Fun party for fight/thief main?

bmardiney

Just what the title says, finally going to go all the way through the BG series with a fighter/thief. I'm playing Chaotic Nuetral, so I'm thinking aside from interpersonal conflicts, I don't care about NPC alignments. I guess it might be nice if I can find a place for BG2 characters to stick around, but it's not vital. Imoen, for example, seems redundant since I'm going to be handling traps and locks (maybe keep her around for pickpocketing and dualing into mage?)

So far, I'm thinking Dorn, Neera, maybe Kiven (though his time crunch thing seems pretty limiting), Viconia...I don't know though.

Thoughts? Should I keep a thief around for the traps and locks and focus myself on stealth for backstab? Is backstabbing even fun? Or is it more tedious with all the micro-management?

Permidion_Stark

Backstabbing is great fun when you are soloing but will involve some micromanagement when using a party. If you like to send someone out to scout ahead then backstabbing is just an added bonus but if you prefer to put your tanks in the front and keep everyone in formation then it might not be for you.

As for who to take with you if you want to keep some of the same people in the party all the way through then I would definitely choose Jaheira because she becomes incredibly useful for taking down mages in SoA. Personally I would also go for Imoen and Edwin. Neera strikes me as too much of a liability - I couldn't enjoy playing with a companion who has the capability of accidentally destroying all your gold or killing the whole party.

bmardiney

Jesus, I thought the Wild Mage stuff was mostly goofy, like turning my people into sheep by accident or something. Losing all of your gold? That's just stupid.

So now I'm thinking I should have just made Imoen my main thief and I should specialize in backstab until I get to higher levels. Hmmmm

TrollopsAndPlugTails

Neera in BG1 is certainly not for no/limited reloads power gamers (although you do get Stoneskin in her quest!). This is not because she or the class is bad, but because Conjurer with an extra amulet is OP and Baeloth is very comparable to both. Second problem with WM is that you should forget about Nahal's Reckless Dweomer until at least capping exp in BG1 and than only with caution and with Chaos Shield.

Most of the bad Surge Effects can be mitigated: stash your loot and sell only when you need to buy something. Don't cast near innocents and preferable keep Neera in a distance from (most) of your party during fights. On the plus side, she has a gem bag (you can steal or just let her join for a moment).

In SoA the bad surges won't be disastrous and she is simply a specialist witout prohibited schools. She can't rival Edwin, but Conjurer class is OP and his amulet is broken, period. You can try to use Nahal to cast Wish/Limited Wish before you reach the level of these spells, but it will take a couple of tries.
In ToB she's a huge powerhorse because you actually can use NRD with a good chance of success. So that 7 lvl1 spells become something like 4 level 9 spells in practice, *which* you don't have to memorize. Wild Mage gets most of Sorcerers flexibility with basically no disadvantages. Only Edwin from all mages - including PC - will be a more powerful caster, and it's close.

The reason most people take Neera however (or use a mod to remove her is her polarizing personality. I think she's the most amusing character of all by far. She has a lot of cool dialog and interesting background, very far from being one dimensional. In general, all three of the EE NPCs have a lot more content that anyone else, only Jaheira's romance is on par. Following their story line was very interesting (especially Rasaad) so I recommend you take each of them at least once.

TrollopsAndPlugTails

Neera aside, a F/T was always to me the best PC class choice. You actually get to lead and can stand damage from missed traps, always have something to do and really fun HLAs. I would take any cleric/druid for healing, two casters and one fighter. Which exactly depends on your alignment. If you dual Imoen (or dump her completely), you have one extra slot which is handy for doing NPC quest - recruit them, do their quest, let them go.

But all in all, you will not need a lot of support and the game will be quite easy even with a single mage and another fighter (multi or not).

raelcari

bmardiney said:

Just what the title says, finally going to go all the way through the BG series with a fighter/thief.

A wise decision, young padawan. I'm assuming you're multiclassing, but which race are you going for? And which weapon proficiencies?

bmardiney said:

Imoen, for example, seems redundant since I'm going to be handling traps and locks (maybe keep her around for pickpocketing and dualing into mage?)

Well, you could always dual her immediately, I guess. However, I'd personally take Edwin along instead. He outguns her (and everyone else), and you'll have more than enough find traps on your PC. You do not need another thief.

bmardiney said:

So far, I'm thinking Dorn, Neera, maybe Kiven (though his time crunch thing seems pretty limiting), Viconia...I don't know though.

Kivan is an absolute beast, but he is good and conflicts with Viconia. You could use Jaheira for your cleric/druid role in her stead. As for Khalid, who knows, he has been known to suffer... accidents, right after he joins the party. I'd go with an all-evil party, myself.

bmardiney said:

Is backstabbing even fun? Or is it more tedious with all the micro-management?

