Attn: Wizard Slayer haters
orosius
Member Posts: 45
I love my wizard slayer. I played him from level 1 in bg1tutu all the way to finishing bg2 and expansion. He comeptely mopped the floors with his grandmastery in long swords and dual wielding. He was consistenly the highest dps in my party and I had no problems not using magic items.
If anyone can not make wizard slayer work well I question their understanding of DnD mechanics and if they have actually even tried one themselves. To call them the worst or weakest kit is unjust!
If anyone can not make wizard slayer work well I question their understanding of DnD mechanics and if they have actually even tried one themselves. To call them the worst or weakest kit is unjust!
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Comments
There's still hope though, other kits may be worse.
In BG1 his weaknesses are trivial. BG1 is a low magic campaign, so he loses... what? +1 AC and saves from a Ring of Protection? There are no Rings of Gaax in BG1. Someone already mentioned that they could use the Boots of Speed (confirmed) and they can also use magical helms. They can use healing potions. The big no's are non-healing potions, most rings/amulets, bracers, cloaks and belts. Now I would agree that it would tragic if fighters could use wands and the Wizard Slayer alone was prevented from using them, but among these types the only item that stands out is the Cloak of Balduran. And the Greenstone Amulet, technically, except it's MIA for a sizeable chunk of the game.
It's baffling how people think so poorly of the Wizard Slayer that they would even compare it to a low level monk. Seriously.
You can beat the game with any class, and have fun doing so. By the same token, apart from any emotional investments one might have in a class or kit, if you look at the advantages that other classes and kits have by comparison WS is not going to rate very high.
I'm about finding challenges and creative approaches, not just barreling through the game with uber characters. I also tend to root for the underdog. So for what it's worth I support you in showing some love to an upopular kit.
@Nuin - I'd have to disagree about the number of useful magic items in BG1. Granted, you are definitely more penalized in the second game but not being able to make use of the Guantlets of Weapon Expertise, Cloak/Ring of Protection +2 (works great when combined with Full Plate), Ring of Free Action, Any of the AC increasing Girdles, or the Boots of Avoidance/Grounding is a pretty big deal in the long run. When you compare the Wizard Slayer to say, a Berserker who can use all those items and has a non-situational bonus (lets face it, if you aren't fighting spellcasters the wizard slayer is a gimped fighter) you can really see the weakness of the Wizard Slayer. While it's not a totally crippled class, in that you can beat the games with it, it is clearly amongst the kits on the bottom rung.
and from a game mechanics standpoint would thrown axes be treated any differently than bows? Sorry I've never played the class and I'm just curious based on what I've read online concerning their use of bows/crossbows if there is a way to get around some of the classes abilities limitations outside of the tweakpack.
Not if they're Mirror Imaged. As far as I can see, the mages thus far shown in the trailers love to use the spell.
@Goodsteve
No he doesn't. You might wanna read my other post better, the only thing that protects against the Wizard Slayer's debuff is outright weapon immunity.
So you mean that the Wizard Slayer can't use Full Plate? Because he can. And so he loses 2 AC. And a few more from belts. While Monks and Kensais, who can't use any armor at all, are apparently significantly more viable.
About the other items, there's a sword with free action that you get earlier than the ring, so moot point, and I thought we already established that Wizard Slayers could use boots, or the Boots of Speed in particular.
If Wizard Slayer could use all the items a regular fighter could then a regular fighter becomes useless, it would be wizard slayer as the base class essentially and one of the other two kits if you wanted to try something different.
If you where planning to munchkin a rogue dual class from a fighter, then just like the kensai benefits from the use any item hla so does the wizard slayer, in this scenario both are better then a regular fighter.
There's a reason why any class/kit that can equip a decent ranged weapon by default becomes more viable than others in BG1.
I never said the Wizard Slayer can't use full plate, I said that a ring/cloak of protection +2 works well with full plate. It basically gives you +2 Full Plate with a bonus to saving throws to boot. With the right belt equipped with the above combo he will lose from 5-6 AC, actually. Nothing to scoff at. He will also miss out on a constant +1 THAC0 and +2 damage from the Guantlets of Weapon Expertise, one of the best items in the game for a melee character. And yes, the monk and kensai are definitely more viable in the long run.
Yeah there is a sword with free action in the game, but it's a two-handed sword. So if you want to use a sword and shield, or two-weapon fighting or ranged attacks you can't get the free action bonus... if only there was some way around this predicament... oh wait there is! The ring of free action, that the wizard slayer can't use :P
You also never said that the Wizard Slayer can use all boots, you said: "Someone already mentioned that they could use the Boots of Speed (confirmed) and they can also use magical helms."
That doesn't mean they can use all magical boots in the same way that saying the druid can wear the ankheg plate mail doesn't mean the druid can wear all forms of plate mail.
You have to analyze more carefully what little items are available to you and what kind of buffs you can get up and running. For the rest, a Wizard Slayer is a very great and competent class, I love it.
