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Have charisma malus any sense on BG environment?

Just asking because I was checking the malus on the silver armor (made by silver scales) and it has a malus on charisma. I don't understand if it is a good idea or not to be honest. If I was to make a mod for BG, should I remove the malus?

Comments

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    If anything, it should increase Charisma due to its beauty. The description implies that the penalty is because a great creature had to be killed to produce it, but there's no reason anyone but the wearer would know that.

    Chronicler
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    Wasn't the "great creature" a dragon anyway? Like don't get me wrong, I get that they're intelligent life in The Realms, but it seems pretty socially acceptable to slay dragons just in general.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    edited October 2018
    @Chronicler: Metallic dragons are supposed to be good-aligned by default in the Forgotten Realms, especially gold and silver dragons. It's the chromatic dragons (red, green, white, black, blue, etc.) that are evil by default. That's why Adalon is the only good-aligned dragon in BG2; all the others are chromatic dragons. Though it's possible that the average person wouldn't know there was any difference, and I'm sure most people in Faerun would think "evil red dragon" if they were asked to picture a non-specific dragon.

    ChroniclerThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    I dunno. None of the other dragons we slay seemed too evil either. Shadow Dragon for example was just minding its own business in its lair, until we marched in and slew it. We can wear its scales without a charisma penalty.

    That's kind of classic dragon behavior too. They sleep on a hoard of treasure and then you, the brave noble adventurer, wake them up so you can kill them and take their stuff. Classically the dragon is some animal that has no use for its treasure, a metaphor for the futility of greed, but maybe a bit more morally questionable in a setting where dragons are as smart if not smarter than humans.

  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 959

    I dunno. None of the other dragons we slay seemed too evil either. Shadow Dragon for example was just minding its own business in its lair, until we marched in and slew it. We can wear its scales without a charisma penalty.

    That's kind of classic dragon behavior too. They sleep on a hoard of treasure and then you, the brave noble adventurer, wake them up so you can kill them and take their stuff. Classically the dragon is some animal that has no use for its treasure, a metaphor for the futility of greed, but maybe a bit more morally questionable in a setting where dragons are as smart if not smarter than humans.

    Shadow Dragons are, IIRC, more CN than good/evil. Not sure about 2nd Ed., but 3e/3.5e came up with loads of dragons (gem dragons in MM2, epic Force/Prismatic dragons in Epic Handbook)

    The Dragonlance setting, for example, is MUCH more about good vs. evil dragons than Forgotten Realms. It's a MAJOR plot point at several points through the history of the setting. They don't call it the First/Second/Third Dragonwars for nothing.

    D&D Dragons are generally a bit more active and involved than "classic" dragons. Also even their psychology differs on type, though it's more pronounced with the good metallics than the rest, who will generally kill you on sight because evil.

    Chroniclersemiticgoddess
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    Doesn't even Drizzt's sword, Icingdeath, come from a dragon he and Wulfgar killed that wasn't really doing much?

    If I recall Wulfgar had to kill a dragon as some sort of rite of passage, so they just slew a local one like that was a totally heroic thing to do.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Yeah, but the Icewind Dale ones were all white dragons, the weakest of the evil dragons.

    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    edited October 2018
    Right, but I'm not sure how their relative strength relates to the morality of killing them or the charisma modifiers that might follow from carrying around evidence of the deed.

    semiticgoddess
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    ThacoBell
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    To be fair, silver dragon scales are the same color as steel, and lots of different types of armor include scales, notably scale mail. A wizard might be able to tell the difference under close scrutiny, but the average Faerunian has never seen any dragon; they certainly wouldn't be able to tell the difference between silver scales and scales that are silver. If it was a red dragon's scale, they'd probably guess it wasn't just any average metal, particularly since a chromatic dragon's scales wouldn't have the same metallic sheen as a metallic dragon's scales.

