can easily kill any summon in NWN. 3 Fire/Earth elementals summoned in conjunction with a spell trigger can kill any summon in NWN. You are not trading quantity by quality compared with IWD, i know that are different rulesets, but only mentioning IWD as an example because IWD is more close to PnP rules for summoning(this doesn't means that IWD is 100% like PnP).
Try play hotu at max difficulty with a conjurer wizard. You will probably have a hard time passing the chapter one. And even if you pass the Rakshasa's, your 24 hours summons will die in one round to mitrhal golems... Against mephistopheles, any summon that you use will certainly die in one round.
You probably only played low level. Yes, summons are little useful as meatshields at low level. But any melee henchman + buffs is better and you don't need to waste spell slots summoning a henchman. The unique summon that is little useful in high level is the Dragon Knight. And even an epic summon is only useful against an weak army or to be a meatshield.
I used a lot of summon in IWD and in BG. NWN is the first game that summon moster is ALMOST useless. In IWD before summon moster I and after, the game become much more easier to a solo sorc, in nwn is completely useless... Sure, Mordenkainen's sword and Celestial avenger( http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Mordenkainen's_sword ) with a lot of buffs can be little useful as meatshield before epic levels, but both only lasts 1 round/CL(not complaining about that)
Summon spells are relatively easy to edit as to what they summon. You build a monster you want, give it the same set of scripts any other summon has, then put its resref into the right spot in the script. Some of them are setup for alignment based summons already. Since PWs or any module vary so much by power level, I think discussing strength of individual summons isn't necessary - as we can/should leave that up to the builders to decide.
The part I'd like to see (and think we need) is an easier, engine supported method for creating the army or squad. And possibly, a method for buffing them.
It isn't that I can't do this, but it was a lot of work and since I'm an amateur scripter, it is still buggy.
If Beamdog is going forward with any new modules, then I think fleshing out the summoner/necromancer and having spells with subradial options to summon varied squads would be good fun.
Here's what I do for any summons:
You summon the creature.
A few seconds later, a function identifies the newly summoned creature and buffs it.
The buffs are dependent on the character's level and focus feats.
The buffs are things like: AB/AC/temp HP/attacks/save bonuses/regen/damage immunity/damage bonuses/etc
This means the same boar summoned by a 40 will stomp a lvl5's boar. But a lvl21 with epic spell focus conjuration will summon a boar that is on par with the lvl40's.
I haven't gone so far as to create squads with regular summons or take into account specialist wizards. IIRC, we are in need of a function to determine if a wizard is a specialist and which it is.
I've done more with the palemaster feats:
I cycle thru the existing summons and count their value (something I set when I made them).
I calculate a summoning score based on necromancy focus feats, palemaster levels and a random roll component.
I subtract off the value of anything already summoned.
Then I use the remaining points to summon the strongest thing possible from the spell's list and deduct its point value from the score.
I repeat this until there aren't enough points left to summon anything else.
This will build a squad of varied undead (usually 2-4) and it's very fun. And since my system buffs them as you grow in levels and focus feats, the lower level feats and summons don't become obsolete so fast.
The problem with a huge squad of relatively weak summons is it is relatively ineffectual in NWN. They might slow your opponent or absorb spells, but often do little to nothing. A single strong summon is way better.
To make swarms more dangerous, I use the module heartbeat to see if something is in combat and how many hostile creatures are within a certain radius of it. They then get a roll based on tumble and stuff and depending on the outcome, they might lose significant AC if they become "swarmed and unable to maneuver". I likely only get away with this since it is a 1-2 player module.
What I'm saying is, a big army will probably lag PWs but are often not overly useful either - though undeniably cool. But either way, we could use a simpler way to create whatever size of army we want.
A good start would be to have Summon Creature I and II summon something cooler than... a badger and a boar. I find myself not using those at all because I don't want badgers running around my Wizard for image reasons.
Also, Clerics need deity specific summons instead of summoning the exact same boars and badgers, regardles of faith.
Then, the satisfaction of playing a Conjurer or Necromancer lies in the ability to summon your own personal army, even a small one. One creature at a time just doesn't cut it.
@1varangian Is there anything stopping that from being done via modding? It seems conceptually simple to me to replace the summon creature .nss files to do what you want.
The only thing that's a bit... eh is the diety bit since NWN1 only has a text field for your diety. You can get around this by just having a policy on the games you play that you'll type in one of a set list of dieties.
--EDIT--
Missed the multiple summons bit. It's been suggested a bunch of times (including by me). The PRC manages to do it in a really hacky way that often results in un-unsummonable minions. It also tanks your XP gain.
