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Who do I leave behind in hell for YOUKNOWWHO?

So I finally got to ToB and I'd really like to take on YOUKNOWWHO for the RP, but I've been loving my party's balance, though I suspect there may be some things I don't know.
My party:
Me, a cavalier dual wielding FoA and Foebane or the mage-killing axe
Jaheira, dual wielding blackblood and belm
Valygar, dual wielding Celestial Fury and his family mage-killin katana
Keldorn, with carsomyr and firetooth crossbow when needed
Aerie, with Staff of magi
Imoen with Shortbow of Gesen and Short sword of Mask

1. I'm between ditching Keldorn and Valygar. Am I aiming at the right people?
Argument for keeping Keldorn: I know having two paladins is redundant, but I like having him on carsomyr and firing off those true sights and dispel magics, which frees me to use everything else, including that paladin bastard sword I hope to soon get. Whosoever uses Carsomyr uses nothing else.
Argument for keeping Valygar: He's unique to my party and quite malleable. I can sneak him in, backstab with katanas, and either chunk or really mess up the toughest mage before they stoneskin. I can stick him on the front line with armor of faith and go to town with the Impaler, which has typically made him one of my biggest damage dealers, or I can keep him in the back with the Mana Bow. I also have Ring of Kangaxx on him, so that improved haste + Celestial Fury and few enemies get more than a few hits out.

I lose Keldorn, I lose how I've been fighting mages, and will have to put pips in my guy to properly wield Carsomyr, and find someone else to put pips for FoA.

I lose Valygar, I lose my celestial fury stuns, backstabbery, and will have to put pips in someone for spears cuz I heard Ixils is amazing.

2. Which leads me to my second question in this long rant. If I've done the first 2 floors of Watchers's Keep, how feasible is dualing YOUKNOWWHO to thief, without cheating, to get some backstabbing, trap HLAs, and Use Any Item? At one point does backstabbing become impossible in ToB? And can Detect Illusion replace True Sight?

TL:DR Pros and Cons of ditching Valygar or Keldorn for YOUKNOWWHO and is dualing that person to thief worth it?

Skatan
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Comments

  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 629
    I have never dualed YOUKNOWWHO, so take that into the equation, but if you are going that route, then I would for sure ditch Valygar.

    Heck, I might ditch him anyway, but it does look out of balance that way.

    Being totally honest, I wouldn't mess up a party you are clearly enjoying. Do you need Mr ToB?

    Skatan
  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    No, it's not a need thing. I've never gotten to ToB, and it seems like the most interesting plot choice. I've heard rumors he is redeemable.

    Skatan
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 401
    Drop Valygar.. Keldorn is such a star all the way to the bitter end.

    There's no other npc in the entire game that i would be more likely to entrust my life to.. real life or in game xD

    Skatan
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,059
    also remember you know who is only going to be at 2.7 million XP the time you get him, so he might be under leveled when you get him

    this actually reminds me way back in the day when i had a fighter dualled over to mage charname and keldorn was my main two handed weapon tank, then he got upset when i turned into the ravager against wraith sarevok and he didn't like that, i didn't like his attitude, then keldorn went hostile, i cleaned the floor of his holiness

    it was actually almost convenient it happened, because just a few battles away there was someone there that could replace him, and it worked out perfectly because all the items that keldornious was wearing went to you know who and it was glorious, ah good times

    Skatan
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 854
    RP-wise I'm not sure a Paladin would take him along. Sure he's redeemable but that's what the player knows - the player character has no way of knowing.

    SkatangorgonzolaBelegCuthalion
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,059
    Kurona wrote: »
    RP-wise I'm not sure a Paladin would take him along. Sure he's redeemable but that's what the player knows - the player character has no way of knowing.

    but remember you know who makes in oath where he can't betray charname and you know who makes a good selling point that he is useful with his sword, and when it comes down to business if you have to use someone of a said alignment to help spread your lawful goodness and you know they won't betray you, perhaps you might turn the other cheek

    one way you could role play it is that your charname is actually going to try and redeem you know who for their misdeeds and perhaps one day will change the way on how you know who thinks about the world hence the possible redemption, even though charname doesn't know about the redemption, its a nice little RP element that would justify a paladin bring you know who along
    haha and seriously at this point do we have to call this chap "you know who"? im pretty sure everyone and their dog and their dog's fleas knows who we are talking about, but just for the lulz, i will keep it a secret ;)

    Skatangorgonzola
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 737
    Depends on the paladin. It's notlike there is one correct way to play one. And frankly, Sarevok's dialogues are the few opportunities in ToB to actually roleplay a good character.

    To the OP, I'd not recommend dual-classing Sarevok in a full party. I did in in a party of three, and even then it took a long time for him to regain fighter status.

    SkatanThacoBell
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 737
    Edit: I'm getting old(er), but where did the edit post button go? doesn't show up for me, whether I'm logged in on the phone or on the computer.

