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Beamdog folks - was un-fixing the hitpoint progression a deliberate decision?

Markus_RamikinMarkus_Ramikin Member Posts: 25
In original PS:T as well as the current unmodded EE version, it matters which class you gain a level in first. A Nameless One fighter gets a max of 10 hitpoints per level, a mage gets 4. This...:

1. Contradicts the manual:
The Nameless One only gains hit points when he gains a level in a class that’s higher
than the maximum level he’s achieved in any of his other classes. For example, he
starts off as a level three fighter and a level one mage and thief. When he gains
enough experience to become a second level mage he won’t get any more hit points
because his mage level (two) is still lower or equal to his fighter level (three). When
the Nameless One gains an experience level higher than three, then he’ll start to
accrue more hit points (always 1-10 hit points per level).

2. Adds an excessive metagaming aspect.

If you want to maximise your HP, the optimal thing to do is to watch carefully which class you level up first, not just for levels 7 and 12 where you get the specialisations, but at all times. That's just silly. You also need to level up all classes, because you get extra hitpoints for that as well.

It should be possible to care about maximising the power of your character, and still JUST play the game in your favourite class.

It's important to understand that this is not a case of "well, if you wanna play a mage, you'll have fewer hitpoints, that's how the class works". Because the TNO isn't like a normal character that commits to a class, with all its pros and cons. You can have a TNO who is at the same time a level 18 fighter and level 18 mage, and with vastly different hitpoints depending on which class you levelled up first.

You could say PS:T is for story and isn't for powergaming, but the EE base game itself contains the "max hitpoint per level" tweak precisely so that people wouldn't feel the need to reload to not feel cheated out of hitpoints, so clearly the game already tries to acknowledge that people feel that way.

This was fixed by the Fixpack, but apparently EE didn't implement this fix. My question: is that a simple omission or is there a reason for it?

Whichever it was, I'd be good to see it changed to what the manual tells us.

Post edited by Markus_Ramikin on


  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 813
    I'm not sure abt the manual, but in-game, it is how it should be, i.e., HP progression depends on the class.

  • Markus_RamikinMarkus_Ramikin Member Posts: 25
    edited December 2018
    Just to illustrate, currently the optimal order of classes to first reach a particular level is, e.g. for a mage:

    levels 4-6 - fighter first (1-10 Hit Die)
    7 - mage (specialisation)
    8-9 - fighter (1-10 Hit Die)
    10 - thief (because fighter doesn't get a Hit Die at level 10, but Thief does)
    11 - fighter (no HD any more, but +3)
    12 - mage (specialisation)
    13 and higher - fighter (+3)

    Tell me this isn't a tortured character design. In the Fixpack it was simple: just play the class you want.
    Illustair said:

    I'm not sure abt the manual, but in-game, it is how it should be, i.e., HP progression depends on the class.

    I believe I addressed that notion. TNO's unique class-switching mechanics throw that logic out the window. If TNO was a standard AD&D double-classed character, like Dak'kon or Annah, then yeah. Then you wouldn't have two versions with the exactly the same class levels but wildly different hitpoints / Hit Die ranges depending on the order in which you levelled your classes.

    Post edited by Markus_Ramikin on
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 813
    I'm new to the game and I'm still at my first playthrough but if I'm not mistaken, specialization class does not work that way. You must level up that particular class from level 1 to 7 then to 12. So, if it is a mage specialization that you are after, then say you have 1-6 as a fighter, then another 1-7 as a mage. It's not "choose a specialization class" at aggregated level. I could be wrong, but that's how I understood it. So, there's no excessive metagaming at play here; just pure game mechanics that at levels 7 and 12 of that particular class, you'd be considered as having specialized at that particular class.

    That said, I cannot see how the "that's how the class works" system should not be made to apply to TNO just because he can switch between classes. It has to be pointed out also that exp points, while you can farm, do not come easy. You can only level up to a certain extent or at least until when your patience runs out if you're into farming or grinding. So, it is not a matter of "why would it matter which class you level up first when you practically have 3 classes and you can simply switch between them." At any rate, look at it this way - if HP increase is fixed at 10/level. Don't you find it absurd that TNO say at level 10 primarily as a mage would have the same HP as a level 10 TNO primarily as a fighter? Whether you look at it from powergaming or roleplaying standpoint, that's just absurd. It matters because that's simply how the system works, regardless of style of playing and regardless of the fact that TNO can switch between classes. It goes against the very concept of the classes. Simply put, it's "level up as a mage? Then you are more squishy. Level up as a fighter? Then you are more sturdy." I cannot see why it should be different for TNO just because he can switch between classes. Like I said, I think it is how it should be, i.e., HP progression depends on class chosen.

