Jebus, I had forgotten how bad the spirit eater BS in MOTB was. Sure if you were lawful good it wasn't terrible, but if you you're role playing evil it was just a ridiculous punishment. The whole thing felt like a stupid hook, and the hook is hack. It's like how can we gimp just your character, not anybody else, just your character. The worst part was playing as evil had all the best most interesting options story-wise.
Kingmaker's the best RPG I've played in a long while. If you just play the game you'll find that the timers are no big deal. They're less opaque than the werewolf island or Lothander quests in Baldur's Gate. On default settings it is possible to lose if you mismanage your kingdom, but if that bothers you it's easy to check the box for indestructible kingdom, and if that aspect still isn't your cup of tea, you can just turn off kingdom management altogether. Also, I've been playing the beta, and the load times are massively reduced now. When the 1.2 update drops, it would be a great time to get into the game.
what state is the game in now? does it still have bugs that break the game? and when this 1.2 patch comes, will it make an astronomical difference? if so, i think im going to give king maker a shot
realistically i've spent more money on supper for myself than it will cost to buy this game, so worse case scenario when it becomes more stable as @jjstraka34 mentioned, i wouldn't mind giving it a go and if it's crap, oh well, at least i will have it till the end of time
NWN2 definitely works on Windows 10. No need for an EE for that.
It's camera is and remains absolute garbage, and even on a GTX 1060 I have to turn shadows off to get a stable framerate, but it remains easy enough to get working I suppose. The interface and camera is just so, so much worse than it's predecessor that it can't possibly be overstated. Moreover, part of the reason the first game got remastered was to help the modding and persistent world community live on into the future (or that is at least ostensibly the goal). Neverwinter Nights 2 doesn't have a community worth preserving. The amount of worthwhile modules can be counted on two hands. It's entire reputation rests of Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir.
@sarevok57 The completely game breaking bugs in Kingmaker have all pretty much been addressed by now on the stable version. They have broken some stuff in the 1.2 beta, but that's what betas are for, and although I can't get to a couple optional areas, it's nothing that's broken the game for me (the areas work in the stable version). There's a lot of cleanup that's happend in 1.2, but the decreased load times are the biggest deal. There's also some little quality of life touches, like mousing over the icon to manage your kingdom in your throne room will show a red exclamation point if there's new events, so you don't have to load the kingdom management screen just to check that. They also have some better warnings about when a certain event that you need to take care of each chapter will pop up. You can also pull advisors off events and projects if you need to now. Some of the earlier patches also fixed up some stuff with the last chapter, so it's not insanely difficult anymore. 1.2 Would be a great time to get into it, but I'm not sure when the stable version of it will drop.
@jjstraka34 For me the crazy amount of options is a blessing. I love the vast amount of different possible builds, party combos and alignment choices and it makes the game really replayable. It's not that terribly different than 3rd ed, but does have a fair amount added on top of it, especially when you throw all the archetypes in (they're like kits for each class). If you're frozen up on the complexity during character creation, you can always be something straightforward, like a fighter or paladin. That way you can just learn as you play with the companions.
Their forums aren't very active, so a lot of info there's stale. Steam boards are... well they're steam boards, half the posts there are from people not reading or complaining about a feature you can completely disable. I've seen posts about how the game's a waste of time because it gave them a side quest, there.
NWN2 definitely works on Windows 10. No need for an EE for that.
It's camera is and remains absolute garbage, and even on a GTX 1060 I have to turn shadows off to get a stable framerate, but it remains easy enough to get working I suppose. The interface and camera is just so, so much worse than it's predecessor that it can't possibly be overstated. Moreover, part of the reason the first game got remastered was to help the modding and persistent world community live on into the future (or that is at least ostensibly the goal). Neverwinter Nights 2 doesn't have a community worth preserving. The amount of worthwhile modules can be counted on two hands. It's entire reputation rests of Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir.
Storm of Zehir is what I use it for. I agree the rest of it is marginal at best but SoZ is more than worth the price of purchase imho (especially now that it's only about $20).