    But silver scales? That describes most armor in the game. In fact, the in-game icon for the Silver Dragon Scale is identical to the Full Plate Mail +2 from ToB. And we're talking about a game where you had to go to a special vendor to recognize elephant hide.

    ChroniclerArtona
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    And again, they're the "good" dragons, but what does that mean? Beloved heroes kill dragons that are no harm to anybody all the time, and are only praised for it. What exactly do Silver Dragons do that's so good? Are we expecting that these people who recognize your armor will think back to the Silver Dragons they've seen tending to the sick in their communities? That Silver Dragon they met as a child who helped them find their parents after getting lost in the carnival? Think fondly back to the Silver Dragon in the guard who set them straight as a youth after they got caught up in the wrong crowd?

    Ardul
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    As for Adalon, she helped guard the surface world from the drow. I think the "good" part is mostly that they're opposed to evil dragons and other critters that prey on humanoid races. It's more of a distant, rarely seen "thousand-year guardian" thing than a "friendly demigod helping out around town" thing.

    The latter would be better, honestly, and certainly seems more "good" as far as alignment goes, but for a fantasy environment, the former is a little more cool. Dragons wouldn't seem quite as kickass if you could see them plowing fields and building homes for humans every day.

    ChroniclerArtonaThacoBellArdul
  • ScarsUnseenScarsUnseen Member Posts: 170
    edited October 2018
    According to the 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms sourcebook, Draconomicon, silver dragons are among the most social of the species and prefer the company of humans and demihumans to that of their own kind. They initially do so in a polymorphed form, but they almost always reveal their true nature to those they have chosen to call friends. Additionally, silver dragons and gold dragons both hate injustice and will often help the lower races in times of dire need. So there is likely to be at least some awareness among the human and demihuman races of silver dragons as a force for good. Adding to that are active draconic organizations like the Talons of Justice which work to improve the Realms and recruit good aligned humans and demihumans to their cause.

    On top of that, the metallic dragons have much shorter spans of time in which they go dormant. Chromatic dragons can sleep on their horde for up to decades at a time, but metallic dragons rarely sleep for more than a few years(though this increases as they grow older). Younger silvers in particular only sleep for maybe a year or two at most before becoming active again. So sightings and encounters with metallic dragons would be more likely to occur in one's lifetime than chromatics(where as accounts of encounters with chromatics would be memorable for their violence).

    So there's certainly justification for the malus as a somewhat clumsy way of representing a certain amount of public taboo on wearing the skin of intelligent beings known for helping the younger races throughout history.

    ChroniclersemiticgoddessThacoBellMantis37
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    Fair enough. So they're almost like some sort of benevolent fae. The average peasant may not have personally encountered a silver dragon but there would be enough stories circulating about whimsical encounters with Silver Dragons that it would be common knowledge that these particular dragons are our friends.

    semiticgoddess
  • ScarsUnseenScarsUnseen Member Posts: 170
    That, and some powerful, good aligned NPCs very well may have encountered a silver dragon or possibly even have friendly relations with one, and once word of someone seen wearing the skin of one circulates, they may investigate and spread word that you are someone not to be trusted. In terms of Baldur's Gate mechanics, a loss of Reputation score might be more appropriate, but given how easy it is to negate reputation loss, I can see why the developers went with the Charisma hit instead.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    Now we're getting back into tenuous territory imo. Colour me skeptical that Elminster personally went around and informed every single blacksmith, harlot, sailor, and spy about where your armor came from and why it means they shouldn't trust you.

  • ScarsUnseenScarsUnseen Member Posts: 170
    edited October 2018
    That's why I said it's clumsy. No, notables wouldn't put out town criers denouncing you, but depending on how strongly they felt about it, they might send letters to other influential NPCs, making it harder for you to deal with nobility, Harpers, and anyone they themselves deal with. Think of how Saerevok got every bounty hunter and assassin on your tail through letters, and think of how a dragon-friend might try to assassinate your reputation instead.

