The redeeming of the terrible, horrible, no-good NWN Original Campaign for the EE
Ygramul
Member Posts: 1,059
Playing a bit through the Original Campaign, it occurred to me the daunting challenge that will be to sell NWN:EE to a new generation:
The Original Campaign (which every new buyer will try first) sucks terribly!
The DLCs are excellent compared, but now I remember why I played the OC exactly once in my lifetime, though I played the DLCs (or NWN2) multiple times (or the BG series countless times):
The OC is clunky, badly balanced, unchallenging, so very... rectangular, and poorly written.
All but the last two are redeemable in a new EE rendition!
Now, I imagine that Beamdog is contractually obliged to leave the OC content untouched and is better off developing a new campaign....
... BUT ...
... what if Beamdog released an Original Campaign-plus at no-charge:
NOT a complete re-do of the OC (would take too many resources for too little return), but a minor tweak of the broken systems in the OC:
1. Fix the rest system (**TOP PRIORITY**).
This would render dungeon-delving to have consequences, rather than squatting to refill spellbook every other minute. Relatedly, remove or redo the Stone of Recall thing. (Even SoU replaces it with a more dignified version.)
2. Fix the clunky Henchmen (Already mods do this partially.)
3. Incorporate some merits of other DLC contents (Feats and skills added after the OC; maybe toss in mount or so.)
4. Fix the annoyances. (e.g. at tutorial, laziness is rewarded by giving you XP to level to exactly to 1000 and 3000 XP, so you may as well skip fights)
---
.... and 5.:
(and this can only be done beyond the scope of such a simple OC overhaul)
FIX THE DAMN AI!
After playing BG with SCS, NWN is a joke. I don't imagine ever revisiting it more than once ever again unless it gets better AI.
Now, this may not be easy. Personally, I am happy to pay $20 just for an AI-overhaul DLC. (This remains true today also for IWD:EE and PST:EE.) Come on, Beamdog...
The Original Campaign (which every new buyer will try first) sucks terribly!
The DLCs are excellent compared, but now I remember why I played the OC exactly once in my lifetime, though I played the DLCs (or NWN2) multiple times (or the BG series countless times):
The OC is clunky, badly balanced, unchallenging, so very... rectangular, and poorly written.
All but the last two are redeemable in a new EE rendition!
Now, I imagine that Beamdog is contractually obliged to leave the OC content untouched and is better off developing a new campaign....
... BUT ...
... what if Beamdog released an Original Campaign-plus at no-charge:
NOT a complete re-do of the OC (would take too many resources for too little return), but a minor tweak of the broken systems in the OC:
1. Fix the rest system (**TOP PRIORITY**).
This would render dungeon-delving to have consequences, rather than squatting to refill spellbook every other minute. Relatedly, remove or redo the Stone of Recall thing. (Even SoU replaces it with a more dignified version.)
2. Fix the clunky Henchmen (Already mods do this partially.)
3. Incorporate some merits of other DLC contents (Feats and skills added after the OC; maybe toss in mount or so.)
4. Fix the annoyances. (e.g. at tutorial, laziness is rewarded by giving you XP to level to exactly to 1000 and 3000 XP, so you may as well skip fights)
---
.... and 5.:
(and this can only be done beyond the scope of such a simple OC overhaul)
FIX THE DAMN AI!
After playing BG with SCS, NWN is a joke. I don't imagine ever revisiting it more than once ever again unless it gets better AI.
Now, this may not be easy. Personally, I am happy to pay $20 just for an AI-overhaul DLC. (This remains true today also for IWD:EE and PST:EE.) Come on, Beamdog...
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Comments
Personally, I wish theya allowed us the editing and datamining of premium modules. I didn't dislike the OC, but the PM were just great.
Don't re-work the whole module. Just fix some blatant issues. (e.g. rest system)
I also would have them rather do an original module.
After all they made so many votes just to add more stuff to the OC and made it very clear that reworking, adding more side quests and extending the OC is how to make NWN EE a success. It's the most voted on thing of all now.
What should Beamdog do?
In NWN, the poor wizard has to handle combat mostly by himself. He gets his familiar and a summons to help tank for him at lower levels, but they become increasingly ineffective as levels increase. He can take a fighter companion, but lose out on rogue functions. If he takes rogue levels himself, he gimps his spell progression. If he takes a rogue companion, he loses a fighter companion. If he takes the pixie familiar, he loses an effective combat familiar.
Frequent recharging of the spell book is the only way a wizard, and to some extent the other spellcasting classes, can keep going through the game.
Fighters, on the other hand, can go for as long as they have potions. A fighter could theoretically complete an entire game without resting a single time.
The NWN OC in many ways is more like Diablo than it is like BG.
