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So sad – management makes the team look bad…

2

Comments

  • HellkiteHellkite Member Posts: 3
    Repeat after me, "400 improvements, 400 improvements..."
    This is so clearly a labor of love for these guys. Unexpected things happen in software development ALL the time. We'd be howling bloody murder if it kept crashing, accusing them of releasing it before it was ready.

  • kverdonkverdon Member Posts: 27
    Yes, just look over in the windows forum......

    Jairyanna
  • DovakhiinDovakhiin Member Posts: 113
    I don't know if you understand French guys but the french forum is a real mess, many people wanna pay back, they call maker names....

  • JudeauxJudeaux Member Posts: 9
    edited December 2012
    The French guys are overdoing it a bit in my opinion. However, they are right in one point:

    The overall project management is horrible. The team seems to be working 14+ hours each day. That might be noble, but a result of bad/poor planning. The whole project is really cool and yes we would not be able to play Baldur's Gate without this team, but still the project has bad planning written all over it. Most likely a lot of hours spent now to fix it, could have been easily avoided.

    Post edited by Judeaux on
  • namelessonenamelessone Member Posts: 17
    The absolutely hilarious part about this "release" is that this team managed to miss the deadline TWICE already on the game that was out for over 10 years.

  • VintrastormVintrastorm Member Posts: 216

    The absolutely hilarious part about this "release" is that this team managed to miss the deadline TWICE already on the game that was out for over 10 years.

    No, they didn't miss it twice. They first set a vague deadline as "this summer" which was later defined as sometime in september (don'r remember the exact date). This was the first deadline. They moved the deadline once from september to 30 november.
    (And then again from november 30 to november 28.)

  • DovakhiinDovakhiin Member Posts: 113
    @Judeaux

    You know it's not very easy to work on a project like BGEE because there are many factor which gotta change. Firstlyit's multiplateform games (Windows, MAC, Ipad, Android) so they gotta change the source code, and it's not esay to adapt for the Hardware, secondly they added 400 improvements, the Black Pits, three new character, the game is the same gameplay than Throne of Bhall etc third don't forget that create a game is not easy but make a remake it's also difficult. Anyway I'm not deceive of this game because even we have bug I can fix it on my game plus I can create mod for me so it's ok.

  • namelessonenamelessone Member Posts: 17



    No, they didn't miss it twice. They first set a vague deadline as "this summer" which was later defined as sometime in september (don'r remember the exact date). This was the first deadline. They moved the deadline once from september to 30 november.
    (And then again from november 30 to november 28.)

    The iPad version was scheduled for release for Nov 30. It's Dec 1 and I still can't buy it, which qualifies as a "missed deadline" to me.

  • hazmatzakhazmatzak Member Posts: 9



    The iPad version was scheduled for release for Nov 30. It's Dec 1 and I still can't buy it, which qualifies as a "missed deadline" to me.

    Using your (completely moronic) "over 10 years" logic, that makes it less than 0.03% over the time budget, which would make it pretty much on time.

    Dovakhiin
  • namelessonenamelessone Member Posts: 17
    edited December 2012
    Knoland said:



    They are planning to work on testing the iPad version this weekend and expedite the review Monday... These guys are getting like 0 sleep... You have not spent $0.01 on this game yet and they do not owe you a single explanation as to why you can't play it yesterday.

    Updating the website is last on their list of priorities and they do not staff separate people to make those changes. I for one am glad that they are taking care of things in order, I am waiting for the OS X version and we get ours after iPad gets theirs so cheer up.

    All you do now is come up with excuses. They might have good reasons, sure. It doesn't change the fact that the release date was missed twice.

    I didn't spend a single cent on a game because the version I want o buy isn't being sold yet =) And it's true, they don't owe me anything, but I also don't owe them my business. It's true for any business really, I don't know why you had to even say it. Maybe to make up more excuses for missed release dates?
    hazmatzak said:



    The iPad version was scheduled for release for Nov 30. It's Dec 1 and I still can't buy it, which qualifies as a "missed deadline" to me.

    Using your (completely moronic) "over 10 years" logic, that makes it less than 0.03% over the time budget, which would make it pretty much on time.
    Blah blah blah, more excuses, and fanboy insults on top. Signs of great community abound.

    Dovakhiin
  • hazmatzakhazmatzak Member Posts: 9
    Not intended to be an excuse. Just a joke at your expense.

