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The full control of AI party summons, henchman, companions, and familiars card discussion

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,858
https://trello.com/c/lmXsvl13/158-allow-full-control-of-ai-party-summons-henchman-companions-and-familiars

We are planning on doing this but would like to know more about the specific features the NWN community would like to see.

Please, provide your feedback in this thread.

grom56Prince_RaymondEriomirSener
«1

Comments

  • DonCzirrDonCzirr Member Posts: 117
    Wow - that's great news.

    This will trigger my purchase at full price once implemented.

    Thanks BeamDog team.

    helmo1977
  • DerpCityDerpCity Member, Moderator Posts: 280
    edited July 2018
    EDIT: According to the most recent Livestream recap, it appears I might have misinterpreted this a bit. Parts of my post are still relevant, so I'm going to spoiler my previous version of this post so it takes up less space and restate relevant parts.

    Considering that the Livestream Recap states specifically "We want to make henchmen more responsible, which will let you continue being the character you play," then an improved AI and path finding is basically a must, which would likely fall under reworking the general AI. Henchmen should be able to identify weaknesses in the enemies; instead of wasting firebrand on Fire Elementals, they should be using cone of cold, or do the same with weapons. Path finding should be improved for all monsters, and that weird teleport thing the henchmen and summons do while walking should be reserved for when they're actually stuck on something, which is ironically the time they never teleport to you.

    Honestly, I still think the ability to guide our campaign companion's builds and spells, outside of telling them what class to go, through levelup and spell views for each henchman would be an excellent addition to the game, regardless of if we can control them or not. Obviously we can't completely restat them unless we mod the campaigns ourselves, but if our companions have crappy feat and spell selection with their default packages it'd be nice if we could choose them ourselves for future playthroughs, especially if they're the only usable rogue or something.


    This is a giant post and probably came out as a big ramble, so I apologize in advance for being rather long winded.

    Honestly, while my opinion of FPC is tainted by NWN2, I don't see any harm in adding it. I still say I'd rather see other features in the game before it, but as we can already see from @DonCzirr's comment above it'll widen NWNEE's audience, and I believe it would open up many module making opportunities. I would also like to say that many of my gripes with the idea of FPC are caused by NWN2's bugginess and it's AI issues; characters easily get stuck on pieces of geometry that they shouldn't have been able to walk into, some get stuck on geometry that they can literally walk around if you possess them and click on the ground past it, making stupid decisions midcombat like to change their target to someone on the other side of where they're standing and end up getting swung at by 50 attacks of opportunity, the fighter tries to flank his enemies rather than stay still causing him to similarly cause attacks of opportunity. This all leads to FPC being a frustrating requirement than a helpful tool. If the AI gets updated in the future or alongside this, then I would appreciate it if the AI was competent enough that I would only have to possess them occasionally. Also, some players would like to have a Puppet Mode similar to NWN2 where the henchmen only do what you tell them to do, so that would be a nice feature to accompany this feature even if I wouldn't make much use of it.

    Next, I'd like to state that I'd like this to be something that the Module Maker or a player have to enable rather than defaulting to on, such as through a bunch of variables to change on the OnModuleLoad script that default to being off or are commented out. Previous modules were definitely not designed with FPC as even a possibility, so if players want to use the feature in older modules it should be up to the module maker or a player to update the module with the variables and accept the consequences of a module that wasn't made with it in mind, because otherwise it might create balance issues and bugs. Having it be an activateable feature rather than just default game mechanics is probably how it's intended to be implemented already, but it's never bad to make sure IMO. I don't think it would hurt anyone if it defaulted to being on in the campaigns if the proper steps to make sure it works well were taken.

    I agree with @jonesr65 that if we're getting FPC it should also be accompanied by the ability to level up our henchmen for them, even if you aren't using FPC, so that we can guide their feat and skill progression on top of their spells learned and spells set, just like in NWN2. Clicking recommended would obviously default to whatever custom package they have set. Considering Beamdog has the "update the OC up to current patch levels" card, the Henchmen are likely going to work like they did in either Shadows of Undrentide or Hordes of the Underdark, which means they will level up using packages and will have inventory access.