    Skatan
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 699
    @Kurona If you tell Sarevok you don't want him in your party he just walks straight out, presumably to do random evil things to random innocent passersby.
    So you have to either lie (yeah, sure, I'll take you along later, just not today), and then RP the Int17 guy to be sufficiently naive to believe you - or you need to murder him.

    Or you can just babysit him by taking him along and making sure he does good whenever he wants to do bad and making him go through daily smiling practice sessions.

    SkatanTraumaDrama
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 854
    @sarevok57 @chimaera @Humanoid_Taifun
    I agree with all of you but if the OP really likes his party as it is "I don't trust you" is a pretty valid reason to reject him for a Paladin. Iirc in 2e travelling with Evil characters could be grounds for losing paladinhood under most circumstances.

    Oh. And @TraumaDrama. If you do end up taking Big S. along keep Valygar. He has some interesting banter with him about redemption and second chances instead of being self-righteous.

    SkatanTraumaDramagorgonzola
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 401
    Given how events have already unfolded by the time you meet "you know who" (let's just called him Voldemort), i'd say any character of any alignment, could easily justify taking Voldemort along for the ride.

    He knows how shit works, and the cataclysmic events that are about to unfold are far beyond any one mans convictions.. Hell, i'd bet even Drizzt would show him mercy and take him along.
    He did with Artemis Entreri.

    Besides.. two paladins and one murdering maniac together, what could possibly go wrong?

    In any case, i'd say taking Voldemort along for the ride is worth it especially if it's your first time, as he will actually explain several things and give you more of the complete story that you might miss out on otherwise.

    Skatan
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 3,839
    I'd skip him and instead on your next run plan for it all along so that you already know who to leave behind. Similar to how many ppl, myself included, address the option in Spellhold for Imoen.

    If you really want him, I'd drop Valygar. Both Valy and Keldorn offer some anti-magery, but Keldorn's is more reliant. Valy's corthala family blade though is a true beast of a weapon. The bleed damage is almost too good and enchantment level doesn't matter as much vs mages.

    JLeeTraumaDrama
  • Oswald81Oswald81 Member Posts: 52
    Well you can have Sarry UAI and use that katana from Valy and down the road even have Sarry grandmaster in katanas for a bigger backstab than that meagre amount Valy can do, but you loose out on a lot of stuff for Sarry as I don't think katanas are that good due them rarely having enchantment +4 or more. That main stickingpoint for Sarry for backstab is his 3% at 200 dmg. I would have considered a built around Sarry with the Ravager personally. +6 enchantment, and you get 10% chance of killing your opponent automatically.

  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    Kurona wrote: »
    im pretty sure everyone and their dog and their dog's fleas knows who we are talking about

    Probably, but this is my first playthrough of ToB and I already stumbled on another spoiler which was very disappointing.

    As for why take him, most of you got it. He's alive, he's corporeal, and I don't trust him on his own. But when asked what he would do, there's obvious hesitation in his voice, and he admits that his mad ambitions died with Bhaal's taint (hehe), and now he doesn't even know what to do with himself. That probably means he doesn't have the murderous little devil on his shoulder, it just means he's now an asshole, whose sins have been avenged. This overambitious little do-gooder paladin can work with assholes. (hehe)

  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    Skatan wrote: »
    I'd skip him and instead on your next run plan for it all along so that you already know who to leave behind. Similar to how many ppl, myself included, address the option in Spellhold for Imoen.

    If you really want him, I'd drop Valygar. Both Valy and Keldorn offer some anti-magery, but Keldorn's is more reliant. Valy's corthala family blade though is a true beast of a weapon. The bleed damage is almost too good and enchantment level doesn't matter as much vs mages.

    That's actually great advice if I thought I'd be doing multiple playthroughs. It will probably be a few years before I play through again.

    Skatan
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,024
    I'd drop Keldorn, Youknowwho fulfills a similar role in the party (two handed smasher). You lose the super dispel, but there are other ways to get rid of mage protections. Plus, this way Keldorn gets to go back to his family!

    Oswald81
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 3,839
    Skatan wrote: »
    I'd skip him and instead on your next run plan for it all along so that you already know who to leave behind. Similar to how many ppl, myself included, address the option in Spellhold for Imoen.

    If you really want him, I'd drop Valygar. Both Valy and Keldorn offer some anti-magery, but Keldorn's is more reliant. Valy's corthala family blade though is a true beast of a weapon. The bleed damage is almost too good and enchantment level doesn't matter as much vs mages.

    That's actually great advice if I thought I'd be doing multiple playthroughs. It will probably be a few years before I play through again.

    Well, there's a reason so many of us in here play the game over and over - it's addictive. Who knows, maybe you will as well? ;)

    TraumaDramaJLeeThacoBell
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 737
    Eh, I've done multiple playthroughs of BG1 and BG2, but have finished ToB a grand total of two times. So I wouldn't wait. :p (I actually find it a bit annoying that you get Sarevok so late, because brother dearest is one of the most interesting npcs that can join your party.)

