Wasnt the free the djinn reward changed?

Question2

I thought the sword of chaos was moved to the cambion and he now gives you a reward based on your proficiencies, but the cambion only dropped a +1 bastard sword and the djinn still gives me the sword of chaos...

ThacoBell

I recall the Djinn always giving you the Sword of Chaos. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though.

sarevok57

Question2 said:

I thought the sword of chaos was moved to the cambion and he now gives you a reward based on your proficiencies, but the cambion only dropped a +1 bastard sword and the djinn still gives me the sword of chaos...

back in some earlier patch this was the case, but now what happens instead is that the djinni and cambion weapons are back as they were originally and your "special" weapon will be in the room on the table where there is the golem that needs the activation stone to continue

Question2

Oh that explains a lot...thanks.

UnderstandMouseMagic

sarevok57 said:

Question2 said:

I thought the sword of chaos was moved to the cambion and he now gives you a reward based on your proficiencies, but the cambion only dropped a +1 bastard sword and the djinn still gives me the sword of chaos...

back in some earlier patch this was the case, but now what happens instead is that the djinni and cambion weapons are back as they were originally and your "special" weapon will be in the room on the table where there is the golem that needs the activation stone to continue

Why?

I have recently re downloaded version 1.3 and for the first time ever I got Varscona from the djinn. An imported save character has never worked properly before so I was very pleased. And it fits so much better with the dialogue.

Grond0

@UnderstandMouseMagic I think some people felt aggrieved that the original game behavior had been changed. The current version therefore keeps that behavior, but still provides characters with an additional decent usable weapon.

Question2

On a related note, was the mail of the dead changed to? Illyich wasnt wearing it like he normally does.

CamDawg

Nothing's changed with Ilyich; he'll have whatever armor gets imported via import01, which is often--but not necessarily--the Mail of the Dead. It can also be Chain Mail +3, Fallorain's Plate +1, Protector of the Second +2, or the Armor of Missile Attraction +2.

Question2

Strange, he spawned with regular leather armor...

Grond0

Have you got Item Randomizer or something similar as a mod.

GreenWarlock

Ugh! putting on the training wheels again . Finding that weapon to replace your goto-weapon for the PC was often first order of business after leaving Chateaux Irenicus. Moving it to the Genie quest was already a simplification, but it fit the script. Moving it to before your first fight, with the whole dungeon before you, robs you of any discovery and achievement. Starting the game with a weapon strong enough to see me through the first 5 chapters or so just feels wrong. Sorry, not a fan

ThacoBell

@GreenWarlock How was moving it to the Genie a simplification? In the original BG2, it was always just sitting on the table in the room with the sewer golem.

GreenWarlock

I never remember getting any magical weapons before the Cambion/Genie, certainly no carry-over from BG1. All the guides talk of only 3 carry-overs prior to the EEs too, the pantaloons, a suit of armor, and a helmet/ring. The new item on the table is exactly that - new, and strong, and powerful compared to the original balance of Irenicus dungeon.

Neverused

What weapon in BG1 is strong enough to carry you through the first 5 chapters? O_o. There's certainly some OK ones from SoD, but the only one that I'd use for longer than the early game is Biter, and it's only slightly better than the Crimson Dart which is available really early as well. Every other weapon just seems relatively weak for BG2.

CamDawg

ThacoBell said:

@GreenWarlock How was moving it to the Genie a simplification? In the original BG2, it was always just sitting on the table in the room with the sewer golem.

import02 is something we've restored--there's no weapon on the table in OBG2. I know Almateria's Restoration Pack also restores import02 for the original, and I think maybe UB as well.

GreenWarlock

@Neverused I heard at least Varscona mentioned, which is adequate for a longsword-specialized fighter tor the first 5 chapters - yes, you can find better, but mostly you won't need to. It may mean circumventing the odd +3 encounter, or deferring to other party members, but you will not feel unduly out of place.

Neverused

I mean, Varscona is a +2 Longsword with a +1 ice damage rider effect. Sword of Chaos is a +2 2h sword with a 1d4 drain rider effect. I don't see how it's really unbalancing, except I guess it makes your fighter with grandmastery in something somewhat competent out of the gate.

ThacoBell

Varscona is quickly outclassed in SoD, let alone BG2.

Question2

Grond0 said:

Have you got Item Randomizer or something similar as a mod.

Nope.

Question2

On a related note, was the mail of the dead changed to? Illyich wasnt wearing it like he normally does.

ThacoBell said:

Varscona is quickly outclassed in SoD, let alone BG2.

You only get a few +3 weapons by the end of SOD, theres like one +3 longsword and you get it right before the final boss fight IIRC.

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

ThacoBell

Question2 said:

On a related note, was the mail of the dead changed to? Illyich wasnt wearing it like he normally does.

ThacoBell said:

Varscona is quickly outclassed in SoD, let alone BG2.

You only get a few +3 weapons by the end of SOD, theres like one +3 longsword and you get it right before the final boss fight IIRC.

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Weapons are more than their damage modifier. There are several really good +2 weapons with great secondary effects that outclass Varscona's piddly +1 ice damage.

borntodie

Question2 said:

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Well you can get Lilarcor, the +3 fire axe and the +3 undeadslaying throwing axe all very early. FoA is an easy grab after that.

ThacoBell

borntodie said:

Question2 said:

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Well you can get Lilarcor, the +3 fire axe and the +3 undeadslaying throwing axe all very early. FoA is an easy grab after that.