    Your sarcasm about great community reminds me of the P.J. O'Rourke quote: "Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work, and then they get elected and prove it." Which is not to say that we shouldn't complain. But your "over 10 years" line really was moronic.

    swnmcmlxiDovakhiinEndlesswave
  • VintrastormVintrastorm Member Posts: 216
    edited December 2012


    The iPad version was scheduled for release for Nov 30. It's Dec 1 and I still can't buy it, which qualifies as a "missed deadline" to me.

    Naw, it was never scheduled for release. The OsX/iOS versions never had a specific date because the apple approving process was out of their (Devs) hands and couldn't be specified. They did, however, have dates that they were hoping for. It's easy to interpret these as scheduled dates and it is unfortunately easy to get ones hopes up. :(

    Risingsun
  • WakenbakeWakenbake Member Posts: 24
    I think the extent to which some of you fanboys will go in order to defend Beamdog is hilarious.

    Since when did it become acceptable to miss a deadline? You just accept their excuses and pretend that it is beyond their ability or responsibility to remedy. It's not like the release date was given to them -- they set it and it was their responsibility to live up to it. They failed. Criticism is warranted.

    I will definitely agree that this was due to bad management. Those poor code monkeys are probably locked in their cages 12+ hours a day trying to make up for the bad decision making of the higher ups.

    I wanted to like this game. I really did. But unfortunately it seems like a rushed and shoddy job that mostly added features that were already available from mods.

    Sadly for the Baldur's Gate series, it seems as though the franchise has fallen into the hands of a company that will never realize its potential.

    Don't misunderstand, I very much look forward to playing BG on my iPad if/when it becomes available. But I don't think that there will be a BG2:EE or BG3 considering how much this was botched.


    DovakhiinSpace_hamster
  • BytebrainBytebrain Member Posts: 602
    I really don't understand how some people feel entitled to have a game right away, when they know absolutely nothing about the reasons for it.
    Why on earth not just sit back and relax while waiting. Go outside, get some exercise, hell, get some sex!
    It's all healthy for you, and it just have to be better being so angry at some people you don't even know, just because they failed to deliver on the exact time you command.

    DovakhiinRisingsunAristillius
  • FattyBolgerFattyBolger Member Posts: 4
    Wolfheart said:

    @Cheesebelly September is usually Autumn here in Sweden, same for Ireland. In the states autumn begins the Tuesday after labor day (In other words, the tuesday after the first monday in september). In East asia it starts at 8'th of august.

    I did not realize how culturally variable the Autumnal equinox was. I was under the impression it was pretty much a fixed and astronomical event

  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    @FattyBolger : the astronomical equinox should be the same day for the entire world. The difference really is when the sun rises and sets.

  • WolfheartWolfheart Member Posts: 170
    @FattyBolger Not all cultures define fall by the equinox though.

  • muswellbrookmuswellbrook Member Posts: 12
    In Australia, the developers are ahead of their summer 2012 predictions, as best I can tell ;-)

    (the whining on this forum is absurd)

    VintrastormAristillius
  • GadrenGadren Member Posts: 23
    Honestly I'm more upset by the people who don't know how seasons work than by the small iPad delay.

    FuzzyPuffinleyshjonoe
  • maximuspadicusmaximuspadicus Member Posts: 1
    Wow.
    The Asshole Quotient(tm) seems amazingly high in this thread.
    I have never seen so many whiny, sniveling, self-entitled, and selfish ADULTS in all my life.
    It's a game people!

    These developers are taking the time, energy, and resources to fix all the known problems for who?........wait for it ....
    YOU.

    With this lovely insight in mind,
    Calm down.

    The game will be released when it's released.
    This too will pass, and your asses will live.

    Have a great day! :)

    Dovakhiin
  • JudeauxJudeaux Member Posts: 9

    Wow.
    The Asshole Quotient(tm) seems amazingly high in this thread.
    I have never seen so many whiny, sniveling, self-entitled, and selfish ADULTS in all my life.
    It's a game people!

    These developers are taking the time, energy, and resources to fix all the known problems for who?........wait for it ....
    YOU.

    With this lovely insight in mind,
    Calm down.

    The game will be released when it's released.
    This too will pass, and your asses will live.

