[Request/Idea] Level Cap Alternative
HeroicSpur
Member Posts: 907
Hey everyone,
One of the fundamental problems which I feel already exists in BG1, but which will be even more noticeable in BG:EE is the level caps.
Trent has already indicated the level cap will be raised a bit (probably 1 or 2 levels), but that will still probably result in players hitting the level cap relatively early if they are thorough.
As a point of principle I hate level-caps. I think they are completely artifical device, and I always find myself using a level-cap remover. The reason for that is one of the core reasons for playing BG/doing quests is getting experience and levelling. Once you cease to get experience, I find a significant part of the fun evaporates. I found the system used in Icewindale 2 for artificial regulation to be particularly infuriating.
But that has to be balanced up against gameplay balance, if you level-up too much then it makes BG too easy, and it makes BG2 too easy. That in itself kills the fun later in the game.
In terms of striking a balance my suggestion is that characters be allowed to continue gaining experience after they hit the level-cap. HOWEVER, while they would still need to reach the normal amount of experience to level-up, once they hit that amount they wouldn't actually gain a level. Instead they would gain 1 or 2 hitpoints. The idea behind this is that you still get some kind of palpable benefit for gaining experience, and you still have an incentive to do so. At the same time that benefit is not one which would imbalance BG2. After you hit the level-cap you're only likely to gain 2 or 3 more levels. It would hardly be a significant imbalance if your character went into BG2 with 6 extra hp.
To give an example therefore, say the mage level cap is 9. My mage reaches level 9 and therefore hits that cap. When he gets enough experience to reach level 10, he gets a couple of extra HP, but doesn't actually count as having levelled up. He doesn't therefore get any extra spells or anything like that. At the start of BG2:EE he would start from the level cap in terms of his xp and level.
I think this system would help avoid killing the fun after hitting the level cap, and avoid the imbalance which would result in not having a level cap.
SUMMARY
-After level cap, characters continue to get experience. When they get enough to level, they instead get a couple of extra HP, but don't actually go up a level. This retains balance while avoiding frustrating those who are thorough and hit the level cap early.
One of the fundamental problems which I feel already exists in BG1, but which will be even more noticeable in BG:EE is the level caps.
Trent has already indicated the level cap will be raised a bit (probably 1 or 2 levels), but that will still probably result in players hitting the level cap relatively early if they are thorough.
As a point of principle I hate level-caps. I think they are completely artifical device, and I always find myself using a level-cap remover. The reason for that is one of the core reasons for playing BG/doing quests is getting experience and levelling. Once you cease to get experience, I find a significant part of the fun evaporates. I found the system used in Icewindale 2 for artificial regulation to be particularly infuriating.
But that has to be balanced up against gameplay balance, if you level-up too much then it makes BG too easy, and it makes BG2 too easy. That in itself kills the fun later in the game.
In terms of striking a balance my suggestion is that characters be allowed to continue gaining experience after they hit the level-cap. HOWEVER, while they would still need to reach the normal amount of experience to level-up, once they hit that amount they wouldn't actually gain a level. Instead they would gain 1 or 2 hitpoints. The idea behind this is that you still get some kind of palpable benefit for gaining experience, and you still have an incentive to do so. At the same time that benefit is not one which would imbalance BG2. After you hit the level-cap you're only likely to gain 2 or 3 more levels. It would hardly be a significant imbalance if your character went into BG2 with 6 extra hp.
To give an example therefore, say the mage level cap is 9. My mage reaches level 9 and therefore hits that cap. When he gets enough experience to reach level 10, he gets a couple of extra HP, but doesn't actually count as having levelled up. He doesn't therefore get any extra spells or anything like that. At the start of BG2:EE he would start from the level cap in terms of his xp and level.
I think this system would help avoid killing the fun after hitting the level cap, and avoid the imbalance which would result in not having a level cap.
SUMMARY
-After level cap, characters continue to get experience. When they get enough to level, they instead get a couple of extra HP, but don't actually go up a level. This retains balance while avoiding frustrating those who are thorough and hit the level cap early.
2
Comments
The last time I played BG1 was through a BGT installation. I completed almost all quests in the game including ToSC and ended up with a party of level 8's (though they were close to reaching level 9).
Do people really get to the level cap so easily in vanilla BG1?
Also hitting max has a "clean" feel to it, like an accomplishment, like reaching a goal. In other games, like Diablo for instance, hitting max is disastrous for the gameplay because all you do is try to level (and find loot). After max half the incentive to keep going is gone. But BG isn't that kind of game, at least to me it isn't.
1: You do get too powerful. The only way you could deal with this problem would be to make mobs level-up with you, make fights as difficult as your level. But it then you lse one tool to control the story, the character a bit. And in higher levels, itemization becomes more important, more significant. If you would get the good items, the progressive enemies would be too weak. If you don't get them, they would be too strong.
2: Transfering your char from BG1 to BG2 would have to set your xp level again anyway, otherwise, without xp cap, your imported char might be too powerful.
