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Gnome C/I or Half-Elven C/R for a core canon party

I'm considering one of the two for a run with Jah, Minsc, and Yoshi->Imoen (and eventually adding Sarevok). Other companions will be only for their quest. Otherwise, it's just this group. I'll have Jah set up to be my tank, Minsc my DPS, Imoen (when I get her back) on debuffing and other magery. On one hand, I don't really need another mage. On the other hand, I also don't need another tank/dps (especially once I get Sarevok). So, I'm not sure which will add the most utility and benefit to this party. Looking for input. Thanks!

Gnome C/I or Half-Elven C/R for a core canon party 7 votes

Gnome Cleric/Illusionist
57%
recklessheartThacoBellDreadKhan_Nightfall_ 4 votes
Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
42%
karnor00StummvonBordwehrborntodie 3 votes

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    Gnome Cleric/Illusionist
    Elves stink.

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 127
    Gnome Cleric/Illusionist
    Cleric/Ranger is kind of subpar now, Berserker > Cleric dual would more than likely be better. Cleric/Illusionist is one of the strongest character combinations and can do all the magework needed until you get Imoen back.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416

    Cleric/Ranger is kind of subpar now, Berserker > Cleric dual would more than likely be better. Cleric/Illusionist is one of the strongest character combinations and can do all the magework needed until you get Imoen back.

    I'm less concerned with raw power, and more concerned with team synergy. Also, I'm playing the GoG version, so I have all the druid spells, FWIW.

  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 219
    I can't decide between them - they're both good, although yes you might need some mage spells before Imoen comes back...but it's nice to have all the priest spells available to one character in a C/R...

    Half-elf C/M is also a decent option - I'm using Aerie in my party at the moment and am really impressed at her versatility.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 126
    edited September 27
    Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
    ThacoBell said:

    Elves stink.

    On the contrary, you absolutely must pick the tree-hugger option for some hot steamy half-elf action with Jaheira. A gnome would never win her love. Sadness!

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,690
    Gnome Cleric/Illusionist
    borntodie said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Elves stink.

    On the contrary, you absolutely must pick the tree-hugger option for some hot steamy half-elf action with Jaheira. A gnome would never win her love. Sadness!
    There are mods for that.

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416
    borntodie said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Elves stink.

    On the contrary, you absolutely must pick the tree-hugger option for some hot steamy half-elf action with Jaheira. A gnome would never win her love. Sadness!
    tbh, I'd probably use Shadowkeeper to change the race to halfling anyway. I really don't like elves. :smiley:

    ThacoBell
  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 126
    Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
    Ok.. will you shadowkeeper Jaheira into a halfling too? :|

  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416
    borntodie said:

    Ok.. will you shadowkeeper Jaheira into a halfling too? :|

    That's actually a good idea. However, I'll leave her as is. As far as elves go, she's one of the good ones.

    ThacoBell
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416
    edited September 28
    But back to the topic at hand, I'm still on the fence (and the 50/50 split on the poll isn't helping :smiley: ).

    With the C/R, I can have him tanking with flails and maces (twf or sword and board when needed), minsc with axes and swords, and jah in the second line with staves and spears. This pretty much covers all the good weapons in the game. However, I'm not sure how wise it is making GW the point/tank as once he dies it's game over.

    The flip side is the C/I. I've been playing one through the dungeon, but (even though I have a million spells), I kinda spend a lot of time just hanging out. Minsc is chopping up trash mobs faster than I can cast command: die, so I really only need magic for tougher battles.

    I figure the mage would be helpful so I have some magic to get through until I get imoen back, but with the C/R, we can probably just muscle through everything anyway. I'm also a little tempted to trade Yoshi for Jan, then grab the C/R, but I feel like Yoshi is too integral to the story line to park him.

  • borntodieborntodie Member Posts: 126
    Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
    Game play wise, either choice would work out just fine. Both are solid and easily good enough to win the game.

    You ditched your last character because of roleplay factors. So if you want to continue all the way to the end, think about those too. Which of those two class combinations do you find the most attractive conceptually? What sounds the most exciting to you? What stronghold sounds the most fun / fitting? No vote can give you the right answers to that.

    StummvonBordwehrgorgonzolaThacoBell
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416
    borntodie said:

    You ditched your last character because of roleplay factors. So if you want to continue all the way to the end, think about those too. Which of those two class combinations do you find the most attractive conceptually? What sounds the most exciting to you? What stronghold sounds the most fun / fitting? No vote can give you the right answers to that.

