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Mods for Thief Party

Been playing the baldur's games since they came out, but new to this forum (this is my first post), so hi everyone!

On to my question after a short preamble.

The class group that i've played with the least is rogue because frankly i find them lacking compared to warriors and wizards (found that Kensai/Thief is an exeption to that), but i'm gonna challenge that belief and make a party with six thieves dual and multi-classed in different ways. The idea is to use stealth all the time and backstab like crazy. Open every fight with 6 backstabs :D

So, i'm wondering if there any good mods for such a party. Interested in any thief related mods: rule changes and tweaks, class kit reworks and new kits, good items for thieves (tho balanced ones), quest for thiefs, maybe something that expands on the thief stronghold if such a thing exists, convenience mods and anything else i haven't thought of.

Hope to get some exciting suggestions :D

BlackravenGusindaJuliusBorisov

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    edited October 2
    try tactics mod starting dungeon, to play it with a thief is real fun and this is also where i honed my thieving skills. i play tactics in original, but the irenicus dungeon component should work in EE and should be possible to install it only.
    you just joined the forums (welcome :) ), but you probably know it as you are playing since games come out, as it was the standard difficulty enhancer 15 years ago , but now is played by few. if not on you tube you can find many videos about and get an idea. or you can just go not spoiled like i did and probably you will scream "this is toxic, this is completely not fair!". but if you persist you will surely learn how to use rogues, to master the backstab and traps, to get intel scouting, iliych and his party, that are "slightly" more powerful than in vanilla, patrol the area so intel and opportunity are the keys thieves use to pick them in little groups or one by one.

    i suggest this mod component cause imho it is the "university of the rogue", it can be beaten, and has been beaten, by all classes in party and solo, but is tailored to teach to a rogue how to play.

    i'm gonna challenge that belief and make a party with six thieves dual and multi-classed in different ways. The idea is to use stealth all the time and backstab like crazy. Open every fight with 6 backstabs :D

    beware that dual classes must dual late to get a good backstab multiplier, lev 9 for 4x and lev 13 for 5x, and dual split the xp between classes so a something/thief needs like 1.3 M xp to get 5x multiplier and a FMT next to 2M.
    as you want to run a party of 6 at the beginning your backstab potential will be quite low.
    and imo ideally if a thief (or thieves party) can backstab he does not open the battle backstabbing, he fights the whole battle like that, terrain control, the opening backstab is more for the party thief to get rid of the enemy mage and open the way to your fighters.

    i suggest you to play with a smaller party as 6 thieves are really redundant (don't get me wrong i LOVE thieves and i LOVE backstabbing and using properly the traps). probably 4 is the sweet spot for a rogue party. or five if a skald is there.
    something like T->M , T->C or C/T, FMT and F(berseker?)->T or F/T probably will be perfect.

    EDIT: if you decide to install that tactics mod component feel free to play it on easy or core difficulty, is hard enough, much more than vanilla on insane, no shame in doing it. you can also play it directly on insane, but as your thieves make some error they will survive only few hits. and be prepared to reload often :wink:

    EDIT:grammar, and i bet that there are still errors...

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,058
    Definitely Song & Silence and Rogue Rebalancing for new classes, new versions to classes, new HLA's, and lots of rogue items. One thing in particular it adds is 3 pips in TWS for all rogues. Also Bard Revisions for the same reasons if using bards in a rogue party. Tweaks Anthology adds all kinds of options as well, especially the use of bladed weapons for C/T multi-classes. That's just a few right off the bat.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,040
    I'd recommend Rogue Rebalance or Might and Guile. Or Rogue rebalance, but only install the new HLAs AND Might and Guile.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    Zaghoul said:

    One thing in particular it adds is 3 pips in TWS for all rogues.

