Can Str be a viable dump stat for a non min/maxing Fighter/Mage?

Oxford_Guy

It may seem like an oxymoron, but I'm wondering whether it's viable to have a fighter/mage with a relatively low Str score (e.g. 15 for full plate mail, or even as low as 13, for flail, or 12 for normal plate/medium shield)? The thing is, I don't really like excessive min/maxing and would like my elf fighter/mage with at least Wis 8 and Cha 8 (which is the race minimum anyway), also I don't like the idea of rolling my stats for hours to get a "perfect" stat score, and would prefer to set a self-imposed limit of 10 rolls (maybe 20 for this class), so it might not be possible to get high stats in Str, Dex, Con *and* Int.

On the other hand, I want to use my fighter/mage in melee, dual-wielding long swords (later with Belm and a ling sword) and self-buffing, rather than as an archer, so will need decent strength.

Of course there are gauntlets that give you 18/00 strength, but I can't remember how early you can get these in BG1 or BG2 and/or whether there are situations where these won't be around to help, when you most need them...

Another downside, of course, in not having Str 18, is I won't be able to boost it to Str 19 with a time, which can be *much* better than most 18/xx scores.

Opinions?

Mungri

You don't need str at all for a fighter / mage. You never need to wear armor, just robes. You can simply have the fighter classes for HP and thaco, and have a high dex plus more attacks per round on your melfs meteors, energy blades, and polymorphs.

elminster

Oxford_Guy said:

It may seem like an oxymoron, but I'm wondering whether it's viable to have a fighter/mage with a relatively low Str score (e.g. 15 for full plate mail, or even as low as 13, for flail, or 12 for normal plate/medium shield)? The thing is, I don't really like excessive min/maxing and would like my elf fighter/mage with at least Wis 8 and Cha 8 (which is the race minimum anyway), also I don't like the idea of rolling my stats for hours to get a "perfect" stat score, and would prefer to set a self-imposed limit of 10 rolls (maybe 20 for this class), so it might not be possible to get high stats in Str, Dex, Con *and* Int.

On the other hand, I want to use my fighter/mage in melee, dual-wielding long swords (later with Belm and a ling sword) and self-buffing, rather than as an archer, so will need decent strength.

Of course there are gauntlets that give you 18/00 strength, but I can't remember how early you can get these in BG1 or BG2 and/or whether there are situations where these won't be around to help, when you most need them...

Another downside, of course, in not having Str 18, is I won't be able to boost it to Str 19 with a time, which can be *much* better than most 18/xx scores.

Opinions?

You don't get gauntlets of ogre strength until you are in the city of Baldur's Gate.

Oxford_Guy

Mungri said:

You don't need str at all for a fighter / mage. You never need to wear armor, just robes. You can simply have the fighter classes for HP and thaco, and have a high dex plus more attacks per round on your melfs meteors, energy blades, and polymorphs.

You certainly need armour at the start, until you can get enough decent buff spells and robes, and I htink the Robe of Evil Archmagi aren't available until quite laye in BG1, though I won't be wearing armour heavier than elven chain later in BG2 (or possibly BGEE, if they add any).

I'm more concerned, though, about having poor THAC0 and damage due to low strength, as do want to get involved in melee

Oxford_Guy

You don't get gauntlets of ogre strength until you are in the city of Baldur's Gate.

Bugger, that's quite a long way into the game...

What about in BG2?

elminster

Oxford_Guy said:

You don't get gauntlets of ogre strength until you are in the city of Baldur's Gate.

Bugger, that's quite a long way into the game...

What about in BG2?

You can buy the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength (19 strength) from Ribald in Waukeens promenade.

Mungri

No you don't need armor at the start, level 1 armor spell is fine and lasts 8 hours. You should be avoiding everything and using ranged weapons while your HP is low.

ryuken87

In BG1 I'd go for 18 so that you can use the tome to get 19.

In BG2 the Gauntlets are available in chapter 2 as is the 19 str belt while the 20 and 21 str belts aren't available until chapters 7 and 5 respectively.

Consider which NPCs you're taking as well. If you have Jaheira, Khalid, Coran, Valygar, Keldorn, etc. then you might want have a decent str on your PC so you can give the items to those who need them more. It also frees up the item slot on your PC for something else.

Sharn

I have always considered str of less importance than many people, even in pnp, str increasing items are not hard to get in 2nd edition D&D, they also make you immune to enemies with strength drain or damage abilities since they set you at a fixed str amount.

You should probably try for at least a 13 str though, you wont be getting any str increasing items early in the game, though you could rely on the str spell to enhance it, which I believe sets it to 18/50 for 1 hour per level of the caster.