Not to mention the lich killing Daystar. For free. For zero risk.

GreenWarlock

ThacoBell said:

Question2 said:

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Weapons are more than their damage modifier. There are several really good +2 weapons with great secondary effects that outclass Varscona's piddly +1 ice damage.

The point is not that you must struggle to find better weapons - although it will take a while without meta-knowledge. The issue is that you do not NEED to find better weapons. For order of business leaving Chateaux Irenicus used to be getting kitted up to a basic level - even +1 weapons were a find! Yes, with experience we can short-cut to the quickest and easiest, but that is not the game that got its reputation from folks exploring a relatively open world, wide eyed with wonder when they did not know what was out there.

A fighter-type leaving Irenus dungeon effectively fully kitted up has little to aspire to. Heck, we may even take the plot's hurry-up messages seriously and set about rescuing Imoen post-haste!

I guess I am salty because the most fun and satisfying parts of the game is the Xero to hero voyage at the start of the game, and this is largely giving that all away (at least I don't get an XP boost to boost, as SoD is still not available on my platform ). You can argue that I should just ignore it then, if that is my beef, but there is nothing satisfying about deliberately walking past the thing you are desperately searching for. If it is there, it has an impact, shaping my experience of the game.

If modders want to put their go-faster stripes on dungeons, that's fine, but you opt in to playing a mod. Fundamentally skewing the balance of the first 5-10 hours of gameplay (and maybe more, without meta) out-the-box is a very different proposition.

ThacoBell

@GreenWarlock It originally intended that 1 weapon would import in the vanilla game. A programming bug prevented that from happening. The zero to hero happened in BG1. At the start of BG2, you are already an established, experienced hero. The game SHOWERS you with magic weapons right from the start. Heck, there is +2 or greater chainmail right there in the first dungeon as well. But I don't see people complaining about its inclusion.

Borek

ThacoBell said:

borntodie said:

Question2 said:

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Well you can get Lilarcor, the +3 fire axe and the +3 undeadslaying throwing axe all very early. FoA is an easy grab after that.

Not to mention the lich killing Daystar. For free. For zero risk.

Yeah just be warned SCS will lock the room until the Lich is dead, so daystar will take a tough fight to gain.

sarevok57

Borek said:

ThacoBell said:

borntodie said:

Question2 said:

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Well you can get Lilarcor, the +3 fire axe and the +3 undeadslaying throwing axe all very early. FoA is an easy grab after that.

Not to mention the lich killing Daystar. For free. For zero risk.

Yeah just be warned SCS will lock the room until the Lich is dead, so daystar will take a tough fight to gain.

even without cheese (as in not going in and out of the room to make the lich waste spells), and non-SCS all you need is protection from evil/fire and mace of diruption and then GG lich holmes

UnderstandMouseMagic

ThacoBell said:

Question2 said:

On a related note, was the mail of the dead changed to? Illyich wasnt wearing it like he normally does.

ThacoBell said:

Varscona is quickly outclassed in SoD, let alone BG2.

You only get a few +3 weapons by the end of SOD, theres like one +3 longsword and you get it right before the final boss fight IIRC.

Even in BG 2, you use +2 weapons at best for most of chapter 2.

Weapons are more than their damage modifier. There are several really good +2 weapons with great secondary effects that outclass Varscona's piddly +1 ice damage.

Varscona is very effective at disrupting mages.
Less things have cold protection.

Having found it for the first time in CI on my playthrough, it's surprising the difference it makes.
Admitedly playing without SCS for the first time for ages, but I'll probably use it until I can pick up CF it's proving so good.

And such a great sound effect. Really satisfying.

GreenWarlock

@ThacoBell +2 chainmail is so-so at best, I rarely if ever use it. It offers less protection than decent plate armor, but disables your ability to use magic rings etc. with better bonuses. That is not on the same scale as a +2 weapon, tuned to your character's proficiencies, that you get for free before the first fight. I could live with the change that you earn it from the genie quest, as that is the pinacle of Irenicus dungeon, but as a gimme before even the first fight? That is not fixing a coding bug - if that was the original design, I suspect it was dropped on purpose, for balance/enjoyment of the game.

sarevok57

did you know that the helm of balduran ( which i believe to be one of the best helms in the game ) i ALWAYS take with me from irenicus' first dungeon all the way to the last battle for the throne of bhaal

and this is found in the FIRST dungeon of bg2 and is an item that i take until i reach my true destiny, everything else in chateau irenicus will eventually be sold

Grond0

GreenWarlock said:

@ThacoBell +2 chainmail is so-so at best, I rarely if ever use it. It offers less protection than decent plate armor, but disables your ability to use magic rings etc. with better bonuses. That is not on the same scale as a +2 weapon, tuned to your character's proficiencies, that you get for free before the first fight. I could live with the change that you earn it from the genie quest, as that is the pinacle of Irenicus dungeon, but as a gimme before even the first fight? That is not fixing a coding bug - if that was the original design, I suspect it was dropped on purpose, for balance/enjoyment of the game.

I agree with @sarevok57 that the +2 weapon is not unbalanced. It was intended to be provided by the original developers and is indeed a decent weapon at the start - but clearly less powerful than the Helm of Balduran / Claw of Kazgaroth / Horn of Kazgaroth etc available in one of the other transfer slots. There are a selection of weapons as good or better than the +2 one available for sale in the Promenade, so it's not like the weapon from the dungeon stands out as something wonderful - it's just one of the intended bonuses to get you off to a running start in BG2.