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Why was a mod that adds saves based on high Wisdom score never made?

WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 183
in General Modding
I believe in PnP you're supposed to receive a bonus to your saves(vs. spell?) based on high Wisdom scores. The feature even made it to the original Baldur's Gate manual(page 136 as "Mag Def Adj"), though it was never actually implemented in the game.

You'd think that, in the past 20 years, someone would make a mod for it... so I assume it's simply impossible to do alltogether?

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    that magic defence bonus i believe is for mind influencing effects ( like charm ) i don't see why it can't be implemented since beamdog has given elves their proper resistance to charm

    but i suppose no one was to worried about it, hence the reason why no one made a mode for it, unless perhaps back in the day it wasn't possible to implement but maybe now adays it is thanks to beamdog making it easier to mod the game
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  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 183
    subtledoctor said:

    Even now, you can't really make a save bonus against particular spells.

    So how does, say, Claw of Kazgaroth work then? It boosts all your saves except for the Death save which is tanked, and it existed in vanilla BG.
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  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 399
    It isn't implemented? Damn...I always took high wisdom to protect me from charm and domination spells. It's far from perfect, but I can think of one "fix" that would work on both EE and the original. Influence type spells usually affect your STATE, so you could write a simple script that helps to remove such States if players1-6 have a high enough wisdom.
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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited September 2018
    subtledoctor said:

    No no no... that would be immunity. All I'm saying is, it can be done properly, as a save bonus, but you have to generalize what spells it works against. If you're willing to say high WIS gives you a bonus to saves vs. all spells from the Enchantment/Charm school, then you could implement it exactly as per the PnP bonus. (On the 2.0-2.5 engines.)

    That would miss spells like cloak of fear that are not enchantment spells.

    It seems you could just patch all of the existent spells where the save bonus applies, and have them apply a #326 based on the targets wisdom score that grants a 1 second bonus to saves (i.e. based on that targets wisdom score) as the first effect.

    The first step is compiling a list of the relevant spells. Clearly all enchantment spells should be on the list. Fear spells like horror should be on the list. but a few others I'm not sure about. Blindness? Symbol, stun? Not sure
  • WatchForWolvesWatchForWolves Member Posts: 183
    I think the original intent was for it to just be a Save vs. Spell.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,459
    I think the original intent was to replicate the P&P wisdom bonus, but they found that too difficult to do. The information about the bonus given in the Players Handbook is as follows:
    "That Magical Defense Adjustment listed on Table 5 applies to saving throws against magical spells that attack the mind: beguiling, charm, fear, hypnosis, illusions, possession, suggestion, etc. These bonuses and penalties are applied automatically, without any conscious effort from the character."
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 1,055
    Illusion and enchantment/charm then?
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  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 399
    Well I'm all about quick easy imperfect solutions, this is my scripting workaround I've implemented for myself on iwdee. Feel free to rip it apart... here comes the no no no

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    Grond0 said:

    I think the original intent was to replicate the P&P wisdom bonus, but they found that too difficult to do. The information about the bonus given in the Players Handbook is as follows:
    "That Magical Defense Adjustment listed on Table 5 applies to saving throws against magical spells that attack the mind: beguiling, charm, fear, hypnosis, illusions, possession, suggestion, etc. These bonuses and penalties are applied automatically, without any conscious effort from the character."

    Okay, cool. Enchantment spells, illusion spells, a few necromancer spells, and any other spell or item that has an 'emotion' like effect. Probably not a spell like blindness, which, we could conceptualize as affecting the body (i.e. the eyes specifically) as opposed to the mind. Probably not paralysis or stun effects for the same reason.
  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 399
    Fair play, good to see a person who takes action, rather than just talk about it
  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 379
    Subtledoctor, does this mod you just made add wisdom bonus to saves against illusion and enchantment school spells?
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  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 379
    Sounds awesome. I was looking for something like this to make wisdom useful for non-divine casters. Wisdom will not be a dump stat anymore
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    subtledoctor said:

    Yeah. I think I'm going to do somethimg like this for several stats:
    - DEX = bonus vs. evocation/conjuration
    - CON = bonus vs. alteration
    - INT = bonus vs. illusion
    - WIS = bonus vs. enchantment
    - CHA = bonus vs. necromancy/enchantment

    Cool idea. I'd suggest not having enchantment get bonuses from BOTH Wisdom and Charisma, i.e., Charisma vs. Necromancy only or have only the higher bonus apply.