    Fair point, and that's largely why I'm looking into these two options. I think they both are pretty neck and neck conceptually. On one hand, I see the C/I being better fit with having been raised in CK. On the other hand, putting a C/R in a party with a F/D and Ranger also plays to a theme more so than the C/I.

    Stronghold-wise, I like them both and probably equally. Aside from the bard stronghold (which has the unfortunate requirement of being a bard), these are my two favorite strongholds.

    Even in terms of how they fit into a party, they both are pretty tied. Minsc and a C/R can hold the front line with DW while Jah is behind with a 2hander (using reach). Or, Jah can draw aggro and tank with a 1h and shield, minsc can come in to DPS and the C/I can play controller when needed. I think the former has a significantly higher damage output, and the latter has more battlefield control.

    I would feel like the C/R is more "active" being the pointman of the group, leader, and party talker. But, her is also the first to take a hit, and likely the first to die. If Jah goes down as tank with my C/I, we can keep fighting, possibly win, and she can be raised. If the C/R goes down....power word: reload.

    I think what makes the decision so hard is how close they are in value.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited September 28
    i fail to understand the concept of tank and dps dealer for fighter classes. almost every fighter can do both, even if the ones with few hp need to be cautious.
    against a single powerful enemy (dragon) it does not work as the wing buffet throws away the tank, against multiple enemies to use battlefield control is the key, you must decide which enemy attacks each party member with right party positioning, you must retreat the fighters that are on low hp to heal them, and someone else should draw the attention of the enemy(ies) that are going to kill the fighter in peril and tank himself. every fighter should, and can, switch to tank mode or dps dealer mode, as the situation changes.
    dynamic battlefield control and versatility is the key, fixed roles under power the party and originate problems. boost AC the more that you can but a fighter is not a blade that can easily go to the lowest possible AC to make his stoneskins last forever and has PFMW and SI abjuration on top, if too many enemies or a powerful one focus on a single fighter he will die fast.

    assuming C/R with all the druid spells you will have 2 toons with iron skin potential, and you want to take one of them in the back? why? all 3 must tank imo, with sword and shield when needed, or deal damage DW or using powerful 2H weapons. they must have also some good ranged capability to continue to deal damage as they retreat to heal.

    about the C/I what happens in the opening dungeon is not relevant at all, C/I starts to shine later and is really interesting and fun to play, powerful and utterly versatile as at medium/high level can turn himself in an awesome front line tank/damage dealer on top of his arcane and divine power, that he can merge in sequencers or at high levels spam with PI using IA. at such low level a C/I can solo the dungeon, but slowly, and command on a foe that minsk can easily kill is only a wasted spell, something that buffs the party like bless, protection from evil, chant, strength of one, miscast magic, haste, glitterdust, strength (long lasting, jaheira should receive one of those each morning for breakfast and a second in the afternoon until she gets str enhancing items), web are way better choices.

    every class is good, multiclasses are even better, but only if you are accustomed to them, and you use them in synergy with the rest of the party. rarely a C/I will be the one with more kills, but he can be the real game changer for the party.

    Blackraven
  • KnellerKneller Member Posts: 416

    i fail to understand the concept of tank and dps dealer for fighter classes. almost every fighter can do both, even if the ones with few hp need to be cautious.

    I think in this case, Jah makes the better tank because even though her strength isn't the greatest, she has better Dex and a sword and board combo can work pretty well with her. As for Minsc, he's built to DW (high strength and free pips), so a shield would be a waste (as well as having lower dex). You can build either character for either role, but Jah makes a better tank than DPS and vice versa for Minsc. Additionally, Jah makes a better tank than Minsc and Minsc makes a better DPS than Jah.

    I did ultimate decide on the C/I. I think what it brings to the table/party is more unique than what a C/R would bring. A C/R could be built to be both a better tank and DPSer than either, but really, the group would just end up buffing and brute forcing their way through the game. I expect the C/I to be more interesting.

