Standard bard got weaker?

szb

Reading the manual it seems the plain bard song is even worse then previously. If I recall correctly it had a luck bonus that gave +1 to all kinds of rolls but right now the only effects seem to be:
-Increase moral to 10
-Remove Fear
-Protection from Fear

I was hoping bards get an improvement, maybe a song that improves as they lvl up, instead it seems they are weaker then ever. :-(

TJ_Hooker

It's possible that description is innacurate, as in the other manual they describe bard song as giving a bonus to morale and luck. But yeah if it's pretty brutal if that's all it does. I mean all you need is a cleric with the level 1 remove fear spell to render singing completely useless.

chickenhed

What concerned me was the song not getting better with levels. Which brings me to another question. Does anyone know if the plain bard song in vanilla BG1/BG2 actually DID get better? For example, if you read the original blade description, one of the drawbacks is that "bard song does not improve with levels."

Which, of course, implies that the standard bard song DID get better. Anyone know for sure?

szb

chickenhed said:

What concerned me was the song not getting better with levels. Which brings me to another question. Does anyone know if the plain bard song in vanilla BG1/BG2 actually DID get better? For example, if you read the original blade description, one of the drawbacks is that "bard song does not improve with levels."

Which, of course, implies that the standard bard song DID get better. Anyone know for sure?

It did not improve. Lvl 20 bardsong had the same effect as a lvl 1. In the rogue rebalancing mod they changed this so that it improved gradually and there was also a new high level ability that bards could take that would improve their song greatly.
I was hoping for something similar but seems like thid won't be the case.

deltago

Actually this makes standard bards more playable imo.

If you had to choose between a song that gave +2,+2, -2 (hit, dmg, ac) or one that gave +1,+1,-1 you would probably choose the first. That is what the skald gives. Who would take basic over that?

The standard bard song seems good when your party is falling apart and the like of Khalid and Garrick are running around screaming. Or if a mage drops fear on the party (hoping your bard saves) it is a quick tap to restore order and then back to fighting.

szb

deltago said:

Actually this makes standard bards more playable imo.

If you had to choose between a song that gave +2,+2, -2 (hit, dmg, ac) or one that gave +1,+1,-1 you would probably choose the first. That is what the skald gives. Who would take basic over that?

The standard bard song seems good when your party is falling apart and the like of Khalid and Garrick are running around screaming. Or if a mage drops fear on the party (hoping your bard saves) it is a quick tap to restore order and then back to fighting.

I played BG a long time ago so don't realy remember but how often was that morale broke? And how common were mages using the fear spell?

Riolathel

Do bards not get more than one song?..

Logically that makes no sense.. I mean you would think these traveling musicians would have more in their repertoire than just one song.

I liked how IWD2 did it.. My bard kicked so much ass; even if he was just singing half the time

Worg

I seem to recall Kaigan breaking when his health was low.

Pantalion

To be fair, Bards were fairly terrible in the first place, removing the pitiful bonus doesn't really do anything on that front.

Dee

@Riolathel
The idea is less that they have one song, and more that the pure act of singing is what grants the bonus.

chickenhed

Riolathel said:

Do bards not get more than one song?..

Logically that makes no sense.. I mean you would think these traveling musicians would have more in their repertoire than just one song.

I liked how IWD2 did it.. My bard kicked so much ass; even if he was just singing half the time

Yeah.... they don't. I had forgotten about IWD and the multiple songs. Sigh. Bards are my favourite class in BG even WITHOUT multiple songs. What a blast that would be in BG, to be able to choose a different song for different situations. Add even more versatility to the most versatile class.

Kore

Moral was only ever an issue when you had Khalid and it was never an issue to put protection from fear on him since any caster or paladin could memorise it as a level 1 spell. I would very rarely even use Khalid on the front line anyway, i'd usually give him the Bracers of Dex and max out his bow proficiencies.

Riolathel

Yeah and the feats from 3rd edition turned bards into very useful characters.. mine kept my group alive most of the game and allowed me to actually use my cleric's offensive spells instead of spam healing/buffing.

There was a feat called lingering song that allowed your song's effects to continue for 2-3 rounds. You could switch back and forth between two songs.. or play a song, then cast a spell or two and not lose the effect so long as you went back to singing. It made playing a bard very entertaining

Pantalion

Oh yeah, by the end of 3.5 edition, Bards could be built with the correct mix of race, feats and spells to give all party members +20D6 energy damage or something silly. Personally I think the NWN2 bard with their mixture of infinite Inspirations and "special" one use songs was the best, especially because Curse Song was one of the best things in the game.

... And then there was the build where you got a Bard with full level 9 cleric spellcasting, full Bard music only a level or two behind a full Bard, the ability to throw lightning bolts every single turn for 20D6 damage, save for half, and the Base Attack Bonus only six points behind a full level 30 Fighter before buffs.

But I digress; in BG a Bard is basically a Fighter/Mage/Thief that sacrifices worthwhile thief skills, the ability to attack more than once, the ability to specialise, and the ability to get spells above level 6, ever.... In exchange for the ability to waste their turn singing rather than actually doing anything and a slightly faster level progression.

elminster

Pantalion said:

Oh yeah, by the end of 3.5 edition, Bards could be built with the correct mix of race, feats and spells to give all party members +20D6 energy damage or something silly. Personally I think the NWN2 bard with their mixture of infinite Inspirations and "special" one use songs was the best, especially because Curse Song was one of the best things in the game.

... And then there was the build where you got a Bard with full level 9 cleric spellcasting, full Bard music only a level or two behind a full Bard, the ability to throw lightning bolts every single turn for 20D6 damage, save for half, and the Base Attack Bonus only six points behind a full level 30 Fighter before buffs.

But I digress; in BG a Bard is basically a Fighter/Mage/Thief that sacrifices worthwhile thief skills, the ability to attack more than once, the ability to specialise, and the ability to get spells above level 6, ever.... In exchange for the ability to waste their turn singing rather than actually doing anything and a slightly faster level progression.

Plus they can turn things to stone by using chromatic orb. Take that loot.

Riolathel

chromatic orb is a life saver... Definitely a must have for a bard..

i always favored the stun that it gets at higher levels

Tanthalas

The truth is that the Bard song never gave any luck bonus, that's basically just an urban myth.

The description now reflects what the bard song actually did.

Forse

They're still stronger than most single classes, though. Especially the Blade.

LordsDarkKnight185

*Waits as patiently as he can for Rogue Rebalancing to be updated*

TJ_Hooker

I believe that either BG2 fixpack or tweak pack changed the song to better fit the description (ie actually provide a bonus to luck and increase at higher levels). Since I believe both these mods will be compatible shortly after release, with any luck those expecting a bonus to luck will be able to get it soon.

crawlkill

My favorite part is that those three effects are goddamn redundant. Protection From Fear already covers Remove Fear and setting morale to 10. Nonsense.