    The Charisma bonus vs Necromancy/Enchantment would be especially powerful for Paladins, since they would get a minimum +3 bonus vs. those spells (in addition to their +2 class save bonus). Also the readily available Ring of Human Influence in BG2 means every CHARNAME gets a +4 bonus to these saves.

    Also, would the CON bonus vs. alteration stack with the "shorty saves"?
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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    subtledoctor said:

    AstroBryGuy said:

    I'd suggest not having enchantment get bonuses from BOTH Wisdom and Charisma, i.e., Charisma vs. Necromancy only or have only the higher bonus apply.

    I don't know, I feel like if you invest points in the two dumpiest dump stats, you should get a nice reward for that.
    Not for a Druid. Wisdom is the bomb for them (extra spells) and Charisma is a minimum 15. So, a druid in BG2 can easily have a +8 to Enchantment saves in BG2 (18+ Wisdom is doable with tomes, even without min-maxing Wisdom to 18 at level 1; 18 Charisma is achievable with the 15 minimum, +1 for the BG1 tome, +2 for your modified Ring of Human Influence).

    You also didn't specify it was part of a mega-mod that would alter classes and items. That's an important bit of information on the balance.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    AstroBryGuy said:

    subtledoctor said:

    AstroBryGuy said:

    I'd suggest not having enchantment get bonuses from BOTH Wisdom and Charisma, i.e., Charisma vs. Necromancy only or have only the higher bonus apply.

    I don't know, I feel like if you invest points in the two dumpiest dump stats, you should get a nice reward for that.
    Not for a Druid. Wisdom is the bomb for them (extra spells) and Charisma is a minimum 15. So, a druid in BG2 can easily have a +8 to Enchantment saves in BG2 (18+ Wisdom is doable with tomes, even without min-maxing Wisdom to 18 at level 1; 18 Charisma is achievable with the 15 minimum, +1 for the BG1 tome, +2 for your modified Ring of Human Influence).

    You also didn't specify it was part of a mega-mod that would alter classes and items. That's an important bit of information on the balance.
    Its not a megamod? Megamods require EET and span multiple games. SoB is just a tweak mod. Like say, atweaks or tweaks anthlogy.
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  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    ThacoBell said:

    AstroBryGuy said:

    subtledoctor said:

    AstroBryGuy said:

    I'd suggest not having enchantment get bonuses from BOTH Wisdom and Charisma, i.e., Charisma vs. Necromancy only or have only the higher bonus apply.

    I don't know, I feel like if you invest points in the two dumpiest dump stats, you should get a nice reward for that.
    Not for a Druid. Wisdom is the bomb for them (extra spells) and Charisma is a minimum 15. So, a druid in BG2 can easily have a +8 to Enchantment saves in BG2 (18+ Wisdom is doable with tomes, even without min-maxing Wisdom to 18 at level 1; 18 Charisma is achievable with the 15 minimum, +1 for the BG1 tome, +2 for your modified Ring of Human Influence).

    You also didn't specify it was part of a mega-mod that would alter classes and items. That's an important bit of information on the balance.
    Its not a megamod? Megamods require EET and span multiple games. SoB is just a tweak mod. Like say, atweaks or tweaks anthlogy.
    Sorry, I should have said "a much larger mod that includes altering race, class, and item abilities". It's a matter of scale, I guess, but once a "tweak" requires modding classes, races, and items to work, I think it goes beyond a tweak. A tweak to me would be a small, independent component.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I always grouped tweaks as mods that change game rules. For the purposes of installation order.
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