If backstabbing is f... Can we talk about this after you've splatted Lendarn?

bmardiney

Interesting. I actually thought that Khalid was more useful than jaheria. I’m used to NWN 2, where the Druid isn’t really a healer.

If jaheria can be the cleric role, then I’m fine with taking her and Khalid.

bmardiney

Also, if I dumped all my level 1 thief points into lockpick and find traps, can I still recover him into a decent backstabber or should I just start over and put it all into hide and move silently?

butteredsoul

I recently finished my F/Th run-through and had a ball. Mine was evil, however. The evil NPCs are rather OP. I did Kagain, Dorn, Viconia, Edwin, and Eldoth->Baeloth. I used a mod (SCS), however, to get Eldoth early. Whatever you do, have fun!

Permidion_Stark

bmardiney said:

Also, if I dumped all my level 1 thief points into lockpick and find traps, can I still recover him into a decent backstabber or should I just start over and put it all into hide and move silently?

You can definitely still make him into a decent backstabber. You will get enough points to be good at everything eventually. Also you will find some boots early in your adventures that will help you move silently.

When attempting to hide be sure to make use of shadows. I don't know exactly how the mechanism works but it definitely seems to make a difference if you are standing in the shadow of a tree or rock when you attempt to hide. It also seems easier to hide at night. My F/T skulks around most maps in darkness, sneaking up on people and whacking them over the head with a quarterstaff (which is a great backstabbing weapon).

Xanatos

I actually use a lot of rogues in my parties usually, even if my charname is one already. My current fighter/thief party consists of Charname functioning as an archer until my stealth score improves, Kagain to soak damage on the frontline, Viciona, Montaron and Xzar (not the most efficient choices but I'd never used them before) and a downloaded 3rd party character named Vynd who is an assasin. So total 3 rogues (Charname, Monty, Vynd). It really doesn't feel like I'm missing much either.

raelcari

bmardiney said:

If jaheria can be the cleric role, then I’m fine with taking her and Khalid.

You can of course do that if you like. However, you typically go with NPCs of (more or less) the same alignment, so as not to have them get into conflicts with each other. But instead of spoiling, I'm just going to wish you good luck. F/T makes for an awesome PC with extremely strong abilities once you learn the mechanics. You should commit @Permidion_Stark tips to memory.

raelcari

bmardiney said:

Also, if I dumped all my level 1 thief points into lockpick and find traps

Probably a good place to start. The thief class levels up quickly, and you can spend points elsewhere soon. Certain potions and equipment also boost your thieving skills.

bmardiney

Cool, thanks all! So I'll just stick with my current guy and spread his point out to hide and move silently on level up.

I'm still trying to piece together my team though. I have an 18 charisma, I really can't resolve disputes between companions? Alright, I guess I'll just go good since that covers more BG2 returning characters. I do really want to take Edwin and Dorn though. Hmm.

raelcari

bmardiney said:

I have an 18 charisma, I really can't resolve disputes between companions? Alright, I guess I'll just go good since that covers more BG2 returning characters. I do really want to take Edwin and Dorn though. Hmm.

That helps. Party reputation also comes into play, and gets more difficult to manage when you need to avoid both ends of the continuum. Only certain NPCs conflict. I agree Edwin and Dorn make a strong case for an evil playthrough, but you'll also be able to find good companions for your chaotic good, altruistic backstabbing thief

What's your race, stats, profs and so on?

Permidion_Stark

I think your Charisma will only help stop disputes if you are in the leader slot and I am guessing as a Fighter Thief you will probably be standing further back.

TrollopsAndPlugTails

Charisma will decrease bickering (and perhaps boost morale? Not sure if implemented), but won't stop sides which want to kill each other - only postopone it AFAIK. I am not sure if I travelled with mortal enemies with Cha18, though; maaaaybe you could just call them off, charm them or something to prevent greater bloodshed.

raelcari

Permidion_Stark said:

I think your Charisma will only help stop disputes if you are in the leader slot and I am guessing as a Fighter Thief you will probably be standing further back.

Well, he could always give that slot to

Dorn

or use a different formation, but I think you're right.

TrollopsAndPlugTails said:

Charisma will decrease bickering (and perhaps boost morale? Not sure if implemented), but won't stop sides which want to kill each other - only postopone it AFAIK. I am not sure if I travelled with mortal enemies with Cha18, though; maaaaybe you could just call them off, charm them or something to prevent greater bloodshed.

I'm also unsure, but my guess is you can't call them off.

bmardiney

raelcari said:

What's your race, stats, profs and so on?