So I guess that means you guys refuse to play Baldur's Gate, because of the timed quests? The timed quests in BG are way harsher than in Kingmaker, and not that well defined about how much time you actually have. It's also game over if they trigger and you don't do them.
Nice strawman, good job! Clearly having a few timed quests spread across several games is the same as an entire game under timer! No, we don't like the Marek/Lothander quest. We also don't like Ust Natha. I sure as hell don't and just slaughter everyone inside nowadays. But again they are a drop in the ocean that is Baldur's Gate.
Edit: and yeah the Spirit Eater curse was awful. I dislike MotB as a whole but this part was especially bad.
NWN2 definitely works on Windows 10. No need for an EE for that.
It's camera is and remains absolute garbage, and even on a GTX 1060 I have to turn shadows off to get a stable framerate, but it remains easy enough to get working I suppose. The interface and camera is just so, so much worse than it's predecessor that it can't possibly be overstated. Moreover, part of the reason the first game got remastered was to help the modding and persistent world community live on into the future (or that is at least ostensibly the goal). Neverwinter Nights 2 doesn't have a community worth preserving. The amount of worthwhile modules can be counted on two hands. It's entire reputation rests of Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir.
Storm of Zehir is what I use it for. I agree the rest of it is marginal at best but SoZ is more than worth the price of purchase imho (especially now that it's only about $20).
speaking about SoZ i was playing that today, on my brand new PC with windows 10, it was a little tricky at first to get the RES to work properly, but i have full screen working without a hitch, and the only main problem im seeing is that the mouse scroll speed of having the mouse on the side of the screen is slower than snails in molasses even on max speed, luckily if i hold down on the mouse button i can spin 'er around fast enough to make it work, plus this time 'round, i installed a mountain of mods, and this is the first time ever that i have never seen the open bazaar not lag when coming into the city, although a 9900k and ROG rtx 2080 ti probably helps
@sarevok57 The completely game breaking bugs in Kingmaker have all pretty much been addressed by now on the stable version. They have broken some stuff in the 1.2 beta, but that's what betas are for, and although I can't get to a couple optional areas, it's nothing that's broken the game for me (the areas work in the stable version). There's a lot of cleanup that's happend in 1.2, but the decreased load times are the biggest deal. There's also some little quality of life touches, like mousing over the icon to manage your kingdom in your throne room will show a red exclamation point if there's new events, so you don't have to load the kingdom management screen just to check that. They also have some better warnings about when a certain event that you need to take care of each chapter will pop up. You can also pull advisors off events and projects if you need to now. Some of the earlier patches also fixed up some stuff with the last chapter, so it's not insanely difficult anymore. 1.2 Would be a great time to get into it, but I'm not sure when the stable version of it will drop.
@jjstraka34 For me the crazy amount of options is a blessing. I love the vast amount of different possible builds, party combos and alignment choices and it makes the game really replayable. It's not that terribly different than 3rd ed, but does have a fair amount added on top of it, especially when you throw all the archetypes in (they're like kits for each class). If you're frozen up on the complexity during character creation, you can always be something straightforward, like a fighter or paladin. That way you can just learn as you play with the companions.
Their forums aren't very active, so a lot of info there's stale. Steam boards are... well they're steam boards, half the posts there are from people not reading or complaining about a feature you can completely disable. I've seen posts about how the game's a waste of time because it gave them a side quest, there.
ah yes, well i will have to keep my eyes peeled for it then, i still won't mind giving it a go, but i would like a stable playing experience if i could
So I guess that means you guys refuse to play Baldur's Gate, because of the timed quests? The timed quests in BG are way harsher than in Kingmaker, and not that well defined about how much time you actually have. It's also game over if they trigger and you don't do them.
Nice strawman, good job! Clearly having a few timed quests spread across several games is the same as an entire game under timer! No, we don't like the Marek/Lothander quest. We also don't like Ust Natha. I sure as hell don't and just slaughter everyone inside nowadays. But again they are a drop in the ocean that is Baldur's Gate.