    For Controlling Animal Companions and Familiars: Familiars can already be controlled via Possession, but IIRC they are "bugged" in that kills made while possessing your familiar remove all experience from the kill entirely. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not, but it makes it very unappealing to use it to make your possession ability outside of just giving yourself your Faerie Dragon's Improved Invisibility. Not only would this feature make possessing your familiar take less steps (if it works like NWN2, you would be able to possess them just by clicking on their portrait), but if the experience loss while in possession mode was addressed it would obviously make possessing the familiar more appealing. However, I'm unsure about Animal Companions; I think a small part of the distinction between Animal Companions and Familiars is that you can't possess them, only generally order them around, and it provides a little bit of insight into the type of relationship that the two pets have; one is magically bound to you (familiars), and one is more like having a hunting dog (animal companions). This definitely should be one of the variables I mentioned in my second paragraph, or maybe even a player switch in the NWPlayer.ini.

    Those are my thoughts on the manner, and that covers everything I can think of right now.

    Post edited by DerpCity on
    tfoxJuliusBorisov
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    I'd be pretty happy if they'd stick to just one target instead of constantly changing targets and taking attacks of opportunity from every enemy. I'd be even happier if there were a voice command to "Attack My Target" instead of "Attack Nearest". Better pathfinding would be nice.

    Full party control would be wonderful, but if that opens up too big a can of worms, improvements to AI as described above would go a long way towards creating a better player experience.

    DerpCityPrince_RaymondJuliusBorisovNostariel
  • ProlericProleric Member Posts: 494
    Top requirement IMO is an option to focus all attacks on one opponent until that order is cancelled.

    Preferably with an option to micromanage combat actions and level up.

    BG pretty much nailed this IIRC.

    The ability to command associates to use placeables (which I have in my modules) opens many possibilties for solving puzzles through teamwork or superior skills. For example, companions should be able to use thieves tools. For balance, henchfolk ought to ask before using valuable resources, refuse to handle trapped containers, and so on.

    The ability to preset combat tactics rather than micromanage might be interesting but could be over-complicated.

    BelgarathMTHNeverwinterWightsJuliusBorisov
  • ShadowMShadowM Member Posts: 432
    edited July 2018
    I would love to get leveling control so I do not have to create multiple package sets for variations on henchmen leveling. If I correct in assuming we are getting direct control so we can have x wizard henchmen cast a fireball when we want and where instead of the AI doing it, that be great. As to scripted version I have a control system in place in my base module to have henchmen interact with placable/ get items and attack who you command them to attack, but to have total control would even be better. I make boss monsters with special attack/abilities that need henchmen/pc to do specific things to survive and beat as I'm sure others have and no amount of AI can counter custom abilities/spells, AI or would make more work to script into the henchmen etc.. I would love it if we got OnCreatureDying so we can have henchmen bleed like pc. If it blank then just does the standard system. I would also love if BD put in a sample Henchmen with all the script sets and a standard conversation set with all the options that would allow module builder to just add in the details and save out.

    Post edited by ShadowM on
    JuliusBorisov
  • MalclaveMalclave Member Posts: 47
    I'm not personally interested in Full Party Control, but it should be an option for those who are.

    More generally...
    GoTo command so my fighter henchman will block a door or my rogue henchman will search ahead for traps, etc
    Inventory control
    Heal Yourself command including potions and kits
    Heal Me command to have henchmen use kits if they have them
    Spell control... what to prepare, when to cast (esp outside of combat), and learning from scrolls I give my wizard henchman
    Control of the levelling up process

    flauros
  • VerilazicVerilazic Member Posts: 20
    It sounds like one of the key functions here that would be a huge difference-maker is the ability to identify/set/transmit targets?

    rogueknight333BelgarathMTH
  • rogueknight333rogueknight333 Member Posts: 10
    If I understand correctly from statements made elsewhere, there are not actually any plans to implement genuine full party control (i.e., providing the same kind and degree of control over NPC companions as one has for the player character, the Infinity Engine games being the paradigmatic example), but instead simply to make relative improvements to the existing imperfect controls? If so, then the thread/card titles are inaccurate. If not, and if true FPC is envisaged, it is not clear what the point in asking for suggested features to it would be, as one either has full control or one does not.