I was going just a standard Elf F/T multi, chaotic neutral (the only interesting alignment ). I'm not at home right now but off the top of my head, I think I'm:

18/95
19
17
12
3
18

And I was going dual-wielding longswords (and eventually scimitars and shortswords).

raelcari

bmardiney said:

I was going just a standard Elf F/T multi, chaotic neutral (the only interesting alignment ). I'm not at home right now but off the top of my head, I think I'm:

18/95
19
17
12
3
18

And I was going dual-wielding longswords (and eventually scimitars and shortswords).

Elf F/T, very good! A nice roll, too. You will be fairly strong quite early because of the +1 to hit with swords (and bows), and longswords + DW is a great way to spend those first pips. I assume the pips in shortsword or scimitars (you only really need one of those!) are for a +1 APR off-hand weapon in the sequel, which is also a good idea.

If you intend to go through the entire saga though, I'd personally re-roll as a halfling to get that +16 CON shorty bonus to all saving throws. Granted, you sacrifice +1 thac0 with swords and bows for a meager +1 with slings (which you probably won't use) - but when your fighter levels start kicking in, 1 thac0 in either direction is going to be insignificant anyway. Magic is 'the new archery' in BG2, so saves vs. spell, death, etc. go a long way.

That being said, your elven F/T could probably solo the saga on insane difficulty in terms of powergaming potential.
edit: Well, maybe not ToB.

bmardiney

Yeah good points but for purely role play reasons, I don’t really want to play a halfling. I would play a human if I could while still doing a multi class. The more alien my character becomes the less I like them. I will never play an argonian or khajit in elder scrolls games

jsaving

Fighter/mage/thief is a better option than fighter/thief if you want to backstab much. Invisibility means you can put 0 thief points in stealth skills and the mage's melee buffs make you a much hardier melee combatant for instances where backstab doesn't fully do the job.

That said, fighter/thief is still plenty strong.

Permidion_Stark

bmardiney said:

Yeah good points but for purely role play reasons, I don’t really want to play a halfling. I would play a human if I could while still doing a multi class. The more alien my character becomes the less I like them. I will never play an argonian or khajit in elder scrolls games

You can play as a human multi-class if you use the tweak pack from the Gibberlings 3 site: http://www.gibberlings3.net/tweaks/

It's got loads of useful tweaks and cheats. Personally I use the cheat that allows you to achieve grand mastery when muti-classing because I can't see why dual-classers should be able to get five pips in a weapon but multi-classers can only get two.

bmardiney

I'd rather just leave my game stock for now (not a fan of "cheat" mods or other things that throw off the developer's game balance).

Alright so I'm thinking:

Me F/T Multi
Imoen F/M Dual (at 5 I guess?)
Viconia
Dorn
Edwin
[Reserve Slot] - For people I want to bring in to finish their personal quests or just for temporary flavor or something.

Feels weird playing a mostly evil party for my official run-through, but the good characters kind of suck

jsaving

If you plan to handle traps/locks yourself, then it doesn't make much difference when you dual Imoen. You'd have slightly higher hit points and a slightly better thaco if you wait until 7th level, but most people do it earlier to lessen the tedium of regaining the old class.

raelcari

bmardiney said:

I'd rather just leave my game stock for now (not a fan of "cheat" mods or other things that throw off the developer's game balance).

Alright so I'm thinking:

Me F/T Multi
Imoen F/M Dual (at 5 I guess?)
Viconia
Dorn
Edwin
[Reserve Slot] - For people I want to bring in to finish their personal quests or just for temporary flavor or something.

Feels weird playing a mostly evil party for my official run-through, but the good characters kind of suck

Since you are going with evil, consider recruiting Kagain and give him The Brawling Hands!

compleCCity

Canonically Imoen duals at 7, but at 8 you'd get anther proficiency point. People tell, you can't get beyond 161,000 XP in the BG campaign, so you wouldn't get her skills back in the first part of the game if chosing level 8 for dualing.

bmardiney

Yeah I was thinking Kagain as well. He'll probably be who I have in the reserve slot unless I'm doing someone's quest.

And okay, sounds good, Imoen at 7. I'm going to pump my sneaking until then I guess.

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Xanatos

For me it's hard to do an evil playthrough without Kagain. Brawling hands, ankheg armor and large shield +1 and you can have a -6ac before you even go into the nashkel mines. I would even take him over Dorn personally, maybe use Dorn as your reserve until you finish his quest.

Permidion_Stark

bmardiney said:

I'd rather just leave my game stock for now (not a fan of "cheat" mods or other things that throw off the developer's game balance).

Fair enough, but I don't think multi classing as a human will have any effect on game balance. Multi classing non-humans and dual classing humans are just an odd quirk left over from the early days of D&D.