BG2 has a girdle of hill giant str from Ribald as previously posted, his shop is right next to the exit of Irenicus's dungeon that you start the game in.

elminster

You also don't need to have max intelligence. Its nice to have for memorising but not needed.

bigdogchris

I like Fighter/Mages, but think Dex might be better as you can then focus on ranged combat as FM do have lower HP and AC.

elminster

Sharn said:

I have always considered str of less importance than many people, even in pnp, str increasing items are not hard to get in 2nd edition D&D, they also make you immune to enemies with strength drain or damage abilities since they set you at a fixed str amount.

You should probably try for at least a 13 str though, you wont be getting any str increasing items early in the game, though you could rely on the str spell to enhance it, which I believe sets it to 18/50 for 1 hour per level of the caster.

BG2 has a girdle of hill giant str from Ribald as previously posted, his shop is right next to the exit of Irenicus's dungeon that you start the game in.

Yea you can just use strength and its duration is as you say it is.

Oxford_Guy

bigdogchris said:

I like Fighter/Mages, but think Dex might be better as you can then focus on ranged combat as FM do have lower HP and AC.

Perhaps, but that's not really how I want to play my F/M

Oxford_Guy

elminster said:

You also don't need to have max intelligence. Its nice to have for memorising but not needed.

True, but I don't want to have to glug a potion everytime I want to learn (sometimes difficult to obtain) scrolls, and don't like re-loading on fail

DinsdalePiranha

you can decrease STR, but... it's not recommended. even with a str of 3, you can use a second level wizard spell, called (surprisingly) Strength, and up it to 18/50... however! with 18 str, you could get the strength tome, and up to 19 instantly. also, with 18/50+ str, the strength spell ups you into 18/00.

but I don't think you should worry about dump stats - fighter/mages roll high. even with 18s in str, dex, con, int, you can easily have average cha and wis.

Oxford_Guy

ryuken87 said:

In BG1 I'd go for 18 so that you can use the tome to get 19.

In BG2 the Gauntlets are available in chapter 2 as is the 19 str belt while the 20 and 21 str belts aren't available until chapters 7 and 5 respectively.

Consider which NPCs you're taking as well. If you have Jaheira, Khalid, Coran, Valygar, Keldorn, etc. then you might want have a decent str on your PC so you can give the items to those who need them more. It also frees up the item slot on your PC for something else.

I'll have Dorn and probably Montaron, Viconia (who could do with those Str gloves really...), Safana (or Imoen) and Edwin or Xzar

Silence

Honestly? Str/Int/Wis/Cha can all be dump stats for a fighter-mage.

LOW STR is easily circumvented by:

1. Early bow use. Bows are so kicka$$ you don't even need a proficiency in them, but it sure helps.
2. The strength spell (Mage Level 2, Alteration). The spell is easy to get early in the game and gives you most of the benefits of high strength score.
3. Further into the game, you of course get the gauntlets of ogre power, which solve your problem completely.

You will never need WIS, which is sad. CHA helps, but really reputation covers most of what CHA is supposed to do.

You don't really need INT, because you 1) can reload till you learn your spells or 2) drink a potion of genius to learn spells and 3) odds are that you'll never use more than 3 or 4 spells, so max spells per level does not matter.

I would never dump CON, as CON-increasing items are rare in the BG saga. I like keeping DEX high, just because STR-enhancing items are much more common than DEX-enhancing items.

elminster

DinsdalePiranha said:

you can decrease STR, but... it's not recommended. even with a str of 3, you can use a second level wizard spell, called (surprisingly) Strength, and up it to 18/50... however! with 18 str, you could get the strength tome, and up to 19 instantly. also, with 18/50+ str, the strength spell ups you into 18/00.

but I don't think you should worry about dump stats - fighter/mages roll high. even with 18s in str, dex, con, int, you can easily have average cha and wis.

I think so long as you roll an 88 you can do this (you'd have 8 charisma, 8 wisdom, and maxed other stats). I just made a elf fighter/mage and I rolled an 87 on the first roll (after 20 rolls I didn't do any better than this) so it is very doable.

Pantalion

Allow me to put this into perspective.

End of BG: Fighter 7/Mage 7.

Base THAC0: 14
With a +3 sword, specialisation: THAC0 10.

With 19 Strength (post tome): THAC0 7
With 8-15 Strength (post tome): THAC0 10.

That's all. +3 to hit and a few extra points of damage per.

I know I ran through with a Ranger/Cleric at 15 Strength and felt like a badass throughout BG1 anyway, even sans buffs, so really wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you.

Mungri

Also if you polymorph to a spider your strength gets locked to 16, but with 5 attacks per round and poison. Carry a wand of paralysis too and you can shred through any caster or armored fighter in seconds.

Oxford_Guy

DinsdalePiranha said:

you can decrease STR, but... it's not recommended. even with a str of 3, you can use a second level wizard spell, called (surprisingly) Strength, and up it to 18/50... however! with 18 str, you could get the strength tome, and up to 19 instantly. also, with 18/50+ str, the strength spell ups you into 18/00.

but I don't think you should worry about dump stats - fighter/mages roll high. even with 18s in str, dex, con, int, you can easily have average cha and wis.