@Plok Its very easy to replace whats summoned by summon creature. All of the summon creature spells use a master script (NW_S0_Summon, I'm pretty sure) that determines the summon at each spell. Just make a creature, give it summoned creature scripts, and replace the tag in the script with the new creature's, and presto you have a level 1 balor as your first level summon.
I think a lot of what has been discussed here was already outined in the Trello card. I want to say it's important to note, as some others have said, this is Neverwinter Nights - not 3e, IWD, PRC, and not PnP, even if it's of course based on those systems. Both from a mechanics and a roleplay aspect things need to be examined from a NWN point of view.
There are definitely issues with summoning and summoners - anyone who has played the game will agree, and the Trello card already accurately defines what those problems are. However, I think most of those issues are something that players can easily take care of (and tailor to their own server) if they give us more comprehensive tools to edit spells. I think that having Beamdog tackle this issue would be treating the symptom, not the disease.
@Faerûn Agreed. Instead of doing any kind of balancing or fixing, we should be leaving them as they are and de-hardcoding them so they can be modified. I'd go even further than "this is Neverwinter Nights" - it should be "this is module/persistent server $name".
I think a lot of what has been discussed here was already outined in the Trello card. I want to say it's important to note, as some others have said, this is Neverwinter Nights - not 3e, IWD, PRC, and not PnP, even if it's of course based on those systems. Both from a mechanics and a roleplay aspect things need to be examined from a NWN point of view.
There are definitely issues with summoning and summoners - anyone who has played the game will agree, and the Trello card already accurately defines what those problems are. However, I think most of those issues are something that players can easily take care of (and tailor to their own server) if they give us more comprehensive tools to edit spells. I think that having Beamdog tackle this issue would be treating the symptom, not the disease.
There are 654654365347653 RPG's who doesn't follow D&D rules. Neverwinter nights should be closer to D&D rules as possible because is the game propose and the fact that there are few games who tries to follow pnp rules.
@1varangian Yup. Pretty easily actually. You just gotta make a seperate spell for each creature you want to summon and then fill out the SubRadSpell1 to SubRadSpell5 columns on the Summon Creature entries in spells.2da. Unfortunately, there's a limit of 5 sub-spells for any given spell.
Sorry for casting animate dead on my thread BUT only to mention that i finally managed to get the same felling of PnP summoner on a cRPG, in the case : Pathfinder Kingmaker
Not all PnP mobs are in the game but you can summon a lot of monsters mainly with the right feats
This is much more cool than a demilich that can easily die in one round but some people believe that he is "buffed" because he lasts until the first battle and not few rounds... NWN is a epic game and conjuration/necromancy should be viable n NWN. Not only you are limited to one summon but the lack of casting progression just kills the viability of pale master for eg. Is just like the class was never implemented.
Comments
Another problem is that using 3.0 then no amount of earth elementals will get through the 50 odd iron golem dr in 3.0. Then if your argument is that with multiple castings of a 9th level spell you'll be able to overpower a single creature then you would be right, up until about 6 seconds per caster level, rather than 24 hour duration.
Also you are right at level 17 (CR 17) you can summon 1d4+1 CR 5 (level 5 equivalent) creatures, which wont be beneficial in the way you seem to think it will be.
So if you want to enhance summons then explain what you want instead of arguing incorrectly about other systems.
You want multiple summons.... anything else? more hp? more levels? give them all fighter levels? increase their attack bonus or AC?
What exactly do you want? Obviously you don't want it to be like pnp.
But a non epic Wiz can use a Gate to call a Solar(23 CR) and a lot of DM uses homebrew rules to limit Gate spell(
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/25827/what-is-the-best-way-to-prevent-abuse-of-the-gate-spell ) because gate is too than good... Note that if you animate more dead than you can control, you don`t "banish" then. You lose control over your undeads.
I an suggesting that summoning become like 3.0 PnP, 3.5 PnP or like IWD:EE I AN NOT ASKING FOR ANY BUFF and already said that many times.
A lot of people are against the 6 summon limit in IWD:EE/BG:EE.
See here https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/6858/limitation-to-number-of-controlled-summons and here https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/30705/breaking-the-summoning-limit
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Animate Dead 4 HD per caster level, no single undead with more than 2 HD per caster level
Desecrate raises the limitation from 2 max HD per Cleric Level to 4 HD per Cleric level http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Discussion:How_many_undead_can_you_control?
Now are you saying that a 1/3 CR skeleton is more powerful than the "weaker" than the custom skeleton chieftain which even comes with a free magic weapon?