    As to the "max HP per level" option, it is just that really. You have the same option in BG and IWD.

  • Markus_RamikinMarkus_Ramikin Member Posts: 25
    edited December 2018
    Yes, that is indeed how specialisations work. Obviously the optimal levelling listed above is not meant to imply aggregate leveling, but rather "which class should reach a particular level first to maximise HP gained". I didn't spell it out, but I was referencing things long well known (examine the relevant 2DA files too, if you haven't). But I'll edit to make it clearer.

    And no, getting at least those first 9-10 levels (which is where you're still getting the full Hit Dice) in every class is trivial, and sacrifices very little from your main class, because of how hard the levelling costs scale. With only a little efficient farming of the Modron Maze, or even better, Undersigil, you can leave Sigil for the first time at 12/12/12 or higher. Besides, quest rewards scale hard too, towards the end of the game; once you've actually finished the game, you'll see that even with little or no farming it's possible to reach reasonably high levels in all classes.

    So yeah, "it goes against the concept of classes", but the point of TNO's design is that he is NOT committed to a class, forced to take the good with the bad. There is no such thing as "class chosen". I actually wouldn't mind if you could only multiclass him normally and had to apply the normal rules, because that would be clear. But he is unique in that he is an immortal amnesiac who's been all those classes before, many times, and the foundations are within him, just forgotten.

    And the obvious reason why the original intention, as per the manual, was to award a 1-10 Hit Die per level, was to avoid these kind of silly shenanigans, where your mage/fighter with 250k exp in both classes (respectively level 10 and 9) will have (assuming for simplicity max HP tweak) 62 hitpoints because he levelled Mage first, or 92 because he levelled Fighter first. And 250k exp is trivial to get.

    Note that the sort of mage character I'm making now in EE will have MORE hitpoints than my character in classic + Fixpack, especially in the early-middle game where it matter the most. Because besides getting fighter Hit Dice, I'm also getting extra hitpoints from the second and third class... in Fixpack (as per manual) you received hitpoints on reaching a level only once.

    Forgive me if this is impolite, but may I suggest you at the absolute minimum finish the game before you start engaging in arguments that touch on balance and metagaming and what is and isn't difficult? As someone who's been playing this game for over a decade I'm finding this a little absurd.

    Post edited by Markus_Ramikin on
  • Markus_RamikinMarkus_Ramikin Member Posts: 25

    When pressing "Level Up" once to gain multiple levels, if any of those levels was a "new" level, you gained a full hit die for old levels too. (scient)

    This is unfixed in EE, to my surprise. I'll check redmine later to see if this is known, gotta sleep.

  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 813
    edited December 2018
    Ah, alright I'm starting to see it from your perspective that he is an amnesiac immortal. And the receiving HP only once per level, not per class level, if that's the case, does make

    Edit: But wouldn't the fact that you can farm anyway indefinitely later on requires metagaming? And even if you are simply reliving your life, the fact is you are reliving at that very moment a particular class, and also, the experience gained sufficient to level up is for that particular class, so, I may be missing the point but why should it be d10 again and not for that particular class? Tbh, I don't think the manual is authoritative on such matter. Had they really wanted to pursue such intention, they could have easily done so; but they didn't, and the manual probably simply didn't reflect the change. But fair enough, I'll finish the game first. Still figuring out how I can meet Ravel.

    Anyway, that's just my opinion; I'm far from knowledgeable on this. Let's call on someone who is. @JuliusBorisov

    Post edited by Illustair on
  • Markus_RamikinMarkus_Ramikin Member Posts: 25
    edited December 2018
    But wouldn't the fact that you can farm anyway indefinitely later on requires metagaming?

    Uh, yeah, that's part of my point.
    2. Adds an excessive metagaming aspect.

    If a player wants to maximise hitpoints, they have to do things like that. And a player who does everything right by common sense but does not have metagame knowledge may end up in exactly the same spot (regarding class-levels) as someone else and have significantly lower hitpoints. The game rewards metagamey, otherwise unnatural, character manipulation. That's not a good thing!

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 16,755
    This is a question about the game design, or maybe this is a question about how the engine works. I'm still trying to get an answer from the developers on this. Meanwhile, @Markus_Ramikin feel free to create a report about it at - maybe this way it will be faster for our triage team to look at the issue from the OP.

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