    Have a great day! :)

    Have you followed the discussion at all? Obviously not. You just call everyone an asshole, who critically questions how the management of the company handled / "managed" this release, for which the whole development team is now suffering and working their asses off. BTW: This also caused the customers to get angry and frustrated.
    It is only a game? Yes it is, like most things are in life if you abstract and it surly cannot be about the money... What a wise person you must be.


  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    Wakenbake said:

    I think the extent to which some of you fanboys will go in order to defend Beamdog is hilarious.

    Since when did it become acceptable to miss a deadline? You just accept their excuses and pretend that it is beyond their ability or responsibility to remedy. It's not like the release date was given to them -- they set it and it was their responsibility to live up to it. They failed. Criticism is warranted.

    I will definitely agree that this was due to bad management. Those poor code monkeys are probably locked in their cages 12+ hours a day trying to make up for the bad decision making of the higher ups.

    I wanted to like this game. I really did. But unfortunately it seems like a rushed and shoddy job that mostly added features that were already available from mods.

    Sadly for the Baldur's Gate series, it seems as though the franchise has fallen into the hands of a company that will never realize its potential.

    Don't misunderstand, I very much look forward to playing BG on my iPad if/when it becomes available. But I don't think that there will be a BG2:EE or BG3 considering how much this was botched.

    Do you play any Blizzard Games? I'm just wondering, since your word "acceptable" is kinda funny. It's not only ACCEPTABLE to miss a deadline in this industry it's EXPECTED...and not just once, over and over and over and over again. Diablo III anyone?

    Just to put it in perspective. On the day Beamdog said they'd release the PC client, the vast majority of users were able to complete download and run the application (may with problems but they were able to actually run the app).

    That's about night and day better than some of the major game production companies who's opening day releases were so bad as to have people fail to be able to complete patch or log in. This is normal within the gaming community.

    Perhaps not the best method of treating your customers, but they're doing no worse that pretty much any other major company has, and under a much tighter budget.

    "It's not like the release date was given to them -- they set it and it was their responsibility to live up to it. They failed. Criticism is warranted."

    And this comment, right here, is why most companies won't go out on a limb like Beamdog did and give you a release date. That comment, right there, is what drives all the secrecy and lack of communication that you all bitch and complain about. "OMG Game companies don't communicate with their users!"

    Duh, is it any wonder why not?

    "I will definitely agree that this was due to bad management."

    Excellent, what management decision was it you'd like to point your finger at? I'd love to hear the inside scoop and what management declared that has caused this delay? I await edification.

    The only management decision I can come up with would be a lack of open beta/playable demo to flesh out the problems many are having right now with the windows release. Since Apple has no process surrounding "beta" testing an apple app, I just don't see how the iPad or Mac OSX release could have been done any other way.

    SO unless you're complaining about the windows release being screwed up in the iPad forum, I'm not sure how exactly you'd like to blame "management" for any kind of failure.

  • FuzzyPuffinFuzzyPuffin Member Posts: 289
    edited December 2012
    @Illydth Actually, there is a mechanism for beta testing iOS apps. On the Mac, it's not even an issue because the MAS isn't a requirement––Beamdog could have provided a standalone timed beta if they wanted.

    With that said, organizing betas are work in and of themselves, and I'm not sure it would be worth it––especially considering there are fewer possible configurations in Apple-land.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    I absolutely agree with you @FuzzyPuffin. My comment above was targeted at windows platform problems not the iPad/Mac OSX release delay...though I didn't know that there was a method for beta testing an iOS app other than releasing a "limited" demo version before releasing a paid version. That's good info to know.

    From a windows perspective (and I posted this) I think Beamdog made a mistake at not producing an open beta / limited demo to denote hardware issues early. From an iPad/Mac perspective, as I said above, I don't know how they would have been able to have handled this release better...which is why I take exception to the commentary in this forum about incompetence and Management responsibility for the iPad/Mac Release.

    As far as I'm concerned they've done nothing wrong.

  • WakenbakeWakenbake Member Posts: 24
    Illydth said:

    Wakenbake said:


    "It's not like the release date was given to them -- they set it and it was their responsibility to live up to it. They failed. Criticism is warranted."

    And this comment, right here, is why most companies won't go out on a limb like Beamdog did and give you a release date. That comment, right there, is what drives all the secrecy and lack of communication that you all bitch and complain about. "OMG Game companies don't communicate with their users!"