Even in 3.5 the template reads "Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s. If the creature has more than 20 Hit Dice, it can’t be made into a skeleton by the animate dead spell. "
For Gate you also fail to mention the additional cost "1,000 XP (only for the calling creatures function). " and the limit on your control of the summon to one specific task, such as only one battle "A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task;"
So I don't know what game you're talking about but it's definitely not pnp D&D. You are not asking for the spells to function like D&D because you are saying you want them to be stronger.
It's like saying "I won't want this +3 sword at level 1 instead I want a much more powerful +1 sword" it makes no sense.
2 - Where i have said that very powerful creatures(above 20 level) can be turned into a skeleton?????
3 - A lot of spells have expensive materiel components and XP requirements while in game don`t have. If this should be added to the game is other debate since creatures gives different XP compared to PnP.... I din`t failed to mention.
4 - Of corse is DnD, only because i din`t detailed everything about the rules, only mentioned some differences, this means that every source that i`ve posted here isn`t D&D? Is that serious?
5 - Of course i want VIABLE summons.
I propose a simple CHALLENGE. Finish the OC and HOTU expansion with a Wizard specialized in Conjuration at max difficulty(was my first nwn character). Imagine that someone mention a soccer rule that is different from a virtual soccer game. He needs to mention all soccer rules otherwise he is not talking about soccer? That is what "failed to mention" is... Also, this topic is not only asking pnp summoning. Is PnP summoning OR IWD summoning(NOTE : OR and AND are not the same thing before you put words in my mouth)
For the others, I'm sure you could probably get away with different tactics involving summons to tank spells and/or deal damage.
The original campaign and the expansions are not really challenging at all.
It doesn't mean anything if you say "better like IWD or pnp" when it's actually even weaker or the context is meaningless such as your vs iron golem example.
Your example of many skeletons vs a skeleton chieftain is also incorrect. Medium skeletons don't even do enough damage to pierce the DR, even buffed they would rarely do damage. Working out both stat blocks I find that you would need 56 or more skeletons on average to beat a skeleton chieftain.
If you want to improve summons then say that and give examples of how you want them improved. Don't just say a lot of unrelated things and make vague references to pnp where you draw wrong conclusions. I'm not being mean but if someone took what you said seriously then it wont be like how you want it to be, it would be much weaker.
"Effect: One or more summoned creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
This spell functions like summon monster I, except that you can summon one creature from the 2nd-level list or 1d3 creatures of the same kind from the 1st-level list. "
So yes, in 3.5 you can summon multiple creatures with Summon Monster II through IX.
Yes in PnP the spell can summon multiple summons that a lower level summon creature would, but it also does not last 24 hours and each of those creatures are individually weaker. The point is, with the duration you can actually buff your summon to be something decent with a spell duration that could with a few buffs see you through an entire dungeon.
Quality and Duration over quantity and having to throw more and more spell slots away every minute or two to make the handful of weaker summons able to face what you're facing. If your one level 9 summon isn't cutting it against a high epic challenge there's no way three weaker summons are going to cut it particularly when buffing them will cost you far more slots with far less bang for your buck as they vanish in 4 minutes (level 40 cl) or less.
And you CLEARLY never played PnP. The point of having a lot of skeletons is not to defeat a monster with DR. Against monsters with DR, skeletons are good only to prevent the chieftain to get close to the caster/party. To fight a chieftain you need better undeads.
And you keep saying that remove a limit that only exists in NWN will make summoning weaker. How? How 5+ skeletons will be weaker than a single skeleton? How A Spell like Elemental swarm will be weaker if can summon more elementals? I know that the minutes to appear are hard to implement, but no summoning spell is better in NWN than in PnP.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Elemental_Swarm No, is not. See how Animate dead works http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Animate_Dead is far different
Also, even if you wanna have only one summon. Where is my celestial roc? No, you are completely wrong. The greatest summon in game "Lesser Demilich" can die IN ONE ROUND by a sunbeam. Doesn't matter if the summon lasts for 24 hours or can be permanently summoned. He can easily die in one round. You keep saying "quality over quantity", but no, summons are not good in quantity or in quality. My Shades in IWD can easily kill any summon in NWN. 3 Fire/Earth elementals summoned in conjunction with a spell trigger can kill any summon in NWN. You are not trading quantity by quality compared with IWD, i know that are different rulesets, but only mentioning IWD as an example because IWD is more close to PnP rules for summoning(this doesn't means that IWD is 100% like PnP).
Try play hotu at max difficulty with a conjurer wizard. You will probably have a hard time passing the chapter one. And even if you pass the Rakshasa's, your 24 hours summons will die in one round to mitrhal golems... Against mephistopheles, any summon that you use will certainly die in one round.