But to address your relevant concerns, the bonus from the belt is situational, especially when it comes to the belt with blunt damage bonus. Unless you constantly switch belts in the middle of combat then that AC bonus is also situational. Both the ring and cloak are also available mid-late game, so there's that. So are the gauntlets. They're not exactly there when you're at most vulnerable and you've got wolves chasing your level 2-3 casters. Let's compare that to the Kensai. Automatic 7 point penalty to AC for not being able to use Full Plate Armor, though -2 for AC bonus at character creation, for a total of 5 points non-situational AC drop. That rises to 7 if you use the Anhkeg Plate hidden in the farm in Beregost. A shield in Nashkel can be stolen for +2 bonus to AC and +1 bonus to missile AC. The number has now rusen to a truly significant 9 point difference in AC, +1 situational bonus to AC.
Note that all of these items are available very early on in the game, when you need them most.
So what makes the Kensai so much more viable in the Wizard Slayer by this point? Kai? The +1 damage/+1 THAC0 bonus? I do not dispute how godly the Kensai is in BG2, but do you honestly, seriously believe that +1 damage/+1 THAC0/1 Kai is worth more than a 9 point difference in non-situational AC? Or even 7, if the Wizard Slayer loses the shield. And look, we haven't even gotten to the pros of the Wizard Slayer kit yet.
As for "long term", therein lies the difference between BG1 and BG2 (treating SoA and ToB as different games, because the developers made it painfully clear with the character Illasera how the start of ToB was designed to be easier than the last part). The hardest part of BG1 is the beginning/middle part of the game. Late game is simply knowing how to use your character. To judge any class/kit in BG1 solely based on their late game merits is outright wrong, and is equivalent to saying that your BG2 character is godly because you barbecued every goblin/kobold group in Irenicus dungeon and web/cloudkilled spammed yourself through every early-mid game encounter in SoA.
In BG1 the very first area you visit after Candlekeep has creatures like wolves and bears. These things can kill you in 1 hit. The equivalent is like having to face a fighter with HLAs in Irenicus Dungeon.
As for the two-handed sword, there's weapon switching (yeah its pretty basic), assuming the Wizard Slayer didn't actually go two-handed weapons in the first place because the reach does help.
A sword to the face.
This is essentially the problem.
Detect Illusion + the cumulative spell failure works wonder. iirc, in ToB once I got UAI his only disadvantage disappeared.
I just wished he got more than a measly 1% magic resistance every level.
IMO jester is the bottom of the barrel because confusion can be annoying.
I never said that the Kensai or Monk were better choices than the Wizard Slayer in the early game or even in the first game. Not sure why you're trying to prove me wrong about something I never said, so I guess I'll skip to the "relevant concerns."
I'm not so sure that wolves and gibberlings are harder than Durlag's Tower and Aec'letec. Most people don't remember the epic battle with the 4 Xvarts as opposed to fighting Sarevok, at least in my experience. When I say that the Kensai and Monk are better choices than the Wizard Slayer it is because for the majority of the Saga they are head and shoulders more powerful than the Wizard Slayer. Sure in the first 25% (that's generous I think) of the Baldur's Gate Saga Wizard Slayers may be better than those classes, but in the long run the WS is outshone. The Wizard Slayer is arguably the only kit that is weaker than the base class for a great deal of the battles in all 3 games. A Wizard Slayer recieves ZERO bonuses if you are not fighting a spellcaster but magic items are always present from wolf #1, to Davaeorn, to Aec'letec, to Sarevok.
Both durlags tower and Aec letec were easy as eating pie for my swashbuckler / mage too.
I agree, "hate" is perhaps a bit of a strong emotion to have towards a class, but everything the Wizard Slayer can do, other classes can do just as well, with less downsides. So it's not that it's bad, more that it is redundant.
Which is fine. Loads of classes are redundant in some ways. Bards are almost entirely redundant, barring their Song, for example. Doesn't mean I won't play them, but there is no need to build up the Wizard Slayer as this all round awesome character class because, well, it isn't really.
But jokes apart, WS is a bad kit in terms of coherence. I'm not sure as i don't have the player handbook, but the limitations made for the wizard slayer feels a lot artificial, they're a class made to pursue mages, what doesn't mean they hate magic (yes, some WS can hate magic but that's not a rule for all of them).
There was another topic that discussed this issue. The problem with Baldur's Gate is that every item that isn't normal is coded as magic, and unlike on infinite engine, on Pen and Paper exist a difference between a divine item, a clerical magic item or a arcane magic item also (anyone correct me if i'm wrong) and while a WS can fight well any magic user, they're focused against arcane magic normally (nothing stop them of hate divine magic users, bala's axe description is a good example if i'm not wrong).
The feeling of empity slots in the late game, where you can only use an armor and a sword in terms of magic item upset a bit the person playing, at least i felt that way when i finished a ToB game with a WS that i carried from the BG candlekeep begin.
If i learn to code well to develop modes one day, my first work will be rewrite the entire wizard slayer kit.
If you like the Wizard Slayer kit that much, the "Kindred NPC mod" for BG II is something that you MUST play, serious.
The list goes on and on and on. The only advantage the wizard slayer gets is when killing mages, and that advantage is meaningless because any other fighter type or mage class can also easilly kill mages.
This is also the same for the Inquisitor kit, but only true in BG1.
The spell interruption is fairly nice, since it goes through everything other than mantle, I think. It is funny, at least, watching Irenicus completely unable to cast spells since you hit him 10 times, even if it did no damage. The magic resist is minor, but it does come up occasionally. Moreso at higher levels, when you start getting 5%/level, but still, it's helped out a few times.
Why is this a big deal?