Do you mean because the minimum stats for an elf fighter/mage are quite high (Str 9/Dex 7/Con 6/Int 9/ Wis 3/ Cha 8), so you get a boost to your rolls?

Oxford_Guy

Silence said:

Honestly? Str/Int/Wis/Cha can all be dump stats for a fighter-mage.

LOW STR is easily circumvented by:

1. Early bow use. Bows are so kicka$$ you don't even need a proficiency in them, but it sure helps.
2. The strength spell (Mage Level 2, Alteration). The spell is easy to get early in the game and gives you most of the benefits of high strength score.
3. Further into the game, you of course get the gauntlets of ogre power, which solve your problem completely.

You will never need WIS, which is sad. CHA helps, but really reputation covers most of what CHA is supposed to do.

My reputation will *suck*, I will be playing an evil party and being very *bad* :-)

But I will have Dorn and Safana or Imoen with me, who all have good Charisma, which will help in shops/encounters

Silence said:

You don't really need INT, because you 1) can reload till you learn your spells or 2) drink a potion of genius to learn spells and 3) odds are that you'll never use more than 3 or 4 spells, so max spells per level does not matter.

I don't like doing 1) but would considering saving up learning a bunch of scrolls for when I use a potion. I think 15 or 16 Int is the lowest I'd want to go, as like having quite alot of choice of spells.

Silence said:

I would never dump CON, as CON-increasing items are rare in the BG saga. I like keeping DEX high, just because STR-enhancing items are much more common than DEX-enhancing items.

and I have at least on NPC in mind who could do with the Dex gloves...

Oxford_Guy

Mungri said:

Also if you polymorph to a spider your strength gets locked to 16, but with 5 attacks per round and poison. Carry a wand of paralysis too and you can shred through any caster or armored fighter in seconds.

Interesting! Do you still get extra attacks if Belm or Kundane is in your off-hand before Polymorphing? I assume you can't cast spells whilst polymorphed, though?

Oxford_Guy

BTW good insights everyone, keep 'em coming! :-)

AHF

Sharn said:

I have always considered str of less importance than many people, even in pnp, str increasing items are not hard to get in 2nd edition D&D, they also make you immune to enemies with strength drain or damage abilities since they set you at a fixed str amount.

Just to clarify, the belts, etc. don't make you immune to strength drain. They just give you a higher baseline. A shadow or something that drains strength will reduce a character's strength down from the level granted by the item.

Silence

I agree with wanting a high INT. It makes for a more plausible, well-rounded character. I was just providing a 'power-gamer' perspective on how you could really junk almost any stat. Ideally, I'd have high STR and INT.

Good luck with the character, I'm sure it'll rock.

elminster

Oxford_Guy said:

Mungri said:

Also if you polymorph to a spider your strength gets locked to 16, but with 5 attacks per round and poison. Carry a wand of paralysis too and you can shred through any caster or armored fighter in seconds.

Interesting! Do you still get extra attacks if Belm or Kundane is in your off-hand before Polymorphing? I assume you can't cast spells whilst polymorphed, though?

No you can't cast spells while polymorphed

Oxford_Guy

Silence said:

I agree with wanting a high INT. It makes for a more plausible, well-rounded character. I was just providing a 'power-gamer' perspective on how you could really junk almost any stat. Ideally, I'd have high STR and INT.

Good luck with the character, I'm sure it'll rock.

Thanks, maybe I'll roll enough points in my quota to do 18/19/17/18/8/8 LOL!! I could certainly live with lower, though.

AHF

elminster said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Mungri said:

Also if you polymorph to a spider your strength gets locked to 16, but with 5 attacks per round and poison. Carry a wand of paralysis too and you can shred through any caster or armored fighter in seconds.

Interesting! Do you still get extra attacks if Belm or Kundane is in your off-hand before Polymorphing? I assume you can't cast spells whilst polymorphed, though?

No you can't cast spells while polymorphed

A spell casting, magic-immune mustard jelly would be pretty rough.

Mungri

Oxford_Guy said:

Mungri said:

Also if you polymorph to a spider your strength gets locked to 16, but with 5 attacks per round and poison. Carry a wand of paralysis too and you can shred through any caster or armored fighter in seconds.

Interesting! Do you still get extra attacks if Belm or Kundane is in your off-hand before Polymorphing? I assume you can't cast spells whilst polymorphed, though?

No, but you can use wands, and you get 5 attacks per round or 100% magic immunity.

BG1 sword spider rapeage (after the first couple of fights):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIRT3lPYYAo

Lemernis

Maybe set a 3 minute time limit on rolling? Or 5 minutes (tops)? That's not that long. And you may well get some very nice scores for Str, Con, Dex, and Int, and respectable numbers for Cha and Wis.