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Pre-Spellhold.Do we need thieves?If yes,who to replace with imoen?

Jaheira is in the party,but as my romance,she'll stay.
Also if it is any use,the party is around lvl 10-12.
Nalia is arrested and Jan will join my shorty playthrough.

Pre-Spellhold.Do we need thieves?If yes,who to replace with imoen? 5 votes

Keldorn,wielding that holy sword at the fire dragon quest.Seem that he is not needed,because Neera has breach,and Anomen has true seeing.
0%
Anomen,pretty much a very good buffer and decent at support.
0%
Mazzy,not that needed,she will compete for good weapons with Imoen
20%
DJKajuru 1 vote
Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
80%
Permidion_StarkThacoBell_Nightfall_gorgonzola 4 votes
Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.
0%

Comments

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 126
    Yoshimo is designed to be your thief before spellhold and alternatively there is also hexxat.

    Although it would be nice to have an NPC multi warrior/thief available; it is a nice combination, without being too OP. BG1 offers several of them and I miss them in BG2.

    GreenWarlock
  • RidcullyRidcully Member Posts: 69
    Currently doing a run through, to try to cover all quests and should sort of answer this as well.

    Off loaded Yoshimo when out of the dungeon.
    Currently have Hexxat
    Once Hexxat's quests are completed, will probably use Nalia
    When Nalia's quests are completed, will swap for Jan
    Bring back Yoshimo at the end of Ch3

    Rather like Hexxat as a character. Her regeneration and immunity to level drain makes her an ideal target. Have Minsc sitting behind her with the sword of Chaos means he gets regenerated as well. The only thing I don't like about her is the distribution of the thieving stats at the start, although that could be that I made a mistake on my allocation

  • BLANKYBLANKY Member Posts: 14
    Lol I doubt Hexxat would be welcomed in a lawfully aligned group(mostly),still who should I remove?

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    I say Neera, Imoen is also a mage and you really don't need two mages. She will be a lower level though, so bring along some spell scrolls so she can scribe imprtant spells. With the high exp gains from Spellhold on, she won't underleveled for long.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited September 27
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    BLANKY said:

    Keldorn,wielding that holy sword at the fire dragon quest.Seem that he is not needed,because Neera has breach,and Anomen has true seeing.

    on this i can agree, even if he can get the holy sword, that dispel on hit, saving spell slots.
    and dispel magic is not only for breaching, is an aoe spell, so targets also invisible enemies if you can guess where they are, and dispel a lot of protections at the same time. is not party friendly, so same care is needed in use it, but a paladin cast it double than his level, so enemies rarely save against it.
    BLANKY said:

    Anomen,pretty much a very good buffer and decent at support

    a fighter dualed to cleric is much more. he will reach GM, so will have +1.5 APR, and can get 3 pips in DW so an other apr and the use of a flail that gives damage reduction that stacks with his cleric spell that do the same, to tank effectively.
    and as he reaches lev 4 spells has holy power, that gives him the thaco of a same level fighter, and 1 hp/level boost. righteous magic, lev 5, gives an other hp/level, str boost and makes the damage roll maxed, so a weapon that hits 1d6 instead of doing on average 3.5 dmg hits every time with 6 dmg.
    draw upon holy might boost STR, CON (more HP) and DEX (better AC and ranged thac0)
    quite early he will have 25 STR (+7 thac0 mlee and +14 DMG with mlee or sling+enchanted bullet) having the thac0 of a same as his cleric level fighter.
    he can be, and this up to the end of ToB, one of the most damaging fighters, the perfect welder for a flail that is possibly the best weapon of the game, able to tank as he slows the enemies and do huge DMG to them.
    and in the end he will have a lot of spells, a pretty competent cleric and one of the best fighters at once.
    much more than buffer and decent support.
    BLANKY said:

    Mazzy,not that needed,she will compete for good weapons with Imoen

    nope, she will use at best weapons that make her deadly while imoen greatly under use.
    imoen is a really powerful mage, less powerful than neera but much more predictable, with some basic traps and locks capability. she is not a fighter unless you use tensor transformation spell, with bow she will miss a lot and with a cheap STR spell and enchanted bullets she do more damage with sling. and please don't send her in mlee, the only thing she can do near the enemy is tank protected by stoneskin and PFMW, if your fighters are not able to tank, but the mlee weapon is not relevant at all as against such enemies she will not hit anyway.
    BLANKY said:

    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.

    are both powerful mages. neera can be a lot more powerful at high levels, as she can use a PI to cast, and this avoids potential catastrophe on some surges that affect the caster, so she can rule using the dwehomers, that at the cost of a lev 1 spell and without the rule of 1 spell/round let you cast each spell she knows, even the ones of levels she can not cast in the regular way. she is also quite risky to use as party buffer, you cast a speed spell on your fighter and a fireball pops out instead, or you block or confuse him...
    she has also 1 more spell /level. and can make your gold vanish with a surge so keep the valuable loot and gems in some container and sell them only when you need money to buy or pay something... :)

    i feel that playing a wild mage needs some finesse and knowledge, or a lot of reloads. and even if not playing no reload to have too much of them kills the purpose to use a wild mage, if you use a wild mage you have to deal with wild surges and reload only when a really bad one ***** the party completely.
    BLANKY said:

    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    as i told before a freaking powerful archmage in the end, with some basic traps and locks capability that boosted with items ( i can spoil you what and where they are if you need) and some potions can deal with almost any trap and lack in the game).
    if you want a toon able to be a mage and thief go for jan, he is the right one, will never match imoen magic power but he is a real thief and can backstab, set traps, use thief HLA, dispel illusions (free true sight at will).

    about soa pre spellhood you can run without a thief as long as you abuse your meta knowledge or use some walktrought that lists all the trap locations. you can beat the whole game without a thief, there was an old school of thinking in which the thief was not useful and powergamers did not use him. knock spell open locks and mirror image or some item tank traps. as long as you know where them are.

    and nalia arrested with false evidence and your lawfully aligned group does not try to free her? you don't have to assault the town's prison, but is a really easy quest to do.

    sadly i can not vote if you don't tell us the party composition.
    we can choose between 5 really powerful and useful characters, each one with his perks, each one fantastic if used at the best of his potential (ie don't count on imoen's fighting power and don't use anomen mlee without buffing him in the right way unless you are clearing minor foe).
    each of them is a great help for a party, which one is better depends completely on party composition.

    BLANKY
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited September 27
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    BLANKY said:


    If yes,who to replace with imoen?

    then
    BLANKY said:


    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    how can you replace imoen with imoen? :D ?
    so i take it as "Nalia,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief."
    and this is my vote, cause at low levels neera is quite unpredictable with her surges, cause nalia is almost the photocopy of imoen, so the perfect substitute, with less thieving skills, but more than enough to do 99% of what imoen does assuming that both use the thieving items and some basic spells where boosted thieving skills are not enough (please don't stack more than 1 of each thieving potion at the same time :) ), cause i think that you, player with metaknowledge can beat the game without a thief, but your party can not do it, cause i really wish that you rescue nalia, even if you decide to drop her, she was so friendly to you even if a little naive with her robin hood attitude that she don't deserve to be in prison for the plot of an arrogant noble family that wants to steal her castle and land, no lawful party can tollerate it.

    as soon as you confirm that the imoen choice is valid for picking nalia and then swapping to imoen i will vote in the poll.

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 127
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    Depends on your main character, Neera will be a good Imoen substitute since you already have Jan for thievery. I find Nalia annoying but she can do the job. Breach is not a magic pill though it can make life easier and Keldorn can do everything else. If Holy Avenger is part of the plan, I am not sure how much use can be gotten out of it before dropping him for Imoen.

    A thief is not needed in the game but you have Jan so go for what you want.

    ThacoBell
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 219
    I like mage/thieves a lot - they have a broad range of skills, and I couldn't imagine playing the game without a thief anyway. Jan is the best of the three in the game IMO as his thief skills keep improving, so you don't need magic items to increase his stats, but often I find it hard to choose between them. Nalia's side quests are more interesting than Jan's though.