Lots of mod-makers agree with the OP, and really have it in for casters. They restrict rest through their mod-settings. And a lot of them just flat out state in their mod notes that players are better off playing a melee class. I generally won't play mods like that.
@Savant1974 has mild rest restrictions in "The Saga of Aielund", (about every 4 game hours), but he compensates by making wands, staves, and even crossbows that cast Magic Missiles readily available throughout his campaign. He also gives casters the ability to cast buffs on both themselves and a familiar or animal companion with a single cast. He does take away 24 hour creature summoning, though.
What I am very much for is improved AI in the OC, because the companions are of very limited value in combat due to stupidity and horrible gear. Just being able to access their inventory and give them better gear would be a huge improvement.
thankfully i was a fighter/monk/weapon master so as soon as i found a ring of regeneration, i never rested again, but people who like playing spell casters, woof, that would be terrible
and i agree with @BelgarathMTH that NWN is more like diablo than BG
but i also agree with @Ygramul that NWN is clunky, especially at low levels, oi is it painful, but i think the main reason for that is because you don't have an actual party, and only having 1 attack per round really hurts
It seems like some of the stuff people want fixed could be accomplished by modders, enabled or disabled with a setting, etc. It's a matter of taste, of course, but to me saying rest takes too long, for example, is only short of saying "why have rest at all? Why can't everyone just insta-heal as soon as they take damage? In fact, why take damage?"
-JFK
For instance have the potential for wandering monsters , perhaps assigning watch and setting traps to allow for more potential safety- Must rest to scribe scrolls etc..etc...
This is one thing that always bugged me about nwn- Resting was just there to recharge spells and it could have been so much more- Even other classes should have to rest when afflicted by certain debuffs or if injured in specific ways.
That aside- nerfing rest would be detrimental to the wizard (especially at early levels) for reasons already explained. In multiplayer this would be negated by other toons to deal with trash mobs and such but in single player it would just be frustrating beyond belief... If its about 'difficulty' then nerf saving to disallow save scumming or autosaving every 10 steps.
edit- As far as the time it takes to rest I think its fine and wouldnt even mind it being longer- But I like a bit of downtime between major fights so thats a personal thing.
The default rest system is more action orientated whereas the original system isn't. There are very good reasons that a martial character has to rest in a d&d game but by default NWN leans heavily towards a light and easy mode design. None of that is really present in NWN by default. I don't think it's really a needed feature unless you're actually going to do something with it, like some mods and servers have had custom rest systems.
As @fardragon said,
Resting should take 8 hours lol
Sure, in D&D resting is resting: You can't sleep wearing plate mail, for Pete's sake. You gotta eat something or you'll tip over! You need expensive components for some of those spells, fella. HOW much are you carrying around with you?
So, yeah. Pretty easy restrictions compared to D&D, but that's okay too.
-JFK
Weren’t the old rules like a wizard needed their spell book. If lost or stolen they are basically powerless? Obviously this was never fully implemented in nwn.
I think the latest version of D&D they can cast but can’t learn or stuff. Wizards relying on a hallowed spell book for their power that they have to carry around would of made for some awesome RP shenanigans!
A wizard spell book is only needed to memorize spells. It is however not inherently magical so it can burn or be ruined. The wizard still knows the spells and can scribe a new one but requires it for memorization. Reading another wizard's spell book is difficult and requires study and various checks.
The main problem with spell books is that they're heavy but typically magic items don't count towards max weight when worn so you also have more carrying capacity.
A priest is also required to have a holy symbol for many spells.
Typically most problems are "solved" but not necessarily implemented.
As far as I know, 5e is the only edition that allows some casting (rituals) straight from the book.
They have a limited number of 'slots' to fill each time they memorize, based on level, Intelligence, and perhaps a few other things.
They can choose to scribe a memorized spell into a spellbook instead of casting it.
Anyway . . . .
-JFK
A wizard with no spells is a man with a knife and a pointy hat.
-JFK
(Explicit language)
TR
I think rest control is the singularly most important issue here.
After getting bored to hell with NWN1 OC, I am currently trying the NWN2 OC -- but with a mod that makes Storms of Zehir kind rest and death restrictions:
- you can only rest once per 8 hours (about half an hour of game time) and
- if you die (bleed out at -10 HP), you are dead! There are a handful of "coins" to restore you: they are finite in number and not cheap.
Basically, you must prepare with potions and healing kits for a dungeon romp and use your spells sparingly
The difference is like night and day.
*** Suddenly, NWN2 campaign is worth playing as a no-reload, i.e. it is worth playing at all! ***
This is the one simple fix that the OC in NWN1 needs to go from a for 4/10 chore to a respectable 7/10 experience. (On a scale where B2/TOB clock at a 9/10.)
TR