    this is useful, but only in few cases really useful imo because thieves lack of the thac0 to go straight into a battle, control of terrain and opportunity are the keys. swashie T->C and C/T are the ones that really benefit as they have the thac0 to actually hit often in battle.
    i don't have any experience with Might and Guile, Song & Silence and Rogue Rebalancing, so i can miss something, but i find that a blade, that can have the 3 pips also in vanilla, is able to DW and be effective only if you give him the right items, he needs them. str and thac0 enhancers, +1 apr weapons, he is very item consuming. there are probably not enough items to let a large group of rogues DW effectively.
    usually the foe immune to backstab are also the ones harder to hit, like dragons, that is why a DW thief if is not also fighter, well equipped blade or cleric is not so game changing when dw. and my blades and fighter thieves can have 3 pips also in vanilla, my cleric thieves can boost their thac0 and str to the extent that they are effective also with only 1 pip.
    if i should fight dragons and other immune to backstab foe with a large group of rogues i would probably go for other tactics, like luring them into traps, while some other of the thieves set some other traps in the next point where to lure the lizard as soon as the old ones are used. this imo is the rogue way to win such battles, not to have the thieves try to mimic fighters going straight to mlee while DW. they lack the thac0 to do it and probably is also against the intentions of the OP.


    The class group that i've played with the least is rogue because frankly i find them lacking compared to warriors and wizards (found that Kensai/Thief is an exeption to that), but i'm gonna challenge that belief and make a party with six thieves dual and multi-classed in different ways. The idea is to use stealth all the time and backstab like crazy.

    his point is to use rogue tactics, not to make rogues more close to fighters giving them 3 pips in DW.

  • CashondeliveriCashondeliveri Member Posts: 8
    Thx for all the recommendations! Gonna take a look at the mods right away. Feel free to recommend more mods :)

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,058
    A couple of other thoughts to consider. The swashie in RR for example uses the fighters THAC0 instead of the rogues. Blades are not too much different but start with 3pips in TWS, Bounty hunters use alchemical traps, assassins start with a higher BS multiplier (and a high special high lvl death attack). All bard HLA are much more suited to the power of sound, while thieves have a little better suited HLA's. Many of the new abilities bypass MR as well. If doing a rogue for the party I can highly recommend Shadow Magic for a mod for the nightsinger (whole new class of magic).

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,516
    Might & Guile (full disclosure: I made it) has a component that gives thieves lots of new tricks, by way of feats: cover the floor with grease, throw sand in your opponents' eyes, apply flaming oil to your weapon, brew potions, learn to evade spell damage, learn to be Lucky, cast spells from scrolls, use a bit of illusion or shadow magic, even learn some psionics. It tries to make thieves out to be true "skill monkeys."

    An upcoming update (like, maybe tonight) will move bards into the thief class with sorcerer-style casting, bard songs that let you fight while singing, and multiclass bards - though that might be too far from your "all thieves" concept even if they are technically thieves.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,040
    "Maybe tonight"? HOT DOG!

  • CashondeliveriCashondeliveri Member Posts: 8

    Might & Guile (full disclosure: I made it) has a component that gives thieves lots of new tricks, by way of feats: cover the floor with grease, throw sand in your opponents' eyes, apply flaming oil to your weapon, brew potions, learn to evade spell damage, learn to be Lucky, cast spells from scrolls, use a bit of illusion or shadow magic, even learn some psionics. It tries to make thieves out to be true "skill monkeys."

    An upcoming update (like, maybe tonight) will move bards into the thief class with sorcerer-style casting, bard songs that let you fight while singing, and multiclass bards - though that might be too far from your "all thieves" concept even if they are technically thieves.

    All those things sound really exciting. Haven't gotten so far as to actually roll my thief party yet (i usually spend a lot of time perfecting my party setup before i start rolling), and only had a short look at Might and Guile and it intrigued me. Definitely gonna take a closer look now tho.

    As for the bard changes you mentioned i really love them. Not been a big fan of bards in bg2 2nd edition, tho i like them fine in 3.0/3.5. Your changes would make bards something i really have to consider not just for this party, but other ones as well.

    I've been debating with myself whether i should include one or two non-thieves in my party. My original plan was to have six party members capable of backstab and stealth both, but for instance ranger and swashbuckler still has stealth, and mages have invisibility. Maybe four backstab characters is enough.