Edit: and yeah the Spirit Eater curse was awful. I dislike MotB as a whole but this part was especially bad.
I do wish people would play a game before spouting off complaints based of second hand "fake news". The whole game is NOT under a timer. Approximately 1/8th of the game is under a timer, but that is a "fake timer" since you would run out of things to do long before you ran out of time.
I do wish people would play a game before spouting off complaints based of second hand "fake news". The whole game is NOT under a timer. Approximately 1/8th of the game is under a timer, but that is a "fake timer" since you would run out of things to do long before you ran out of time.
Then what is under a timer? How does the game decides to transition to a new chapter?
That timer issue is one of the things the most discussed about in this game. Whether it's on Owlcat's forums or Steam almost every day you see popping a thread about it and how quest x and y had no indication you had only z number of days to do and so on. And the basic reply given by the game's fans is "deal with it, it's realistic". So yeah you'll forgive us if we don't want to shell money on a game whose core design seems to incorporate a concept we hate.
If we're wrong tell us! What exactly *is* timed in this game?
I would call it a schedule, rather than a timer. You are playing the game, exploring the world and running your country when something happens that you should deal with, such as being invited to a tournament. But it's never so urgent that you have to drop what you are in the middle of, and it never happens in such a way as to lock out content. And it certainly never kills you out of the blue like the Marek/Lothander quest, which I agree is absolutely awful.
But refusing to look at a game because a timed quest in a different game was badly implemented is as irrational as refusing to look at it because it includes the colour blue and the sky once fell on your head.
Ok. I don't think you understand what I'm saying. Might be my bad English, might be something else but whatever. I've argued enough with you in the past to know we'll start going in circles soon so last attempt at conveying my meaning.
It doesn't matter if you call it a schedule or a timer. It doesn't matter if it doesn't kill you instantly. It doesn't matter if it locks out content or not. What does matter is this: is there, at any point, a moment when the player is in control of the game flow? When nothing happens at all unless the player wishes it so, either by talking to a specific character or by going at a certain place? If the answer is "yes" then I stand corrected. If it's "no" then it does mean the entire game is under timer. An irrelevant one in your eyes maybe but for a lot of people this part is actually important.
As for your last sentence, nobody actually said this in the thread and you know it perfectly.
Honestly, the problem I have with Kingmaker is that every time I go to make a character I feel like a I just cracked a goddamn calculus book. I've dealt with plenty of character creation systems (though I admit it's my least favorite part of the CRPG experience, I often use default parties and branch them out in game through leveling). 3rd Edition is one thing, but I honestly feel like I need a frickin' Pathfinder Player's Handbook sitting next to me to even remotely actually understand what is going on. And I don't play tabletop RPGs. I like reading about them, I like looking at source books. But the reason I play CRPGs is because I don't like the human interaction all that much. Baldur's Gate was revolutionary because it's NPCs so clearly were meant as stand-ins for other players. I don't doubt Pathfinder has that feeling too (it very well may), but the character creation is just so unbearably obtuse that I just lose all hope before I even get past the second page. Not to mention that no matter how many patches come out, there is still nothing but comments on the Steam page and forums but people having dozens if not hundreds of hours lost because of broken quests or other technical issues. The game's stability just isn't there right now, and if I am going to commit myself to the level of intricacy that is needed to play a 100+ hour games in this kind of (let's be honest) advanced-level rule-set, I want to know I'll be able to have a smooth experience. I own the game, I don't regret buying it, shit, I even bought the Season Pass. But I'm not diving into this deep of a pool until I know the waters are smooth.
Yeah this critique is very legit. Even I, as someone who's played Pathfinder pnp a lot, still struggle with this.
A good dungeon master or game developer will let the player control the flow of events, and reactively make things happen that seem to be on an independent schedule, which gives the sense of a bigger world.
BG2 did that. The "hurry up and follow Imoen but wait do a bunch of quests first!" in chapter 2 was bad, but the game did it well in a lot of other places. E.g. the cut-scene with Irenicus meeting the drow - you had the sense of being not far behind him, no matter how long you were taking. The Planar Sphere quest too. Lots of examples.
