Suggestion: Release the Toolset's source code to the community
prwo
Member Posts: 69
I have a bold suggestion for Beamdog: Why not release the Aurora Toolset's source code to the community?
Make it public so that we can implement some of the many good suggestions that are posted all over this place ourseves.
I'm just talking about the Toolsethere: the frontend, the user interface, the compiler, etc. All that makes up the modding experience. Most of these things are straight forward and since all the file formats have already been released they bear no secret at all.
I'm not talking about any of the game engine, which is assumedly D&D licensed or something, or the graphics engine. Just the framework parts.
You could release that under some kind of development license that allows you to use any of the community provided extension back in your own bundles whenever you see fit.
Judging from the Trollo board I assume that currently there are like 2-3 devs working on the project. How much time can they spend on Toolset features, that probably will not immediately generate revenue streams for the project?
Think of it like this: If the toolset is better, more modders will produce content. More content means more gamers. And more gamers means more revenue in the long run.
(Again, if that has already been suggested somewhere, please excuse me. I haven't found it yet.)
Make it public so that we can implement some of the many good suggestions that are posted all over this place ourseves.
I'm just talking about the Toolsethere: the frontend, the user interface, the compiler, etc. All that makes up the modding experience. Most of these things are straight forward and since all the file formats have already been released they bear no secret at all.
I'm not talking about any of the game engine, which is assumedly D&D licensed or something, or the graphics engine. Just the framework parts.
You could release that under some kind of development license that allows you to use any of the community provided extension back in your own bundles whenever you see fit.
Judging from the Trollo board I assume that currently there are like 2-3 devs working on the project. How much time can they spend on Toolset features, that probably will not immediately generate revenue streams for the project?
Think of it like this: If the toolset is better, more modders will produce content. More content means more gamers. And more gamers means more revenue in the long run.
(Again, if that has already been suggested somewhere, please excuse me. I haven't found it yet.)
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Comments
Additionally, Beamdog is incorporated in Canada, which is a party to the Geneva Convention, and unleashing this on the populace could be considered a violation. Legal stuff.
But they could release a public plugin interface that exposes a lot more that would allow modders to hook into the toolset it's self.
Instead of using default Area editor (for example), you could swap that plugin out for a community made one.
And before that: how motivated are they to do so?
And the first one would be: who is they that need to be motivated? Who is we and who has replied?
Is there a thread to this in this forum already?
Forgive me, but I fail to see how that has to do with anything.
Just to clarify: I am not suggesting that they should donate it to public domain, or give it away freely. There are plenty of options to model a contract like this.
And by the way, BioWare has already been doing so by publishing all the game's content along with all necessary data structure documentation right from the start. Everyone could already build a complete and full featured own toolset just with that knowledge. Only that is a lot of redundant effort since a toolset is already existing.
I imagine it is a lot of work especially for one person but as far as source code goes I don't see the benefit in seeing how they made a toolset for this outdated C builder thing that Trent keeps talking about.
It'd have the advantage of taking off some of the load from BeamDog's shoulders, and it could be designed from the start to be multi-platform, unlike the bioware toolset. Also, it'd be easy to implement the new functionalities or new file formats added by BD, and even include the current NWN Explorer features inside this new community toolset
Any of the coding-savvy people up to the task?
And a year or more to get it somewhat to an stable state.
I mean you probably even could pull it off with just using Unity, but it would still take you a lot longer than just a few weeks.
Regardless of how great you all are at decades old coding you're not getting the source code and there's no information in the source code that you don't already have access to.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/924150/#Comment_924150
I could be wrong, but thought it worth mentioning, since the first reading changes the scene quite a bit to something that may never happen since it hasn't yet.
Let's stop discussing the finer points of what [u]can't be changed[/u] by the community. If the community really wanted to do something open source with the toolset then it seems they already have everything they need to make their own. If it was good Beamdog could use it as a replacement for the original, and help develop it further since it would be open source.
Otherwise I think it's fair to assume that most open source requests are mostly made out of curiosity rather than serious intent on modernizing and maintaining the toolset.
TR
- Most people, who are interesting in making their own content, especially newcomers, will use the Toolset and most modules will require nothing more than the Toolset to be released.
- Apparently there are plenty of suggestions in the Toolset thread here in this forum and elsewhere for improving the Toolset. So there is a need for improvement.
- Beamdog is not likely to spend time on these improvements, because other things are more prior to them than that.
- Without the source code of a program it is almost impossible to change anything with feasible time and energy. Therefor it suffice to say that having the source code is a mandatory precondition for any party doing the improvements mentined in 2.
- Making a new toolset from the scratch is much more effort than changing a few aspects of the existing one. If it was so easy or if it was so necessary, "making a new one" would have been done already.
Given 3 and 5, the biggest chance of getting the Toolset improvements done (2) lies within the community. And given 4, in order for the community or anyone to do so, they have to have the sorce code.The interesting question is: Are there enough people in the NWN community to do so?
Of what I have assembled from the various posts around here and elsewhere, the Toolset (and probably NWN as well) was made using Borland C++, which is, to my knowledge, freely available now and can also be ported to newer systems.
Of what I can see in the user Interface it uses basic Win32 API (maybe OWL).
That's not exactly rocket science.
So looking at what has been done already in the community's Tooling department (NWNx, NWNexplorer, ... not to mention my own tools), I am convinced there is enough development power to handle this task.
Most changes I've read about (that concern the Toolset only and not part of the game mechanics), and most issues I've had with the Toolset myself are in the user interface.
I think, having the source code and time to work on it, they are simple to implement. Without having the source code it's practically impossible (or at least not feasible) to do so.
I'll try to follow up on it.
In many cases yes you would be better off starting from scratch.
The script editor, script compile and dialog editor would be my first target for replacement - and replacements already exist. But to be honest, the area and placeable editors are quite alright, so I see little reason to fiddle with them.
Regardless almost three weeks have passed since the first post without any progress made.
- To my knowledge no one has remade the toolset "from the scratch" in the last 15 years, so I think it is safe to assume that it won't happen any time soon.
- Without the source code of the toolset, modifications to the existing one are nearly impossible.
- So, consequently, with the source code at least there is a chance.
I've remastered code of the 90s before and in my experience it is no rocket sience at all, but only a matter of development time spent on the topic. And that time could be multiplied by releasing the toolset to the community.Nevertheless, @TrentOster, reconfirmed that Beamdog is legally restricted from releasing any source code and that their contract is not open for negotiation. So, Beamdog's hands are tied in this matter.
The actual authority to realease the Toolset source code to anyone would therefor lie with the original owner BioWare or EA Games.
Whether someone makes a toolset or not isn't an indicator of it being possible or not, nor of the complexity involved versus potentially doing minutia work under a pile of spaghetti, and assuming you can replace things modularly, and that it's compatible with modern gui functionality...
Though now at least you realize as others in the thread did that you can't get access to the source code.
But maybe I was too impatient with my original assumption - namely that Beamdog won't be able to spend too much time on improving the Toolset. Yesterdays Patch 8164 lists some very interesting and long needed improvements in the new Toolset, which I am keen to explore.
The message of the statement was that Beamdog is not at liberty to release the Toolset's source code. So the original question was addressed to the wrong people.
But I agree, that it is unlikely that BioWare will react to it.