    Once I took all three (Nalia, Jan and Imoen) and really enjoyed it, partly because I find their characters pleasant and they interact with each other well, although my party was a bit mage heavy :) - I needed to find a lot of scrolls to use between them and this is quite difficult at higher levels :)

    But if you really want to take Imoen rather than Jan (most of my parties have both because they're both decent), I'd remove Neera from your choices as her skills are most similar to Imoen's (unless you meant to put Nalia on your list?).

    ThacoBell
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,025
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    When in doubt get rid of Neera.

    borntodie
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416
    My favorite thief is Jan, but I usually end up going with Yoshimo due to the story line.

  • BLANKYBLANKY Member Posts: 14

    BLANKY said:


    If yes,who to replace with imoen?

    then
    BLANKY said:


    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    how can you replace imoen with imoen? :D ?
    so i take it as "Nalia,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief."
    and this is my vote, cause at low levels neera is quite unpredictable with her surges, cause nalia is almost the photocopy of imoen, so the perfect substitute, with less thieving skills, but more than enough to do 99% of what imoen does assuming that both use the thieving items and some basic spells where boosted thieving skills are not enough (please don't stack more than 1 of each thieving potion at the same time :) ), cause i think that you, player with metaknowledge can beat the game without a thief, but your party can not do it, cause i really wish that you rescue nalia, even if you decide to drop her, she was so friendly to you even if a little naive with her robin hood attitude that she don't deserve to be in prison for the plot of an arrogant noble family that wants to steal her castle and land, no lawful party can tollerate it.

    as soon as you confirm that the imoen choice is valid for picking nalia and then swapping to imoen i will vote in the poll.

    Yes nalia,then hahaha did not see that

  • BLANKYBLANKY Member Posts: 14

    BLANKY said:

    Keldorn,wielding that holy sword at the fire dragon quest.Seem that he is not needed,because Neera has breach,and Anomen has true seeing.

    on this i can agree, even if he can get the holy sword, that dispel on hit, saving spell slots.
    and dispel magic is not only for breaching, is an aoe spell, so targets also invisible enemies if you can guess where they are, and dispel a lot of protections at the same time. is not party friendly, so same care is needed in use it, but a paladin cast it double than his level, so enemies rarely save against it.
    BLANKY said:

    Anomen,pretty much a very good buffer and decent at support

    a fighter dualed to cleric is much more. he will reach GM, so will have +1.5 APR, and can get 3 pips in DW so an other apr and the use of a flail that gives damage reduction that stacks with his cleric spell that do the same, to tank effectively.
    and as he reaches lev 4 spells has holy power, that gives him the thaco of a same level fighter, and 1 hp/level boost. righteous magic, lev 5, gives an other hp/level, str boost and makes the damage roll maxed, so a weapon that hits 1d6 instead of doing on average 3.5 dmg hits every time with 6 dmg.
    draw upon holy might boost STR, CON (more HP) and DEX (better AC and ranged thac0)
    quite early he will have 25 STR (+7 thac0 mlee and +14 DMG with mlee or sling+enchanted bullet) having the thac0 of a same as his cleric level fighter.
    he can be, and this up to the end of ToB, one of the most damaging fighters, the perfect welder for a flail that is possibly the best weapon of the game, able to tank as he slows the enemies and do huge DMG to them.
    and in the end he will have a lot of spells, a pretty competent cleric and one of the best fighters at once.
    much more than buffer and decent support.
    BLANKY said:

    Mazzy,not that needed,she will compete for good weapons with Imoen

    nope, she will use at best weapons that make her deadly while imoen greatly under use.
    imoen is a really powerful mage, less powerful than neera but much more predictable, with some basic traps and locks capability. she is not a fighter unless you use tensor transformation spell, with bow she will miss a lot and with a cheap STR spell and enchanted bullets she do more damage with sling. and please don't send her in mlee, the only thing she can do near the enemy is tank protected by stoneskin and PFMW, if your fighters are not able to tank, but the mlee weapon is not relevant at all as against such enemies she will not hit anyway.
    BLANKY said:

    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.