It's about using your power as the storyteller to create an illusion, rather than forcing the player to actually hew to an artificial schedule. Sounds like the Kingmaker devs don't quite get that.
A good dungeon master causes their players' choices to have consequences. If they choose to do nothing, not react to a crisis, not go and fight the dragon that is attacking the city at the time it is attacking the city, then there should be consequences.
If a player's decision not to act has no effect on the outcome, then there is no game, they are just listening to someone tell a story.
The writers of Kingmaker do an excellent job of giving you genuine choices about how to respond to a crisis, whilst still allowing you plenty of freedom to explore every nook and cranny of a sizable game world.
But refusing to look at a game because a timed quest in a different game was badly implemented is as irrational as refusing to look at it because it includes the colour blue and the sky once fell on your head.
Cognitive dissonance is tough to break through. Kudos to you for having the patience I don't to at least try. I'd rather spend my time engaging with folks like @sarevok57 and @jjstraka34 who have thoughtful questions and skepticism but are open to information and arguments.
There isn't a timer on the 2nd Chapter of BG2. It's slightly weird to be spending the bulk of the game running around doing random shit while she is in mortal danger, but there IS a reason, which is making money to pay off the Thieves Guild. But I never felt rushed. My biggest problem is with people like Kivan, who will leave the party if you don't high-tail it to the Bandit Camp.
So I guess that means you guys refuse to play Baldur's Gate, because of the timed quests? The timed quests in BG are way harsher than in Kingmaker, and not that well defined about how much time you actually have. It's also game over if they trigger and you don't do them.
Nice strawman, good job! Clearly having a few timed quests spread across several games is the same as an entire game under timer! No, we don't like the Marek/Lothander quest. We also don't like Ust Natha. I sure as hell don't and just slaughter everyone inside nowadays. But again they are a drop in the ocean that is Baldur's Gate.
Edit: and yeah the Spirit Eater curse was awful. I dislike MotB as a whole but this part was especially bad.
It's not a strawman. You said specifically that it was a matter of principle to not play a game with timed quests in it. I pointed out a game I figured you played that had timed quests in it. I'm sorry if that upset you.
Patch 1.2 just came out, so now's a great time to get into the game.
hmm, i think i have a solution to this "timer" problem:
the bg series can in fact have "terrible" timers ( the only one i find is bad is the kivan one ) but other than that, not too bad, BUT the thing is, we have played the bg series so many times for so many years, it is no longer a bother because we know exactly where to go and what to do and shazam, timer over life goes on
with king maker, we now have a fresh new game and we basically have no idea what to expect ( think of it as playing bg for the very first time and how diabolic it was at times ) and this is exactly what king maker is, something fresh and new with its own perhaps " more diabolic" type stuff, but i would bet that if you play king maker a billion times you will laugh at all these "diabolical" areas just like you do in the bg series because you will know this game in and out
for me, when i go to play king maker ( after that patch comes out ) i will start with a powerful two handed weapon wielding warrior to pick up slack for the guaranteed weaker team mates, and then after that play through is done and i have a real feel for the game, i will have another play through where i can play a cleric/mage sort of character, or perhaps something more cooky, since it looks like king maker has a whole bunch of interesting class options
hmm, i think i have a solution to this "timer" problem:
the bg series can in fact have "terrible" timers ( the only one i find is bad is the kivan one ) but other than that, not too bad, BUT the thing is, we have played the bg series so many times for so many years, it is no longer a bother because we know exactly where to go and what to do and shazam, timer over life goes on
with king maker, we now have a fresh new game and we basically have no idea what to expect ( think of it as playing bg for the very first time and how diabolic it was at times ) and this is exactly what king maker is, something fresh and new with its own perhaps " more diabolic" type stuff, but i would bet that if you play king maker a billion times you will laugh at all these "diabolical" areas just like you do in the bg series because you will know this game in and out
for me, when i go to play king maker ( after that patch comes out ) i will start with a powerful two handed weapon wielding warrior to pick up slack for the guaranteed weaker team mates, and then after that play through is done and i have a real feel for the game, i will have another play through where i can play a cleric/mage sort of character, or perhaps something more cooky, since it looks like king maker has a whole bunch of interesting class options
Most of the companions are actually built really well for what they do. I disliked that aspect of the PoE games because none of the companions felt like they were particularly good at anything. I have fond memories of Shar-Teel or Minsc chunking things or saving my party's butts. Most of the henchmen aren't min-maxed, but have a good set of stats for what they do. Some of them are even setup to easily go to prestige classes if you want.