You probably only played low level. Yes, summons are little useful as meatshields at low level. But any melee henchman + buffs is better and you don't need to waste spell slots summoning a henchman. The unique summon that is little useful in high level is the Dragon Knight. And even an epic summon is only useful against an weak army or to be a meatshield.
I used a lot of summon in IWD and in BG. NWN is the first game that summon moster is ALMOST useless. In IWD before summon moster I and after, the game become much more easier to a solo sorc, in nwn is completely useless... Sure, Mordenkainen's sword and Celestial avenger( http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Mordenkainen's_sword ) with a lot of buffs can be little useful as meatshield before epic levels, but both only lasts 1 round/CL(not complaining about that)
And in IWD some summons "scale" with your level. See here how they are powerful in IWD https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36696/complete-summoning-analysis-hof
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Compare Elemental swarm in PnP with NwN. Note that in PnP is 10 min/CL.
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Elemental_Swarm
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Elemental_swarm
While we are at it. I request that the length of the spell be adjusted to match pnp. 1 round per level and not the 24 hour length it is now.
Animate dead is a completely different spell than summons spell. The title of this thread is about the summons spell.
The part I'd like to see (and think we need) is an easier, engine supported method for creating the army or squad. And possibly, a method for buffing them.
It isn't that I can't do this, but it was a lot of work and since I'm an amateur scripter, it is still buggy.
If Beamdog is going forward with any new modules, then I think fleshing out the summoner/necromancer and having spells with subradial options to summon varied squads would be good fun.
Here's what I do for any summons:
- You summon the creature.
- A few seconds later, a function identifies the newly summoned creature and buffs it.
- The buffs are dependent on the character's level and focus feats.
- The buffs are things like: AB/AC/temp HP/attacks/save bonuses/regen/damage immunity/damage bonuses/etc
- This means the same boar summoned by a 40 will stomp a lvl5's boar. But a lvl21 with epic spell focus conjuration will summon a boar that is on par with the lvl40's.
I haven't gone so far as to create squads with regular summons or take into account specialist wizards. IIRC, we are in need of a function to determine if a wizard is a specialist and which it is.I've done more with the palemaster feats:
- I cycle thru the existing summons and count their value (something I set when I made them).
- I calculate a summoning score based on necromancy focus feats, palemaster levels and a random roll component.
- I subtract off the value of anything already summoned.
- Then I use the remaining points to summon the strongest thing possible from the spell's list and deduct its point value from the score.
- I repeat this until there aren't enough points left to summon anything else.
This will build a squad of varied undead (usually 2-4) and it's very fun. And since my system buffs them as you grow in levels and focus feats, the lower level feats and summons don't become obsolete so fast.The problem with a huge squad of relatively weak summons is it is relatively ineffectual in NWN. They might slow your opponent or absorb spells, but often do little to nothing. A single strong summon is way better.
To make swarms more dangerous, I use the module heartbeat to see if something is in combat and how many hostile creatures are within a certain radius of it. They then get a roll based on tumble and stuff and depending on the outcome, they might lose significant AC if they become "swarmed and unable to maneuver". I likely only get away with this since it is a 1-2 player module.
What I'm saying is, a big army will probably lag PWs but are often not overly useful either - though undeniably cool. But either way, we could use a simpler way to create whatever size of army we want.
Also, Clerics need deity specific summons instead of summoning the exact same boars and badgers, regardles of faith.
Then, the satisfaction of playing a Conjurer or Necromancer lies in the ability to summon your own personal army, even a small one. One creature at a time just doesn't cut it.
The only thing that's a bit... eh is the diety bit since NWN1 only has a text field for your diety. You can get around this by just having a policy on the games you play that you'll type in one of a set list of dieties.
--EDIT--
Missed the multiple summons bit. It's been suggested a bunch of times (including by me). The PRC manages to do it in a really hacky way that often results in un-unsummonable minions. It also tanks your XP gain.
There are definitely issues with summoning and summoners - anyone who has played the game will agree, and the Trello card already accurately defines what those problems are. However, I think most of those issues are something that players can easily take care of (and tailor to their own server) if they give us more comprehensive tools to edit spells. I think that having Beamdog tackle this issue would be treating the symptom, not the disease.
Not all PnP mobs are in the game but you can summon a lot of monsters mainly with the right feats
This is much more cool than a demilich that can easily die in one round but some people believe that he is "buffed" because he lasts until the first battle and not few rounds... NWN is a epic game and conjuration/necromancy should be viable n NWN. Not only you are limited to one summon but the lack of casting progression just kills the viability of pale master for eg. Is just like the class was never implemented.