    Aside from a lot of scripted events, there aren't many ways to mechanically represent that sort of social opposition. Since one of the primary bonuses of 2E Charisma is Reaction Adjustment, the way they handled it is a kind of sort of close approximation to what would happen at the actual table, only more broad in effect.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350
    Sarevok hired some assassins to assassinate you, yes, but I don't really see how that connects to this.

    They're assassins. They're there to be hired. They specifically create channels to do so, in order for their business to flourish. That's not really the same as the kind of widespread influencing of public opinion you're talking about.

    I also don't know where you're getting that these are all the assassins. You fend off like maybe ten assassins thoughout your journey. I don't think The Sword Coast was bereft of assassins by the time you left, because you'd singlehandedly slaughtered the entire industry out of existence.

  • ScarsUnseenScarsUnseen Member Posts: 170
    edited October 2018
    My point was that Sarevok accomplished that with nothing more than influence and money. Others have influence and money too, and might be willing to use some of that to see to it that someone who would murder a good-aligned intelligent being and wear its skin in public might not have an easy go of it in circles where their influence extended. And given that the same sorts of people who might befriend a dragon also often belong to organizations such as the Harpers, that influence might extend farther than you'd think.

    If I were running a game where the players did this, I might rule that the PCs get a penalty to reaction adjustment among good-aligned factions and anyone friendly to metallic dragons in general. I might also plan out some interactions where the PCs' notoriety as slayers of good-aligned dragons comes into play just as I might do in another sense had it been evil dragons that the PCs were known for slaying. But in a CRPG, there's a limit to how nuanced such effects can be implemented, so a Charisma penalty seems like a relatively close fit.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    The funny thing is that the Human Flesh +5 imposes no penalties to Charisma.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehrMERLANCE
  • ScarsUnseenScarsUnseen Member Posts: 170
    To be honest, I couldn't say I'd be able to pick human leather out of a line-up against other types of leather. Pretty sure I'd be able to spot the dragon scale.

    Still creepy armor to have in the game though.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    True, though the Human Flesh is actually a fleshy pink color and has visible stitches in its inventory icon. It doesn't really look tanned.

    ChroniclerThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350

    My point was that Sarevok accomplished that with nothing more than influence and money.

    Well, money. He accomplished hiring ten-ish assassins with money. Where we seem to disagree is how much influence you'd need for this feat.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    Couldn't you just say you found it on an already dead silver dragon?
    If it's metallic it wouldn't rot I presume?

    Chronicler
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,350


    Couldn't you just say you found it on an already dead silver dragon?
    If it's metallic it wouldn't rot I presume?

    Do Silver Dragons shed? That would probably be a good humane source of dragon scales.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Chronicler
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Well, just because you didn't murder said dragon doesn't mean the armour wouldn't be disturbing to people.

    Regarding the Human Flesh +5, maybe people assume you skinned only Blackguards for it? Humans aren't always good, while Faerun silver dragons are after all.

    ThacoBell
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 1,068
    edited December 2018
    Arthas said:

    Just asking because I was checking the malus on the silver armor (made by silver scales) and it has a malus on charisma. I don't understand if it is a good idea or not to be honest. If I was to make a mod for BG, should I remove the malus?

    I think the idea was that silver scales are so beautiful that everyone would know they came from a silver dragon, which you either slew yourself or profited from its slaying (if you fibbed and said you bought the armor from a vendor). I can understand why a good-aligned character would *want* to remove the malus while wearing the armor, but if you're going for realism then it would probably be better to change the alignment on your character sheet rather than the malus.

    Post edited by jsaving on
    ChroniclerThacoBell
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    DreadKhan said:

    Well, just because you didn't murder said dragon doesn't mean the armour wouldn't be disturbing to people.

    Regarding the Human Flesh +5, maybe people assume you skinned only Blackguards for it? Humans aren't always good, while Faerun silver dragons are after all.

    Better have a sign on the armor that points out that, yeah, we skinned 'em, but trust us, these guys were horrid!

    DreadKhan
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