I agree 100% about laughing at the timers once you know your way around. I've fully finished the game twice, and had several partial runs, and they're no big deal at all.
The thing with BG's timers, is they are all either for minor things (This character needs x) or are readily available (the thing is on the same map or just ajacent). No-where does BG pull the crap "Finish this chapter or its game over. I can handle having two weeks to pop one map over and talk to some npc (the game even tells you exactly where to go and what to do in each instance). Kingmaker seems outright afraid to let the player have any a control of the game flow.
There isn't a timer on the 2nd Chapter of BG2. It's slightly weird to be spending the bulk of the game running around doing random shit while she is in mortal danger, but there IS a reason, which is making money to pay off the Thieves Guild. But I never felt rushed. My biggest problem is with people like Kivan, who will leave the party if you don't high-tail it to the Bandit Camp.
no. because it suffers from the "take your time" trope that alot of rpgs do. no matter how long it takes you to get to spellhold you will not make it in time as the story said so.
I agree timers are a stupid mechanic in a CRPG. It was bad in Fallout with the water chip too. I understand the underlying reasons WHY you have to return with the chip in x amount of days, but this does not need to be conveyed by a literal calendar counting down. And as the above poster stated, it doesn't matter WHEN you get to Spellhold, because it is always too late. And there is nothing wrong with that.
because it suffers from the "take your time" trope that alot of rpgs do. no matter how long it takes you to get to spellhold you will not make it in time as the story said so.
it doesn't matter WHEN you get to Spellhold, because it is always too late. And there is nothing wrong with that.
Chapter 2 is an example of that trope - which is why I use the mod that turns Imoen to stone at the Promenade fight.
But always arriving at Spellhold too late is an example of what BG2 does exactly right. The players cannot control what happens off-screen, so they cannot stop the game from making them arrive at the opportune dramatic moment.
I mean imagine if there was a timer, and if you spent too long in chapter 2 Irenicus finds another bhaalspawn and the game just left you behind? That would be realistic... but terrible DMing. The DM/game devs are the authors of the game's narrative; they should use that exalted position to force the players into what in normal life would seem like monumental coincidences.
actually, speaking about that, i believe if im not mistaken there was supposedly another bhaal spawn that was to be involved and that bhaal spawn was going to be the major one, and your character was just basically there for the lulz
but time constraints got in the way and they deleted him out altogether, there was a mod waaaay back in the day that brought the other dude in and he was wearing the boots of extreme speed or something, but all i remember doing is whacking him, grabbing his booties and no one was the wiser
There is already a ridiculous amount of ways things can play out in BG2. The idea that Spellhold would change based on how many in-game days you pass in Chapter 2 would just be one more. Interesting?? I guess, but it's just something else people would likely mod out. You have tons of agency in the game. You can flat-out SKIP the underwater city before the Underdark. It's an entire part of the game you don't have to interact with. In Ust Natha, you can either play along with the Drow societal games, or you can just murder everyone in sight. Both will eventually get you where you need to go. The Shade Dragon in Chapter 2?? Either use the cloak mechanic provided, or try to take him on. The choice is yours. Hell, the whole point of having SO much content in Chapter 2 is so you can either do the bare minimum to get to Spellhold, or all of it should your heart desire. Sure, there are parts of the game where you get rail-roaded, but that's just how 99% of games work. The two major parts of the game (that being Chapter 2 and the Underdark) are quite open-ended.
