Vampirism VS Lichdom? On DnD/Pathfinder setting

SorcererV1ct0r

A lot of people say that Liches are stronger than vampires, and the truth is: Yes; the average Lich needs to be at least capable of casting high level spells(7/8/9) while the average vampire just need to be LV 5. Both offers diferents benefits and downsides so i will "standardize" an setting.

• The character wants to become an ruler
  
  
• The character is a lv 18 caster
  
  
• The character wanna more time because he is already an 55 year old human and must decide between lichdom or vampirism to have more time to realize his dream
  
  
• The character is relative wealth but not to the point of recruiting an big mercenary army or bribe high nobles
  
  
• The 3 neighbor kingdoms have an population of around 0,8-1.2 million each, and an mutual defense agreement
  
  
• Each kingdom have some(3-5) lv 18-20 heroes nobles, most of then melee warriors but some cleric/casters and all of then have access to epic(+%) weapons.
  
  
• Most soldiers are around lv 3-7(recruits/veterans) and most nobles was submeted to a harsh training since his childhood so his overall level is 10-15(with few exceptions) and most members of high mobility have access to +2/+3 weapons, around 10% of the country population is of soldiers. Veterans have access to +1 weapon in general
  
  
• The character knows that in his lifetime, there are no way to build an force that can surpass the enemy. He must use strategy, diplomacy, etc; after becoming immortal and as a high level sorc, he can find ways to have an lichdoom potion or to capture an vampire and turn himself into a vampire and kill his "sire" in the process.
  
  

What "cheat death template" is the best one to him, he needs to build an considerable force, become much stronger, accumulate wealth, find a lot of powerful servants, etc and have a lot of time for it(since he will be immortal).

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My honest opinion, for "Rule by force", Lich is best, for rule with Charisma, vampire is the best, for a Wizard, Lichdom fits more and for a Sorcerer, Vampirism fits better. Any troughs? IMHO the life as a Lich is not a good life, if living isolated, without being able to taste food, to have pleasure, being just a living decayed corpse...

voidofopinion

SorcererV1ct0r said:

My honest opinion, for "Rule by force", Lich is best, for rule with Charisma, vampire is the best, for a Wizard, Lichdom fits more and for a Sorcerer, Vampirism fits better. Any troughs? IMHO the life as a Lich is not a good life, if living isolated, without being able to taste food, to have pleasure, being just a living decayed corpse...

On the other hand, you have to deal with far fewer teenage girls writing derivative fanfiction about you as a Lich.

SorcererV1ct0r

voidofopinion said:

SorcererV1ct0r said:

My honest opinion, for "Rule by force", Lich is best, for rule with Charisma, vampire is the best, for a Wizard, Lichdom fits more and for a Sorcerer, Vampirism fits better. Any troughs? IMHO the life as a Lich is not a good life, if living isolated, without being able to taste food, to have pleasure, being just a living decayed corpse...

On the other hand, you have to deal with far fewer teenage girls writing derivative fanfiction about you as a Lich.

Yes, you convinced me. Lich > Vampire

jjstraka34

This is slightly off-topic, but I always thought it was weird that Skyrim went for Vampirism over Lichdom as the main dark magic path of that game. There is actually a mod that involves a fairly involved questline to achieve Lichdom in Skyrim called "Undeath", but it is too buggy to be reliable.

Regardless, my favorite quest-type in any CRPG is one that would involve becoming a lich, but other than MM7 and MM9, I don't really know of any.

SorcererV1ct0r

jjstraka34 said:

This is slightly off-topic, but I always thought it was weird that Skyrim went for Vampirism over Lichdom as the main dark magic path of that game. There is actually a mod that involves a fairly involved questline to achieve Lichdom in Skyrim called "Undeath", but it is too buggy to be reliable.

Regardless, my favorite quest-type in any CRPG is one that would involve becoming a lich, but other than MM7 and MM9, I don't really know of any.

Well, since Daggerfall, there are vampirism but not lichdom but daggerall have a lich, Lich have an impressive 120 INT attribute.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Lich

But vampirism on Skyrim is too dumbed down compared to Daggerfall

• +20 to every attribute except Intelligence
  
• +30 to Climbing, Critical Strike, Hand-to-Hand, Jumping, Running, and Stealth
  
• Levitation, Calm Humanoid, and Charm Mortal spells
  
• Immunities to paralysis, disease, and weapons made from iron and steel (only silver "or better" can hurt you)
  
• After becoming a vampire, you will take continuous damage from holy places and sunlight, as well as having to feed. If you fail to feed every day, you will be unable to rest. This is a minor inconvenience, which will prevent resource regeneration.
  