    I have some characters i'm fairly sure i want to include in the party:

    Kensai13/Thief Dual
    Assassin13/Mage Dual
    Cleric/Thief Dual or Multi (there is no way to make a druid/thief dual or multi right?)
    Fighter/Thief or Fighter/Thief/Mage Multi

    Two chars that i would like to play are Cleric25/Thief Dual and Shadowdancer or other thief kit: Thief28/Mage Dual, but that would require a mod that removes the experience cap as well as mods that give more xp through more quests and/or more/tougher enemies to fight, and probably mods that increase difficulty (in a way that stays within 2nd edition rules preferably) so that i wouldn't become overpowered. Wouldn't mind some suggestions on this as well :)

    Have one more question; if i plan to install a lot of mods is Big World Setup the mod of choice to manage mods and avoid conflicts and such?

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,857
    @Cashondeliveri Your post here was caught by the site's spam filter. I have restored it and verified you so that this should not happen again.

  • CashondeliveriCashondeliveri Member Posts: 8
    Tresset said:

    @Cashondeliveri Your post here was caught by the site's spam filter. I have restored it and verified you so that this should not happen again.

    Thanks a lot :D

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,703
    stalker has stealth and backstab, so can fit perfectly in your party.
    in the game you have 2 armors that improve stealth, he can be the user of one of them.
    every combination with mage should ideally not use armor but robes or braciers.

    i see that you are not afraid of high level dual classes, dualing to thief means "only"880k xp to regain the first class, but dualing to mage requires 1.5M, so a total of 2.16Mxp. unless you find new XP, using mod quests, he will not be active again as assassin until late soa.

    about C->T remember that the cleric spell holy power gives the thac0 of a fighter of the same level, so if you dual from cleric at low level gives a crap thac0, dualing at 9, that is good for the bonuses from DUHM and RM, gives thac0 12 and dualing at 13, that is a long way, gives thac0 8. a C/T progresses slower, but has not down time and late game will have thac0 0 + 25str from holy power and righteous magic only, so thac0 -7 + weapon and other items bonuses and +14 dmg. as you already plan other 2 dual classes for the cleric the multi is the way to go, more powerful at the beginning, when the others are in down time, and more powerful at the end, both as caster and self buffer, when more thieving skills will not matter so much in a party full of rogues, hitting better than your F/M or FMT, but with less APR. and the multy will have both classes HLA, earlier than the dual, as he starts to get them at 3M while the dual at 3M+initial class xp.

    about Fighter/Thief or Fighter/Thief/Mage Multi i would go FMT cause you already have a high level mage, the dual from assassin. FMT is far superior to FT in tanking as he can lower his own AC with spells and has stoneskin, mirror images, the mantle/pfmw line spells and spell immunity, so can be basically not touchable by enemies, while being almost as good as thief and fighter than the FT.



    Two chars that i would like to play are Cleric25/Thief Dual and Shadowdancer or other thief kit: Thief28/Mage Dual, but that would require a mod that removes the experience cap as well as mods that give more xp through more quests and/or more/tougher enemies to fight, and probably mods that increase difficulty (in a way that stays within 2nd edition rules preferably) so that i wouldn't become overpowered. Wouldn't mind some suggestions on this as well :)

    a mod that increases difficulty staying in the vanilla game rules (does not change spells and such things) is tactics mod. not all the components are EE compatible, but you can take a look here
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41242/tactics-mod-bg2ee-compatibility-conversion-and-beta-test/p1
    some enemies will cheat (cast spells trough scripts so you can not interrupt them and similar things), some enemies are way more powerful, like the demons that there when are near death spawn a clone of themselves and the thing repeats again and again with the clones, but the vanilla mechanics are preserved, you have not to learn a modified spell and combat system, only to learn how to deal with more powerful enemies.
    about quest mods to have more xp in the game i like Tower of Deception, Eilistraee's Song, Dungeon Crawl, Back to Brynnlaw, The Sellswords. they introduce new quests and can give a good xp boost to allow high level duals, even if dualing from cleric25 imo is really too much, to struggle all the game with down time to have in the few last battles a super toon costs to the party effectiveness much more than what it gives.

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