    are both powerful mages. neera can be a lot more powerful at high levels, as she can use a PI to cast, and this avoids potential catastrophe on some surges that affect the caster, so she can rule using the dwehomers, that at the cost of a lev 1 spell and without the rule of 1 spell/round let you cast each spell she knows, even the ones of levels she can not cast in the regular way. she is also quite risky to use as party buffer, you cast a speed spell on your fighter and a fireball pops out instead, or you block or confuse him...
    she has also 1 more spell /level. and can make your gold vanish with a surge so keep the valuable loot and gems in some container and sell them only when you need money to buy or pay something... :)

    i feel that playing a wild mage needs some finesse and knowledge, or a lot of reloads. and even if not playing no reload to have too much of them kills the purpose to use a wild mage, if you use a wild mage you have to deal with wild surges and reload only when a really bad one ***** the party completely.
    BLANKY said:

    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    as i told before a freaking powerful archmage in the end, with some basic traps and locks capability that boosted with items ( i can spoil you what and where they are if you need) and some potions can deal with almost any trap and lack in the game).
    if you want a toon able to be a mage and thief go for jan, he is the right one, will never match imoen magic power but he is a real thief and can backstab, set traps, use thief HLA, dispel illusions (free true sight at will).

    about soa pre spellhood you can run without a thief as long as you abuse your meta knowledge or use some walktrought that lists all the trap locations. you can beat the whole game without a thief, there was an old school of thinking in which the thief was not useful and powergamers did not use him. knock spell open locks and mirror image or some item tank traps. as long as you know where them are.

    and nalia arrested with false evidence and your lawfully aligned group does not try to free her? you don't have to assault the town's prison, but is a really easy quest to do.

    sadly i can not vote if you don't tell us the party composition.
    we can choose between 5 really powerful and useful characters, each one with his perks, each one fantastic if used at the best of his potential (ie don't count on imoen's fighting power and don't use anomen mlee without buffing him in the right way unless you are clearing minor foe).
    each of them is a great help for a party, which one is better depends completely on party composition.

    BLANKY said:

    Keldorn,wielding that holy sword at the fire dragon quest.Seem that he is not needed,because Neera has breach,and Anomen has true seeing.

    on this i can agree, even if he can get the holy sword, that dispel on hit, saving spell slots.
    and dispel magic is not only for breaching, is an aoe spell, so targets also invisible enemies if you can guess where they are, and dispel a lot of protections at the same time. is not party friendly, so same care is needed in use it, but a paladin cast it double than his level, so enemies rarely save against it.
    BLANKY said:

    Anomen,pretty much a very good buffer and decent at support

    a fighter dualed to cleric is much more. he will reach GM, so will have +1.5 APR, and can get 3 pips in DW so an other apr and the use of a flail that gives damage reduction that stacks with his cleric spell that do the same, to tank effectively.
    and as he reaches lev 4 spells has holy power, that gives him the thaco of a same level fighter, and 1 hp/level boost. righteous magic, lev 5, gives an other hp/level, str boost and makes the damage roll maxed, so a weapon that hits 1d6 instead of doing on average 3.5 dmg hits every time with 6 dmg.
    draw upon holy might boost STR, CON (more HP) and DEX (better AC and ranged thac0)
    quite early he will have 25 STR (+7 thac0 mlee and +14 DMG with mlee or sling+enchanted bullet) having the thac0 of a same as his cleric level fighter.
    he can be, and this up to the end of ToB, one of the most damaging fighters, the perfect welder for a flail that is possibly the best weapon of the game, able to tank as he slows the enemies and do huge DMG to them.
    and in the end he will have a lot of spells, a pretty competent cleric and one of the best fighters at once.
    much more than buffer and decent support.
    BLANKY said:

    Mazzy,not that needed,she will compete for good weapons with Imoen

    nope, she will use at best weapons that make her deadly while imoen greatly under use.
    imoen is a really powerful mage, less powerful than neera but much more predictable, with some basic traps and locks capability. she is not a fighter unless you use tensor transformation spell, with bow she will miss a lot and with a cheap STR spell and enchanted bullets she do more damage with sling. and please don't send her in mlee, the only thing she can do near the enemy is tank protected by stoneskin and PFMW, if your fighters are not able to tank, but the mlee weapon is not relevant at all as against such enemies she will not hit anyway.
    BLANKY said:

    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.

    are both powerful mages. neera can be a lot more powerful at high levels, as she can use a PI to cast, and this avoids potential catastrophe on some surges that affect the caster, so she can rule using the dwehomers, that at the cost of a lev 1 spell and without the rule of 1 spell/round let you cast each spell she knows, even the ones of levels she can not cast in the regular way. she is also quite risky to use as party buffer, you cast a speed spell on your fighter and a fireball pops out instead, or you block or confuse him...
    she has also 1 more spell /level. and can make your gold vanish with a surge so keep the valuable loot and gems in some container and sell them only when you need money to buy or pay something... :)

    i feel that playing a wild mage needs some finesse and knowledge, or a lot of reloads. and even if not playing no reload to have too much of them kills the purpose to use a wild mage, if you use a wild mage you have to deal with wild surges and reload only when a really bad one ***** the party completely.
    BLANKY said:

    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    as i told before a freaking powerful archmage in the end, with some basic traps and locks capability that boosted with items ( i can spoil you what and where they are if you need) and some potions can deal with almost any trap and lack in the game).
    if you want a toon able to be a mage and thief go for jan, he is the right one, will never match imoen magic power but he is a real thief and can backstab, set traps, use thief HLA, dispel illusions (free true sight at will).

    about soa pre spellhood you can run without a thief as long as you abuse your meta knowledge or use some walktrought that lists all the trap locations. you can beat the whole game without a thief, there was an old school of thinking in which the thief was not useful and powergamers did not use him. knock spell open locks and mirror image or some item tank traps. as long as you know where them are.

    and nalia arrested with false evidence and your lawfully aligned group does not try to free her? you don't have to assault the town's prison, but is a really easy quest to do.

    sadly i can not vote if you don't tell us the party composition.
    we can choose between 5 really powerful and useful characters, each one with his perks, each one fantastic if used at the best of his potential (ie don't count on imoen's fighting power and don't use anomen mlee without buffing him in the right way unless you are clearing minor foe).
    each of them is a great help for a party, which one is better depends completely on party composition.

    BLANKY said:

    Keldorn,wielding that holy sword at the fire dragon quest.Seem that he is not needed,because Neera has breach,and Anomen has true seeing.

    on this i can agree, even if he can get the holy sword, that dispel on hit, saving spell slots.
    and dispel magic is not only for breaching, is an aoe spell, so targets also invisible enemies if you can guess where they are, and dispel a lot of protections at the same time. is not party friendly, so same care is needed in use it, but a paladin cast it double than his level, so enemies rarely save against it.
    BLANKY said:

    Anomen,pretty much a very good buffer and decent at support

    a fighter dualed to cleric is much more. he will reach GM, so will have +1.5 APR, and can get 3 pips in DW so an other apr and the use of a flail that gives damage reduction that stacks with his cleric spell that do the same, to tank effectively.
    and as he reaches lev 4 spells has holy power, that gives him the thaco of a same level fighter, and 1 hp/level boost. righteous magic, lev 5, gives an other hp/level, str boost and makes the damage roll maxed, so a weapon that hits 1d6 instead of doing on average 3.5 dmg hits every time with 6 dmg.
    draw upon holy might boost STR, CON (more HP) and DEX (better AC and ranged thac0)
    quite early he will have 25 STR (+7 thac0 mlee and +14 DMG with mlee or sling+enchanted bullet) having the thac0 of a same as his cleric level fighter.
    he can be, and this up to the end of ToB, one of the most damaging fighters, the perfect welder for a flail that is possibly the best weapon of the game, able to tank as he slows the enemies and do huge DMG to them.
    and in the end he will have a lot of spells, a pretty competent cleric and one of the best fighters at once.
    much more than buffer and decent support.
    BLANKY said:

    Mazzy,not that needed,she will compete for good weapons with Imoen

    nope, she will use at best weapons that make her deadly while imoen greatly under use.
    imoen is a really powerful mage, less powerful than neera but much more predictable, with some basic traps and locks capability. she is not a fighter unless you use tensor transformation spell, with bow she will miss a lot and with a cheap STR spell and enchanted bullets she do more damage with sling. and please don't send her in mlee, the only thing she can do near the enemy is tank protected by stoneskin and PFMW, if your fighters are not able to tank, but the mlee weapon is not relevant at all as against such enemies she will not hit anyway.
    BLANKY said:

    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.

    are both powerful mages. neera can be a lot more powerful at high levels, as she can use a PI to cast, and this avoids potential catastrophe on some surges that affect the caster, so she can rule using the dwehomers, that at the cost of a lev 1 spell and without the rule of 1 spell/round let you cast each spell she knows, even the ones of levels she can not cast in the regular way. she is also quite risky to use as party buffer, you cast a speed spell on your fighter and a fireball pops out instead, or you block or confuse him...
    she has also 1 more spell /level. and can make your gold vanish with a surge so keep the valuable loot and gems in some container and sell them only when you need money to buy or pay something... :)

    i feel that playing a wild mage needs some finesse and knowledge, or a lot of reloads. and even if not playing no reload to have too much of them kills the purpose to use a wild mage, if you use a wild mage you have to deal with wild surges and reload only when a really bad one ***** the party completely.
    BLANKY said:

    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    as i told before a freaking powerful archmage in the end, with some basic traps and locks capability that boosted with items ( i can spoil you what and where they are if you need) and some potions can deal with almost any trap and lack in the game).
    if you want a toon able to be a mage and thief go for jan, he is the right one, will never match imoen magic power but he is a real thief and can backstab, set traps, use thief HLA, dispel illusions (free true sight at will).

    about soa pre spellhood you can run without a thief as long as you abuse your meta knowledge or use some walktrought that lists all the trap locations. you can beat the whole game without a thief, there was an old school of thinking in which the thief was not useful and powergamers did not use him. knock spell open locks and mirror image or some item tank traps. as long as you know where them are.

    and nalia arrested with false evidence and your lawfully aligned group does not try to free her? you don't have to assault the town's prison, but is a really easy quest to do.

    sadly i can not vote if you don't tell us the party composition.
    we can choose between 5 really powerful and useful characters, each one with his perks, each one fantastic if used at the best of his potential (ie don't count on imoen's fighting power and don't use anomen mlee without buffing him in the right way unless you are clearing minor foe).
    each of them is a great help for a party, which one is better depends completely on party composition.

    BLANKY said:

    Keldorn,wielding that holy sword at the fire dragon quest.Seem that he is not needed,because Neera has breach,and Anomen has true seeing.

    on this i can agree, even if he can get the holy sword, that dispel on hit, saving spell slots.
    and dispel magic is not only for breaching, is an aoe spell, so targets also invisible enemies if you can guess where they are, and dispel a lot of protections at the same time. is not party friendly, so same care is needed in use it, but a paladin cast it double than his level, so enemies rarely save against it.
    BLANKY said:

    Anomen,pretty much a very good buffer and decent at support

    a fighter dualed to cleric is much more. he will reach GM, so will have +1.5 APR, and can get 3 pips in DW so an other apr and the use of a flail that gives damage reduction that stacks with his cleric spell that do the same, to tank effectively.
    and as he reaches lev 4 spells has holy power, that gives him the thaco of a same level fighter, and 1 hp/level boost. righteous magic, lev 5, gives an other hp/level, str boost and makes the damage roll maxed, so a weapon that hits 1d6 instead of doing on average 3.5 dmg hits every time with 6 dmg.
    draw upon holy might boost STR, CON (more HP) and DEX (better AC and ranged thac0)
    quite early he will have 25 STR (+7 thac0 mlee and +14 DMG with mlee or sling+enchanted bullet) having the thac0 of a same as his cleric level fighter.
    he can be, and this up to the end of ToB, one of the most damaging fighters, the perfect welder for a flail that is possibly the best weapon of the game, able to tank as he slows the enemies and do huge DMG to them.
    and in the end he will have a lot of spells, a pretty competent cleric and one of the best fighters at once.
    much more than buffer and decent support.
    BLANKY said:

    Mazzy,not that needed,she will compete for good weapons with Imoen

    nope, she will use at best weapons that make her deadly while imoen greatly under use.
    imoen is a really powerful mage, less powerful than neera but much more predictable, with some basic traps and locks capability. she is not a fighter unless you use tensor transformation spell, with bow she will miss a lot and with a cheap STR spell and enchanted bullets she do more damage with sling. and please don't send her in mlee, the only thing she can do near the enemy is tank protected by stoneskin and PFMW, if your fighters are not able to tank, but the mlee weapon is not relevant at all as against such enemies she will not hit anyway.
    BLANKY said:

    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.

    are both powerful mages. neera can be a lot more powerful at high levels, as she can use a PI to cast, and this avoids potential catastrophe on some surges that affect the caster, so she can rule using the dwehomers, that at the cost of a lev 1 spell and without the rule of 1 spell/round let you cast each spell she knows, even the ones of levels she can not cast in the regular way. she is also quite risky to use as party buffer, you cast a speed spell on your fighter and a fireball pops out instead, or you block or confuse him...
    she has also 1 more spell /level. and can make your gold vanish with a surge so keep the valuable loot and gems in some container and sell them only when you need money to buy or pay something... :)

    i feel that playing a wild mage needs some finesse and knowledge, or a lot of reloads. and even if not playing no reload to have too much of them kills the purpose to use a wild mage, if you use a wild mage you have to deal with wild surges and reload only when a really bad one ***** the party completely.
    BLANKY said:

    Imoen,pretty much a decent or good character,able to be a mage and thief.

    as i told before a freaking powerful archmage in the end, with some basic traps and locks capability that boosted with items ( i can spoil you what and where they are if you need) and some potions can deal with almost any trap and lack in the game).
    if you want a toon able to be a mage and thief go for jan, he is the right one, will never match imoen magic power but he is a real thief and can backstab, set traps, use thief HLA, dispel illusions (free true sight at will).

    about soa pre spellhood you can run without a thief as long as you abuse your meta knowledge or use some walktrought that lists all the trap locations. you can beat the whole game without a thief, there was an old school of thinking in which the thief was not useful and powergamers did not use him. knock spell open locks and mirror image or some item tank traps. as long as you know where them are.

    and nalia arrested with false evidence and your lawfully aligned group does not try to free her? you don't have to assault the town's prison, but is a really easy quest to do.

    sadly i can not vote if you don't tell us the party composition.
    we can choose between 5 really powerful and useful characters, each one with his perks, each one fantastic if used at the best of his potential (ie don't count on imoen's fighting power and don't use anomen mlee without buffing him in the right way unless you are clearing minor foe).
    each of them is a great help for a party, which one is better depends completely on party composition.

    Party composition?You mean who's in party?the ones listed above,also I searched EVERYWHERE at the prison at gov district.I read in the wiki thatsome dude will approach me...so yeah.

    gorgonzola
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,932


    how can you replace imoen with imoen? :D ?



    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    @BLANKY wow you just broke the textwall world record quoting me trice, i want some credits :D

    anyway i misunderstood your pool purpose, i am not a native english speaker and sometimes it happens.
    or maybe i am just dumb sometimes... :D
    so your party is charname (unknown class), jaheira (romance), and the ones listed in the pool, minus imoen that can or can not replace one of them. right?

    what i like about your party is how is caster heavy, not heavy like my typical ones, but heavy, still retaining good mlee capability.
    i don't know charname class,
    i know for sure that he is not a thief and i assume that is not a pally to avoid conflicts with keldorn about the holy avenger, so i don't know if he is an arcane caster like a F/M or bard.
    and this is relevant cause imo a backup caster makes things safer, in the case the main one is incapacitated in a battle. but in your party if both keldorn and anomen remain is not a real problem as they can free him with divine spells like remove paralysis or the powerful pally's dispel used in a defensive way.