3: If you don't have a level cap, every point of experience would matter! This way, with level cap, if you do a quest in a way that it gives you less experience, the only "penalty" is to reach higher lvls a bit later. This way you are free to skip quests, while without the cap, you would feel "forced" to do every quest for the xp, even if you don't want to (for laziness or role-play reason)
+: This is really a subjective thing: I like to have a set xp goal for myself. So I have the satisfaction of reaching the "top". Also, the party members can get equalized for the end of the game, even though they had different xp amount before. And no, I don't want them to have equal xp all the time. This is something which makes these games a bit different from games of today... It would completely change the gameplay experience, for what we really love this game
OT: i found iwd2 no experience for easy kills awful. like i didn't have to make an effort to remove those monsters. damn!
i agree with minor hp upgrade and keeping the level cap for the BG:EE for continuity reasons, although i think it should be completely gone for BG2:EE.
i have feeling that further raising level cap for new adventure will create power-problem in bg2:ee that will need to be addressed somehow, be it with more powerful monsters or something else otherwise game might become "easy" on "core rules" difficulty.
My tough is: allow the char to buy status point with exp points (int, con, str...) on the D&D P&P we gain and lose some status point with time, so, based and used as a purchase limit the character number of kills, damaged suffered and spells casts and other variants, the character should be able to buy status points with his experience points, however this is a too raw idea yet and should be refined before an actual use.
@Tanthalas: I remember when I played vanilla BG1, I was at max level as I first entered Baldur's Gate (party of 6).
In BG1+ToTSC I was at pretty much max level by the time I did Durlag's Tower, you can easily gain several levels there. There are plenty of enemies who give 4000xp each in there.
In any event there's going to be a lot more experience to play with this time round.
@Senash:
I don't understand the context this first point is being made. You are right that you do get too poweful without a level cap, but I'm not advocating getting rid of the level cap. Are you saying that you get too powerful even with a level cap?
I think you may have misunderstood the request slightly. It is for the level cap to STAY, but for a couple of extra HP to be awarded for when you would otherwise have got a level. Over the course of the whole game, that's only likely to result in about 0-8 exra hp.
@Sarevok57: the extra hps are for when you WOULD have reached a new level. The request is that the game doesn't treat you as having advanced beyond the level-cap. So when you import into BG2 you start at the level-cap with level cap xp. So for example, if you reached the level cap at level 8, but you got enough experience for level 10, you would get 4 extra hp, but you would still be level 8 and your xp would still be at level cap.
@Bhryaen: your thoughts on this?
@Winthal: you have a good point. But I would say the principle reward for doing quests, in game terms, is experience. When you stop getting rewarded because of some artificial cap, for me seems like the game saying f*** y**.
I appreciate there are role playing considerations, but if you are going to use that as an argument you have to appreciate that it's a bit of a bastard sword, it cuts both ways. On the one hand, 'BG isn't that kind of game' the game isn't about XP and there are other reasons for adventuring. But on the other hand, why should you stop becoming more experienced, more skillful if your experience has taught you that? Because an arbitrary limit says, no, you can't learn or improve anymore? That's just as inconsistent with the spirit of BG -a game which is entirely about your character developing and realising his power (think about what happens over the course of BG1, the plot of BG2 and how ToB ends).
No, I completely agree... for better or worse. I can't stand the level cap and will be getting rid of it in BGEE, no bout a doubt it. I haven't wanted to suggest it as a Feature Request because, well, they won't do that. Why would they declare they'll be increasing the level cap... and also be completely lifting it? But I feel exactly the same about it: the metagamed stifling of XP gain despite your having done all you could to gain and advance all you could in preparation for the final showdown with Sarevok (not even metagaming about Irenicus who I've only fought once anyway) just feels like a .
As for your specific idea, I'm not liking a nerfed level advancement either, even as reasonable a "compromise" as it appears to be... As it is, I'd rather the game become unbalanced due to my CHARNAME's thorough but genuine XP gains than level progression be suddenly given a game-stoppingly refereed whistle because the extra XP wasn't calculated for by the game's dev team. I never advance in XP beyond what the game itself allows, and I never cheat on XP, (though I've been known on occasion to exploit the occasional game glitch), so I don't see why I should be penalized for going the gamut. This is partly the powergamer in me talking, but also mostly my aversion to heavy-handed, metagamed tactics by game devs to achieve game presentation goals. If they couldn't achieve those goals without enabling players like me to get gobs o' XP beyond their prescriptions, that's their oops, not mine, so don't penalize me. :-P
Good post, as always.
On BG:EE that could be included as an option... but then who would willingly "limit their own power"
I'll probably be using a LC remover too.
As for getting satisfaction and rewards in the game after hitting the level cap: GOOOLD! UNLIMITED GOOOOOOLD!!! As my dear friend, Darth Sidious would have said
So for me, the items and gold you get from quest rewards is enough. Maybe, like in some MMO-s, after you hit the level cap, you would get more gold from quests instead of XP?
Problems solved!?
Just kidding =P
This would also give a sense of urgency I think.
In my mind, this would be an optional thing picked at the start of the game between playing with the XP cap and playing without.
Reason: We don't want the game to be easy, but we also don't want an XP cap.
however i agree it should be an advanced option and i oppose the "always scaled experience" system as seen in icewind dale 2 leading to zero experience for easy kills. also, i do not think game should make an extra effort to control your progress all the time, forcing you to complete everything to reach the cap. extra exploration should be rewarded somehow.
Scaling only the bosses as you suggest might work better... however, I could also see situations where that might also create an imbalance in power level between bosses and the enemies leading up to the boss in the same dungeon. If you attempt a dungeon with level 6 monsters at say level 3, have a pretty hard time getting past them but succeed because of good tactics and items, then reach the boss and he is scaled to level 3 and just goes down way too easy compared to everything else. Or another example, fighting the insanely difficult Battle Horrors before Daveorn in the Cloakwood mines, then facing the man himself and he'll just be a joke compared to them...