    To be clear, I am not in the least complaining about not trying to implement FPC, as I doubt very much that would be practical and in any case, even if it were successfully done, it would transform NWN into a completely different kind of game, creating all sorts of backwards compatibility issues. It simply seems confusing to label this a discussion about FPC if it is actually about something different.

    At any rate, if something more modest is envisaged, the obvious way to go about it would be to expand the existing radial commands to include a few more options, and include options that can target other objects. One could, e.g., have a command to attack a selected target (and do nothing but attack that particular target until it dies or other orders are issued), a command to move to a selected point (and do nothing but try to move there, not stopping to attack, etc., no matter what happens) and perhaps a few others. Basically similar to what is done by Balkoth's Minion Control, but with the ability to give separate commands to different companions rather that ordering all of them as a group. One might even include a "User-defined" radial command for which module builders could write their own script to determine what it would do.

    I would have to second DerpCity's suggestion that whatever improvements be made here be something that is not enabled by default, but turned on by the module builder setting a variable or something, as altered functionality here could radically alter the way existing modules work. Better tactical control would obviously greatly affect combat balance, and there could well be other issues. E.g., if Proleric's suggestion of allowing associates to use placeables (a good feature in the abstract, of course) were implemented, I could see it causing lots of bugs in older modules, many of which probably have placeable OnUsed scripts which were written on the assumption that any object returned by GetLastUsedBy() would only be a PC.

    DerpCitytfoxJuliusBorisovNostariel
  • AnonySimonAnonySimon Member Posts: 26
    What I would like to do is have the following control options:

    Leveling up: I want to be able to choose what classes feats, skills, and spells my henchmen choose upon leveling up.
    Spell Preparation: For non-spontaneous casters, I want to be be able to select what spells they prepare and how many of each.
    Inventory and Equipment: I want to be able to give and take items from animal companions, familiars, and henchmen. I would like to be able to equip armor and weapons to said allies aswell (provided they are proficient with such). I would like to have wizard henchmen learn spells from spell scrolls in their inventory.
    Improved AI: I would like to see AI options like there were in Ice Wind Dale II.
    Auto-Pickup: I would like it if you could tell your animal companions, familiars, and henchmen to "pick up" everything in the area (perhaps even with a toggle for determining when a companion refuses to pick something up such as when doing so would make them encumbered or heavily encumbered).

    Nostariel
  • flaurosflauros Member Posts: 2
    Hi I am new here and would like to give some additional feedback for the possibility of manual controlled party members:

    I agree with AnonySimon with the addition that it should be possible to have manual control over targeting with spells, attacks, special abilities and move directions with henchmen, summons, familiars and animal companions.

    Maybe it is possible for the developers to extend the radial menu for the other party members to a similar degree of the main pc. Or as an alternative make it possible to switch to each member like you can do in KotoR.

  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    Unless you have an AI that can send your rogue to scout ahead, or prevent a fighter from charging until your wizard has thrown that fireball...

    Or any number of things that aren’t easily scripted, then by default you dumb down the complexity of single player modules so that any class can handle any situation. Or you have to play a certain class to complete the module.

    I think full party control is necessary for the long term health of the game. And by that I mean broadening it’s base to include more than the niche crowd who has kept it going for so long.

    BelgarathMTHPL1NostarielEriomirSener
  • ShadowMShadowM Member Posts: 432
    edited March 4

    Unless you have an AI that can send your rogue to scout ahead, or prevent a fighter from charging until your wizard has thrown that fireball...

    Or any number of things that aren’t easily scripted, then by default you dumb down the complexity of single player modules so that any class can handle any situation. Or you have to play a certain class to complete the module.

    I think full party control is necessary for the long term health of the game. And by that I mean broadening it’s base to include more than the niche crowd who has kept it going for so long.

    We can, but full party control would be better.


    Post edited by ShadowM on
    EriomirSener
  • Prince_RaymondPrince_Raymond Member Posts: 270
    edited September 2018
    One suggestion would be to expand the Quickchat ("V" Key) commands so that more of them apply to the henchmen currently in your service. "Go stealthy" and "Search for secrets" are a couple I can think of right off the top of my head that could use an "*" next to them.