    i would say that after spellhood there is a possible not needed redundancy between neera and imoen.
    and also there is only a robe of vecna, the item that makes the high level mages so amazing as they can cast PI and PI can cast IA and unleash the whole spell book.
    i would also probably drop mazzi, awesome fighter and her ranged capability is really useful to soften approaching enemies or help to kill fast a distant one that is threatening a party memeber. but she is not caster so she s**** for my standard. but this is my own playstyle.
    and i had both neera and imoen in the same party before, i am having them also in one of the runs i am playing now (i play original with the old school mods and EE with the new ones or vanilla), there are ways to make them both useful even with only a robe (CC, memorize different spells and give the robe to the one that has the right ones for the battle).
    but the redundancy is still there, while there can be not a redundancy in fighters, for them the more the better is always true.


    so keep neera and have a mage of higher level, with the spell bonus of the wild mage, with the insane PI and dwehomer capability, but risky, and very risky if used also to buff the party members (fireball instead of improved haste and so on)?
    or keep imoen, that is under leveled if you don't rush to spellhood, and in a party of 6 is slow to catch up, but is 100% reliable, and has basic thieving capability in a party that other way completely lack of them?
    i love neera, both for her banters and soa quest, the tob one seems to me not so challenging, and wild mage possibly is the most broken class, even more op than sorcerer.

    but i like to have reliability in my toons, and i love to have a thief in my party instead of abusing of my knowledge of the game to deal with traps (i know where each one is, but i detect them in some places or containers and in others i don't detect as there is no trap only cause i have a thief in the party that could do it, is only RL time saving).

    so i would:
    1. rescue nalia and use her as pre spellhhod thief
    2. rush the neera soa quest. at relatively low levels there is not redundancy with 2 mages.
    3. drop neera and go to spellhood early as i can.
    4. as soon as i have imoen in the party drop everyone but the romance and her and let her memorize all the spells she can, both she and jah (multi) will benefit of that. i never erase and learn back spells to get xp, i find it lame and prefer to fight multiple time dragons turning them to stone, back to flash, healing them and repeating, i feel that in that case the xp is earned, not stolen, but many do it and also you can, bring many scroll cases well filled to spellhood in the case.
    5. take back the rest of the party and take that party from there on.


    this way redundancy is avoided, thieving capabilities are retained trough all the game (take joshi to go to the island), imoen low level problem is mitigated. and drop neera is my vote to the pool.

    oooops... an other text wall! sorry :) spoilers added to make it less annoying.

    BLANKYBlackraven
  • sorcerinsorcerin Member Posts: 58
    Yoshimo....It's almost like the developers intended you to replace Yoshimo with Imoen...

    ThacoBellBorek
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    Neera,she might be crucial as a breacher,but imoen can do both thieving and magic.
    i wonder if is possible to have both of them, possibly it is so.
    if you drop joshi before going to the asylum there is no RP reason why he must die, the geas is still active, but he did all he could to obey to it, is not his fault if you drop him. he has to betray you and bring you to irenicus but there is no timeline in it.
    so instead of dropping him and letting him go to the coronet have him imprisoned by kangax.
    then go to spellhood and the alternative route is followed, someone other poison your food on the ship, and he will not appear in the fight against irenicus so you don't have to kill him. then when you return to the coronet, the first time you step in, the geas kicks in and he dies, with no reason as the geas would compel him to try to be in your party again to bring him to irenicus, the fact that the mage had already stolen your divine essence has nothing to do with the geas even if it was created for that irenicus purpose.is possible, but has to be tested, and it mean to play a large part of the game, at least island, asylum and underdark, that whit this trick the script that kills him does not work, something like the familiar thick to bring drow equipment to the light without having it destroyed. the game treats imprisonment in a way similar to death, ie you get killing XP if you imprison someone, and possibly the check is only in the coronet.
    maybe one day i will do a cntl K speed run, giving me money with console, so to test it can be much simpler, you can pay aran right after the first dungeon, have joshi imprisoned, rush trough the chapters ad try to free joshi from imprisonment at various points of the game to find the sweet spot that bypass the check. then before transitioning to tob he must be imprisoned again by the wk demilich if there is some other checkpoint. for sure there is a checkpoint for drow items in tob opening area, so is possible that also for joshi there is something. or may be not, cause this exploit is more unlikely to happen than the familiar one.

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