    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited September 28
    @Kneller
    i suspect you failed to grasp my point.
    jaheira has about the same str of minsc as soon as your party mage can cast lev 2 spells, the one that give her 18.50 str lasts very long, lacks the pips in DW that a ranger get for free, but is only an early game problem if you want her to dw successfully. at the beginning of soa is 2 pips away from dw the +3 club you find in trademeet and belm and other 2 to dw boomerang dagger and belm, for a +2 apr bonus. 3 pips in dw are welcome but not really needed for a fighter.
    and minsc lack of dex, but has more hp, you also find some gloves that can help him.
    only ironskins are a real change in the game.

    my point is that each one is only marginally better than the other, with the right gear, proficiency choice and long lasting buffs, but no one of them is the perfect tank, that can tank forever no matter how many enemies focus on him. and giving to a single toon the tank role mean exactly to have all the enemies focusing on him. each one is only marginally better in one of the 2 tasks, but if they alternate in the tasks then magically 1+1=3. depending on the battle jah can begin to tank and minsk can take her place when she is low on health and retreats to heal. or they can both tank while focusing their attention on the strongest enemy then, killed it, they can switch to dps dealers and clear the rest or the one with more HP left can continue to tank as the other becomes the damage dealer.
    if you fight goblins in the irenicus dungeon there is no difference, if you want to fight on insane and fight early groups like the one in the temple sewers, the one in the inn in the promenade or maybe the dragons the limits of the fixed role way are self evident.

    and you are certainly aware of the problem as you told "However, I'm not sure how wise it is making GW the point/tank as once he dies it's game over"...
    the point/tank dies cause has no backup, build your fighters in a way that each one can be good at both the roles and you have backup when is needed, maximum dps when offense is needed (take out fast an enemy that will other way cause lot of damage), maximum tanking power when defense is the best way. it really depends on each battle and it can change in the same battle, a couple of crits and a couple of high to hit rolls can erode your tank hp if you are unlucky, and given the number of battles you will be unlucky sometimes. flexibility and versatility avoid the problem, the point/tank survives cause he has backup and/or help. other way you have to depend on the almighty power word reload.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited September 29
    don't forget that using summons to tank for you, cannon fodder, is sometimes better than tank with npcs but you need the maximum dps to make good use of the short time a summon last. and that your C/I as long as he gets some spells is the better possible tank in some situations, as he has spells to lower the ac, to negate damage and to be immune to weapons, SI abiuration make him immune to most of the debuffing spells. versatility and flexibility is to use all the potential of a given party, fixed roles are always an inferior solution.
    EDIT:
    look here
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/1010868/#Comment_1010868
    to see the offensive potential of a C/M, and i bet that your C/I will have better stats than aerie, so more hp, when he buffs to go mlee, she starts with a very low hp pool and ends buffed at 117 hp, a cleric with better con ends higher. the ac is only -6, but she is only buffed as dps, blur, improved invisibility and party buffing spells like chant can make it even better to make the stoneskins last long so the C/M can use less PFMW that is short lasting. better tank and good damage dealer, comparable to a fighter. not all the battles, only when your usual tanks are not up to the task. versatility and flexibility, as i told too many times in this thread.

    EDIT: just tested, i don't need it in game usually, but using a potion, few spells and tensor transformation aerie easily reaches -23 AC, -18 when DW, and gets 188 hp at level cap. your C/I can do better as can have better con. i don't use tensor with her cause i prefer to don't trade the ability to cast more stoneskins (with a pre cast one and one in contingency she is limited to 2 stoneskin as long as tensor is active), mantle spells and PFMW with some more HP, but tensor does not affect the AC. in my testing aerie uses only the equipment she normally does, she is not using the ring of earth control and cloak of the sewers that are other -2 AC, and more different potions that boost ac can be stacked, she was using only the Potion of Defense that sets the AC to 0. Potion of Fortitude rises con to 18, more hp, Potion of Mind Focusing gives other +3 dex making a C/M top it at 25 for some more AC and natural regeneration. both minsc and jaheira can be decent tanks for regular battles, korgan is the fighter type NPC that can tank the best. but even korgan is way inferior to the tanking potential of C/M and Blade. every time your designed tank, as seems to be your style of playing, or your fighters with tanking capability, as is my style, is/are not up to the situation and risk to be slaughtered buff your C/I and send him to tank.
    using a single designed tank or a more dynamic setup where more people can tank is a matter of play style, of opinion. using a C/M or blade where every other class fail to tank is a fact, not an opinion, and the C/M is the best cause the blade must use the defensive stance, so is static, the C/M can do it while he moves around so can more easily draw the attention of the enemies on himself.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 664
    Half-Elf Cleric/Ranger
    My main canon party had always been a R/C main character. Mainly for the cheesy druid spells as a ranger tbh. Can’t give a real lore reason for it.

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