    Another would be to improve the AI and re-implement the voicesets of those henchmen skilled in the detection and disarming of traps, who warn you when you are near a trapped area. I remember playing through the Wailing Death campaign during the time before the first expansion was released. Tomi was spot on with both flagging traps and verbally warning my character of their impending danger with his British, "Hold up, there!", before immediately taking the initiative to disarm them. Of course, that was before his original portrait got changed to a different one in a later patch. Good times. Thank you for reading, and happy gaming to all.

    Post edited by Prince_Raymond on
    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 360
    edited July 2018
    I would say total control "ala NWN 2" would be the best choice. If that is not in the plan then Letting us to move our henchmen around, how and who to attack and ability to get into their inventories would be second best. Leveling up AI can do the rest (IF it is tweaked, because some of its choices are bad ones)

    BelgarathMTHEriomirSener
  • HunterRayder93HunterRayder93 Member Posts: 265
    helmo1977 said:

    I would say total control "ala NWN 2" would be the best choice. If that is not in the plan then Letting us to move our henchmen around, how and who to attack and ability to get into their inventories would be second best. Leveling up AI can do the rest (IF it is tweaked, because some of its choices are bad ones)

    from what I understand their intention and to make a system similar to KoTOR rather than close to NWN2 by reading the news on the main BD website.

    But here's what I think of it:

    Inventory control:Give us full control of inventories in this way so we can best equip our followers to make them more efficient in battle, this means we can also give them items to keep or keep in such a way that we can use them as "mules" in part ni cases where we do not have inventory space.

    Control of the leveling path of the followers:As many have previously said, full control of the level path of the followers would be useful indeed, if you think about it this happens even in NWN2 when a follower goes up in level we can decide which feat to take him etc ... yes ... in NWN2 in some cases the level up was limited and you could not choose outside the pase class of the character, but this could be expanded in NWNEE giving us the chance to custom our allies and in turn then to build a group strategy for the game .

    IA of followers:One of the things I've never loved about NWN is a rough and sad system of dialogue to set the AI through text ... I know it's a game of 2002 but that does not mean it can not be changed, quite frankly, an AI system as in NWN2 it would be more appreciated, through character shit a special section where to set the group AI, from the types of attacks if close or at a distance etc.

    This system present in NWN2 has evolved then in the tepo through the series Dragonage in my opinion, in Dragonage: Origins I think it has found the most functional AI system that I have ever found in an RPG. in fact ... it would not be a bad AI system similar to that, in this way not only can you give commands to the followers, but you can create a real set of attacks for every single present in the party.

  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire has one of the best customizable AI systems to date, at least as far as I can tell. Feel free to correct me with a better example.

    In that game you can set all kind of tactics based on conditionals. It’s really extensive.

    That being said, it still necessarily offers FPC because scenarios you may need to adapt to on the fly in an unexpected way not covered by the AI. It is a different kind of game. More tactical in many ways, but I don’t see why NWN can be it’s equal in that respect outside of design choice.

    Going back to my earlier example of a rogue scouting ahead, suppose they are around the corner from the rest of the party. Disable the trap? Kill the lookout? Sneak past the lookout and see what they are guarding? I’d argue you cannot effectively utilize your rouge henchman without dumbing down the scenario or playing one yourself.

    And I’m sure more examples can be made for other classes.

    It comes down to whether or not you want this game to be a challenge in single play mode.

    PL1
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    Modders should have full control over the full control system.

    I've noted before that there are some instances where it would make sense and open up new options to allow a PC to possess another body. However you wouldn't want to have them gain full control over all associates, not all associates are equally intelligent, trained, and compliant. In D&D it's possible to train an animal to flank an opponent in order to receive the flanking bonus, which is a good idea for a system modders can make. It would be pointless if a player can just do it themselves by moving the animal around like a robot.

    On the other hand a modder should be able to create a tactical experience with multiple units similar to games like King's Bounty, Heroes of Might and Magic, Banner Saga, Final Fantasy Tactics, and so on.