also on that note, you don't even have to do all the quests in chapter 2, you can always finish them off in chapter 6 or even 7 if you REALLY want to ( or you can do them in chapter 3 right after when you finish aran/bodhi's stuff, which is what i usually do )
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realistically i've spent more money on supper for myself than it will cost to buy this game, so worse case scenario when it becomes more stable as @jjstraka34 mentioned, i wouldn't mind giving it a go and if it's crap, oh well, at least i will have it till the end of time
@jjstraka34 For me the crazy amount of options is a blessing. I love the vast amount of different possible builds, party combos and alignment choices and it makes the game really replayable. It's not that terribly different than 3rd ed, but does have a fair amount added on top of it, especially when you throw all the archetypes in (they're like kits for each class). If you're frozen up on the complexity during character creation, you can always be something straightforward, like a fighter or paladin. That way you can just learn as you play with the companions.
Their forums aren't very active, so a lot of info there's stale. Steam boards are... well they're steam boards, half the posts there are from people not reading or complaining about a feature you can completely disable. I've seen posts about how the game's a waste of time because it gave them a side quest, there.
Edit: and yeah the Spirit Eater curse was awful. I dislike MotB as a whole but this part was especially bad.
However, it is basically the same system as NWN2.
That timer issue is one of the things the most discussed about in this game. Whether it's on Owlcat's forums or Steam almost every day you see popping a thread about it and how quest x and y had no indication you had only z number of days to do and so on. And the basic reply given by the game's fans is "deal with it, it's realistic". So yeah you'll forgive us if we don't want to shell money on a game whose core design seems to incorporate a concept we hate.
If we're wrong tell us! What exactly *is* timed in this game?
But refusing to look at a game because a timed quest in a different game was badly implemented is as irrational as refusing to look at it because it includes the colour blue and the sky once fell on your head.
It doesn't matter if you call it a schedule or a timer.
It doesn't matter if it doesn't kill you instantly.
It doesn't matter if it locks out content or not.
What does matter is this: is there, at any point, a moment when the player is in control of the game flow? When nothing happens at all unless the player wishes it so, either by talking to a specific character or by going at a certain place?
If the answer is "yes" then I stand corrected. If it's "no" then it does mean the entire game is under timer. An irrelevant one in your eyes maybe but for a lot of people this part is actually important.
As for your last sentence, nobody actually said this in the thread and you know it perfectly.
If a player's decision not to act has no effect on the outcome, then there is no game, they are just listening to someone tell a story.
The writers of Kingmaker do an excellent job of giving you genuine choices about how to respond to a crisis, whilst still allowing you plenty of freedom to explore every nook and cranny of a sizable game world.
Patch 1.2 just came out, so now's a great time to get into the game.
the bg series can in fact have "terrible" timers ( the only one i find is bad is the kivan one ) but other than that, not too bad, BUT the thing is, we have played the bg series so many times for so many years, it is no longer a bother because we know exactly where to go and what to do and shazam, timer over life goes on
with king maker, we now have a fresh new game and we basically have no idea what to expect ( think of it as playing bg for the very first time and how diabolic it was at times ) and this is exactly what king maker is, something fresh and new with its own perhaps " more diabolic" type stuff, but i would bet that if you play king maker a billion times you will laugh at all these "diabolical" areas just like you do in the bg series because you will know this game in and out
for me, when i go to play king maker ( after that patch comes out ) i will start with a powerful two handed weapon wielding warrior to pick up slack for the guaranteed weaker team mates, and then after that play through is done and i have a real feel for the game, i will have another play through where i can play a cleric/mage sort of character, or perhaps something more cooky, since it looks like king maker has a whole bunch of interesting class options
I agree 100% about laughing at the timers once you know your way around. I've fully finished the game twice, and had several partial runs, and they're no big deal at all.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TakeYourTime
but time constraints got in the way and they deleted him out altogether, there was a mod waaaay back in the day that brought the other dude in and he was wearing the boots of extreme speed or something, but all i remember doing is whacking him, grabbing his booties and no one was the wiser