About M&M VII/VIII i honestly think that they are the unique cRPG that i know who allow you to play as a vampire. M&M VII requires that you go follow the "dark side", while on M&M VIII you can have an good purel ight cleric in the same party of an evil Lich and honestly, i found the promotion to Lich very hard, because Lich jars are protected by a lot of Dark resistant/immune creatures. I can't just use Dragon Breath.

deltago

A lich maybe able to conduct operations in secrecy more than a vampire, who would have to have a fresh sources of blood. Enough commoners going missing may actually bring those heroes to the kingdom to investigate.

However, the vampire is able to raise an army of brethren faster by creating more vampires, something a lich cannot do.

However, it is easier to kill a vampire than a lich.

SorcererV1ct0r

deltago said:

A lich maybe able to conduct operations in secrecy more than a vampire, who would have to have a fresh sources of blood. Enough commoners going missing may actually bring those heroes to the kingdom to investigate.

However, the vampire is able to raise an army of brethren faster by creating more vampires, something a lich cannot do.

However, it is easier to kill a vampire than a lich.

I agree but a vampire doesn't need to kill his victim, in place where slavery is allowed, have few slaves and feed a on then without killing then is not impossible. As longs they have one or more CON, they are alive.

Other than that, i agree. An vampire can build an force quickly than a lich but is much easier to kill an vampire;

voidofopinion

Speaking of Elder Scrolls and Liches.

I wrote the first ever transformation system for Morrowind that supplanted the character model with other pieces.

It was used to turn the player into a Lich and the base of which was used for the Werewolf mod before Bethesda all but killed the werewolf mod with Bloodmoon.

LadyRhian

Liches last longer. And after their bodies decay to bones and dust, you become an even more powerful Demilich, Like Acererak in "Tomb of Horrors".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demilich_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

"If a lich exists long enough it may reach a point where it feels it cannot learn any more in its present state and seeks other avenues to attain knowledge. The lich's interest turns away from the physical realm, and its soul voluntarily leaves its undead form and phylactery, using astral projection to travel across other planes of existence. The magics preserving the lich's body against the ravages of time weaken, usually causing the body to gradually deteriorate until only a skull or even a single skeletal hand remains; this advanced form of lich is known as a demilich. Despite its ruined body, a demilich is far from powerless; it is very resistant to most weapons and magic, and if disturbed, the skull will levitate and suck the souls from nearby living creatures."

Kangaax, from BG2 is a Demilich.



Or, considering the gems in Acererak's skull...

jjstraka34

"Tomb of Horrors", along with Moria from Lord of the Rings, is really the basis for any dungeon crawl. It was designed by Gygax specifically to kill the expert party he was DMing for. Having watched many videos on it, I can't fathom how anyone could survive it going in blind without a forgiving DM. Durlag's Tower is a direct descendant of "Tomb of Horrors".

To my understanding, the reason a lich wants immortality in the first place is to study magic in seclusion forever. The Demilich is sort of it's final form. The elaborate dungeons they set up to protect their phylactery are mostly because they don't want their work disturbed.

LadyRhian

@jjstraka34 If anyone is interested, I ran "Tomb of Horrors" here as an RP thread. Only two characters survived at the end in their own bodies.

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/3171/the-roleplaying-challenge-tomb-of-horrors/p1

Final tally: 15 deaths, 1 person teleported naked back to the start.

Kivan and Imoen survived, and Alora ended up inside a gem.

SorcererV1ct0r

LadyRhian said:

Liches last longer. And after their bodies decay to bones and dust, you become an even more powerful Demilich, Like Acererak in "Tomb of Horrors".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demilich_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)

"If a lich exists long enough it may reach a point where it feels it cannot learn any more in its present state and seeks other avenues to attain knowledge. The lich's interest turns away from the physical realm, and its soul voluntarily leaves its undead form and phylactery, using astral projection to travel across other planes of existence. The magics preserving the lich's body against the ravages of time weaken, usually causing the body to gradually deteriorate until only a skull or even a single skeletal hand remains; this advanced form of lich is known as a demilich. Despite its ruined body, a demilich is far from powerless; it is very resistant to most weapons and magic, and if disturbed, the skull will levitate and suck the souls from nearby living creatures."

Kangaax, from BG2 is a Demilich.



Or, considering the gems in Acererak's skull...

Yes, but a minority of Liches manages to reach demilich.

Vampires in other hands have the "vampire lord" template

"The only way to make sure that a vampire lord does not return is to cut its head from its body, burn the body and the head separately, scatter the ashes from the body over running water, immerse the ashes from the head in holy water, and bury the immersed ashes in consecrated ground. However, if the head ashes are ever unearthed and somehow separated from the holy water, dried thoroughly, and then subjected to an unhallow spell, the vampire lord can regenerate in a week if the ashes are placed inside one of its places of rest."

source http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a

jjstraka34

The vampire myth has obvious origins, but does anyone know if the lich has origins PRIOR to D&D?? While the word and archetype exist in the usual influences, Gygax seems to be the first one to throw them together into what it is today.

Edit: this seems to be ground zero:

http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/11/pulp-fantasy-library-sword-of-sorcerer.html?m=1