    JuliusBorisov
  • rogueknight333rogueknight333 Member Posts: 10

    ...It comes down to whether or not you want this game to be a challenge in single play mode.

    While I sympathize with calls for FPC, as I generally myself prefer tactically oriented games that include that feature (my doubts about FPC in NWN concern the practicality of retroactively adding such a feature to a game that was never designed to work with it), and I agree that a more customizable AI is a promising avenue to explore if one wants better party control than NWN currently allows, I have to take exception to the implication that single player NWN modules cannot be challenging or require thoughtful tactics. The kinds of tactical options at a player's disposal are certainly going to be different in a game where one controls a single character than a whole party, but tactics can still play a role. Indeed, theoretically, a single character with a sufficiently large number of spells, special powers and abilities, usable items, etc., might actually have more tactical options at his disposal than a party in which each character has only a strictly limited number of options (not saying this is necessarily actually true in NWN of course - depends what you are comparing it to).

    If you do not believe that very challenging tactical combat is possible in SP NWN than I suggest you try playing Sapphire Star, or the Blackguard trilogy or Siege of the Heavens or my own Swordflight modules. In the latter case, I can vouch that they are routinely criticized for being far too challenging, and indeed would probably be far more popular if they were less so. The fact that their initial reception on the old vault consisted of pages and pages of people complaining that Ch. 1 was impossibly hard did not help their download count. I know myself, however, having play-tested them more times than I can count, that with decent tactics it is quite possible to get through them. Naturally none of this would make any sense if SP challenge were impossible or tactics irrelevant.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 938
    @rogueknight333
    There is a notable difference between combat being challenging because you pit your team's abilities & skills against that of the enemy, and fighting against both the enemy and the "artificial stupidity" of your companions.

    This is showcased quite well by Swordflight, where you are at times forced to take a spellcasting companion along. In my playthrough I could make tactical decisions for my own character, but these would be straight out sabotaged by the nonexistent npc ai. And while I had great fun with your module, because of this it has nowhere near the replayability of Sword Coast Stratagems modded BG1 for me. It simply got too frustrating in the long run. (which is a pity, because the second part reminded me a lot of BG)

    BelgarathMTHPL1
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    I’ve had far more difficulty playing NWN due to companion stupidity than I have because of the tactical design of any of the battles.

    Not that tactical design needs to be the focus of every module. But it should be an option.

    I quite agree with chimaera that sword coast stratagems- or ever vanilla BG really- offers far more replay value than anything NWN has to offer, or at this point is capable of offering in a single player experience. Multi player is s different can of worms and where NWN shines.

    In previous discussions it was brought up that maybe there should be an option for module creators to enable FPC or not.

    BelgarathMTHPL1Nostariel
  • rogueknight333rogueknight333 Member Posts: 10
    chimaera said:


    There is a notable difference between combat being challenging because you pit your team's abilities & skills against that of the enemy, and fighting against both the enemy and the "artificial stupidity" of your companions.

    This is showcased quite well by Swordflight, where you are at times forced to take a spellcasting companion along. In my playthrough I could make tactical decisions for my own character, but these would be straight out sabotaged by the nonexistent npc ai...

    Psychologically there certainly is a difference. I think any other differences would be easy to overstate. Most of the things the henchman AI's stupidity might do to you, force you to expend healing resources, otherwise use up or waste resources, dispel helpful effects, draw unwanted aggro, or what have you, is something I could have arranged for an enemy or environmental circumstances to do instead if I really wanted. And if you know the AI is likely to sabotage certain plans, that is one tactical consideration to take into account when making plans.

    It is of course true that different game systems call for different tactical methods, and given the differences it is perfectly reasonable that one might prefer one system over another. If I had access to a toolset for Infinity Engine-style games that was as quick and easy to use as NWN's I would probably have greatly preferred that myself. I do though think that NWN gets something of a bad rap by always being compared (for obvious historical reasons) to the IE games which I certainly do not deny are superior from a pure tactical viewpoint. If instead one compares it to something like an Elder Scrolls game or the countless other RPGs out there that also lack FPC I think NWN's tactics come out looking quite good by comparison.
    chimaera said:


    ...And while I had great fun with your module, because of this it has nowhere near the replayability of Sword Coast Stratagems modded BG1 for me. It simply got too frustrating in the long run. (which is a pity, because the second part reminded me a lot of BG)

    I do not think it is much of a criticism of my modules to say that they do not quite measure up to what is arguably the greatest RPG of all time. Actually, I think I should thank you for the compliment.