    Expecting them to meet a release date that they set themselves is causing secrecy and a lack of communication? They should not have given a release date without being prepared to meet it. I wouldn't care if it took another year (assuming they added more content/features), but don't tell me it's going to be available and then start making excuses when the time comes.

    Maybe I'm not enough of a gamer, but I expect projects to be completed on time. I don't care what Blizzard does or whether Diablo was late. Maybe they were screwing around until a week before release as well. That doesn't make Beamdog any less culpable for their failings.

    The original release date was over two months ago, and the PC version still seems rushed. I can only play it on one PC due to the intel issues, and it does little more than is achievable through mods that have been available for years. The only point of this game, as I see it, is to bring BG to the iPad. Since that hasn't been done, I don't see the harm in complaining.

    Management decided on the release date, what content would be included, and the quantity and quality of the employees on the project. When things go wrong, it's not hard to figure out who is to blame.

  • WakenbakeWakenbake Member Posts: 24
    edited December 2012
    Trent Oster: "Current iPad build has been rejected from iTunes. We've got some work to do! "

    Everyone just lower your expectations, this could take a while.

    I'm sorry, I was wrong to think they would get this done soon.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    @Wakenbake

    At least you responded to my complaints so let me respond to yours.

    "They should not have given a release date without being prepared to meet it."

    When did you want to know it was released then? After it was released? Should the company have simply posted "It'll be done when it gets done, keep checking back for an announcement that says 'it's released' and oh, by the way, please continue giving us your money and pre-ordering even though we won't tell you when things will be done!"

    Release dates are required in the software development industry and rarely are they ever met. MANAGEMENT can take one of two tracks on release dates.

    1) Release software that is buggy and unfinished to meet their release date.
    2) Miss the Release Date to release software that at least completes QA testing.

    Time, Money, Quality. Pick 2.

    Unfortunately the above isn't exactly correct. If Beamdog had never given a release date less people would have paid up front pre-orders, meaning you're really only looking at TIme/Quality, Pick 1, with Time being not forever since you have to pay developers something.

    You can't run a project without a deadline. Stakeholders must be given some line in the sand before they're willing to finance your project.

    "Maybe I'm not enough of a gamer, but I expect projects to be completed on time."

    In general that's a bad assumption. Just like battle plans, no project plan survives contact with project realities. It doesn't matter if you're in software design or car repair. Ever taken your car into the mechanic, had them estimate 2 hours of work and sat there for 3 or 4 hours? Did you go up and complain? I feel sorry for your Mechanic if you did.

    This statement seems to suggest that you don't understand or otherwise acknowledge that problems can occur and things can happen without a finger being able to be pointed. Simply living a normal human life should lend credence to the "stuff happens" adage. That doesn't mean someone was grossly incompetent or negligent.

    "The original release date was over two months ago, and the PC version still seems rushed. I can only play it on one PC due to the intel issues, and it does little more than is achievable through mods that have been available for years."

    I've commented on both of these points in other places. If your complaint is that the windows version is buggy, see my post entitled something like "Perhaps a larger Beta would have been Called For" in the windows forum. Please go complain about poor release management there, you might find a better reception.

    "Management decided on the release date, what content would be included, and the quantity and quality of the employees on the project. When things go wrong, it's not hard to figure out who is to blame."

    I probably should have just responded to this since it's the crux of your argument and the crux of what I disagree with.

    Management may have decided on a release date but it's a number drawn from a hat. There's an internal project plan that gets drawn up and padded and a date emerges...that doesn't make it a good date, it makes it a date. That number is more affected by financial decisions (how long can we develop this app given the revenue stream we have) and man power than any real "how long will this take" concept. I guarantee you that if you polled all of the developers and managers in the company you'd have gotten at least 50 different "release dates" that would be viable.

    As to what content is included and the quantity and quality of the employees on the project, that's all determined by budget, not time and is CERTAINLY not up to management's decision. What gets included is a function of development/design costs (and at $20 a copy with a couple thousand people you're not talking about being able to do rocket science here...not with the cost of development), not a MANAGEMENT DECISION.

    Get a grip, they've missed a deadline by 3 - 7 days. That's pretty damn good for a project that's been in development for 2 years. Hell, even missing the original deadline by 2 months is a pretty dern good scheduling/project management accomplishment on a development timeline that long.

This discussion has been closed.