    I’ve had far more difficulty playing NWN due to companion stupidity than I have because of the tactical design of any of the battles...

    If we were talking about the official campaigns, and for that matter a good percentage of the community-made modules, I would say the same thing myself. However, that is because the makers of these modules either did not want them to be very challenging or did not understand the game mechanics well enough to make them so, not because making challenging tactical scenarios is impossible in NWN.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 938
    @rogueknight333
    Of course you can take the erratic ai behaviour into consideration (and have to, considering you at some points enforce the use of said henchman in Swordflight), but that's like the dm saying you need to take into consideration your fellow player flying into random rages during a game.

    That is why I made the comparison to BG1 modded with SCS, and not BG1 alone. SCS greatly increases replayability, because it makes combat difficult by increasing the enemy capability, and not by deliberatly sabotaging the player. I've had henchmen refuse to attack anything in NWN and I disagree it is like having a henchman taken out by an enemy spell in SCS.

    BelgarathMTHPL1
  • cherryzerocherryzero Member Posts: 129
    I don’t agree that having to factor terrible henchmen AI into your plans equates in any way to tactical gameplay.

    It’s just not very well designed gameplay. And I’m not blaming modders. They don’t have anything to work with either.

    BelgarathMTHPL1NostarielEriomirSener
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 711
    Even with FPC that alone wouldn't make it a tactically rich experience. NWN lacks a lot of the timing and positional mechanics needed, which is tricky to work around with modding.

    For example D&D stealth rules actually work a lot more like a tactical stealth game like Metal Gear but NWN has no concept of directional vision, concealment or cover. So a modder has to make their own elaborate vision/stealth system before it can be a tactically rewarding experience. Add FPC and you still need to make that custom system yourself.

    Prince_Raymond
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 697
    To me what I would like only deals with henchies with rogue abilities. All I want is the ability to click on a door or trap and then click the henchy. This in order to avoid waiting forever for the henchy to realise there's a lock to be picked or a trap to be disarmed.

    TR

    Prince_Raymond
  • GrymlordeGrymlorde Member Posts: 93
    The biggest improvements would help both associates and monsters -- better pathfinding and smarter behavior. Just as others have mentioned, having all creatures avoid attacks of opportunity, avoid traps, intelligently switch from ranged to melee attacks, etc. These two areas alone would go a long, long way to improving the NWN experience! Take a look at TonyK's HenchAI (which improved the AI of all creatures) and make it better. Lots of opportunity for improvement.

    For associates, I'd like to see some personality/alignment-based AI. Baldur's Gate & BG II had a rudimentary selection of AI personalities to choose from. We could have something similar. For example a "cautious" personality could always ask the PC for permission to attack whereas an "impulsive or aggressive" personality would attack all hostiles on sight. Likewise a "compassionate/selfless" personality would buff fellow party members and heal them whereas a "selfish" one would keep all their spells and healing to themselves. These could be done easily within the existing AI framework. Between the BioWare AI and community improvements, we've already seen attack on sight, wait for the order, compassionate, and cowardice flags with some limited success. Again, this is a good base to work from and improve.

    My plea is to avoid the Icewind Dale solution of turning associates into robots. As pointed out above, the existing codebase will allow for various personality/alignment AI tweaks. Please don't throw that away in order to grant full party control. I want chaotic henchmen to disobey orders and Lawful ones to obey them to the letter. I want evil associates to hoard their spells and healing for themselves and good ones be compassionate, even it it means disobeying orders. If a player only wants associates to be obedient and selfless then they should only pick Lawful/Neutral or Lawful/Good associates.

    But first and foremost, please fix the pathfinding and combat AI for ALL creatures, associates and monsters.

    DerpCityPrince_Raymond
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