  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    Questions left unanswered:
    At one point does backstabbing become impossible in ToB?
    And can Detect Illusion replace True Sight?

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 699
    @TraumaDrama The most dangerous opponents (Abazigal, Yaga Shura, Balthazar, Demogorgon and !SPOILER!) are immune to backstabs (and assassinations). But all of them will have allies with them that should be vulnerable to backstabs.

    You can work with Detect Illusion and no True Sight, but True Sight (or any spell of the kind) is better in two ways: a) better range b) can be cast at any time of your choosing, rather than only working at the start of a round)
    I'm currently running a playthrough with just Detect Illusions, but I have backups, in case something goes wrong. Since you have multiple spellcasters with you, having a backup shouldn't be a problem though.

    TraumaDrama
  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    Awesome. Thanks! And thanks for not spoiling!

    Finally, IF I were to dual Voldemort, he starts out ready to level up to 18. Should I level him, and then dual, making it one more level to get in order to get him back to fighter, or should I level him at 17, wasting an insane amount of experience? Not sure I understand the game mechanics to make this call.

  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I'd drop Keldorn, Youknowwho fulfills a similar role in the party (two handed smasher). You lose the super dispel, but there are other ways to get rid of mage protections. Plus, this way Keldorn gets to go back to his family!

    Doesn't he get stuck in hell?

    JLee
  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 854
    Everything with a name is immune to backstab in ToB. Even the throwaway scummy merchant from a side quest in Saradush. The only thing you'll be able to backstab are minions though admittedly certain minions (read: mages) can be dangerous enough to warrant an alpha strike.

    The real weapon of thieves in Throne of Bhaal is the HLA traps. These things are ungodly powerful and unless you're fighting in a cramped room you can even set them during a battle.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I'd drop Keldorn, Youknowwho fulfills a similar role in the party (two handed smasher). You lose the super dispel, but there are other ways to get rid of mage protections. Plus, this way Keldorn gets to go back to his family!

    Doesn't he get stuck in hell?
    He does. You've already started the expansion so he'll stay inside the Pocket Plane until the end of the game.

    TraumaDramagorgonzola
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 401
    Awesome. Thanks! And thanks for not spoiling!

    Finally, IF I were to dual Voldemort, he starts out ready to level up to 18. Should I level him, and then dual, making it one more level to get in order to get him back to fighter, or should I level him at 17, wasting an insane amount of experience? Not sure I understand the game mechanics to make this call.



    lvl 17 fighter = 2.250000xp
    lvl 18 fighter = 2.500000xp

    lvl 35 thief = 5.500000xp
    lvl 36 thief = 5.720000xp

    xp cap is 8.000000xp

    2.5m+5.5m=8m
    2.25m+5.72=7.97m

    So your options are 17->36 and 18->35

    Level 18 fighter gives another proficiency point pip, but if you're gonna have him use the carsomyr he won't need it, as he is already maxed in two handed iirc.

    Keep in mind that if you add Prof.Points as thief, for weapons he already has Prof.Points in BEFORE re-activating fighter class, those points are gone forever.
    Place only in different weapons.

    The BEST way however, is to NOT level him up from lvl 1 thief, until you have 1.76m xp as thief (level 18 - given you dualed at 17). This way, when you level up you reactivate Fighter class and can distribute your thief prof points as a Fighter, and can go all the way on one weapon.. instead of having to spend 1 wasted pip on several different weapon types you'll never use.
    It's a bit boring yes, to wait with leveling up like that.. but 1.76m xp goes fast in ToB and a singleclass thief far below everyone else in levels regardless of lvling up as you go, is extremely underwhelming.

    If you dual him, you'll be carrying him for the entire time until he gets his class back either way.
    But as i said, 1.76m xp goes very fast.. especially if you have watchers keep to do still.


    TraumaDramagorgonzola
  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    Well, I completed the first two floors of WK.

    I think what I'm trying to figure out is, which is more fun? Just having a straight fighter, or training a former Bhaalspawn to be a trapsetter who must hide in the back, throwing his wittle boomerang knife? Or will that just be annoying? And does he not get to play with the trap HLAs til too late in the game to really have fun with them?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,059
    funny thing, the ONLY time i ever use backstab is in the first dungeon in bg2 where there is all those wand traps and the 2 dugers dudes, i will stealth pass them, grab the wand keys, and then just for the lerz i will backstab the one guy

    other than that i NEVER back stab any enemy afterwards, so if you are worried about losing backstab potential i wouldn't worry about it

    StummvonBordwehr
  • TraumaDramaTraumaDrama Member Posts: 43
    Yeah. I think I just have thief FOMO to be honest. When I first played this game 15 or so years ago, I was a Fighter/Thief multi, and even though I had no idea what I was doing I had fun with it. Think I'm just gonna beat it without Valygar, with Voldemort as a regular fighter, and then replay and evil run with Hexxat.

    sarevok57
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 401
    Dualing him to a thief will make him a stronger fighter, not weaker.. because of the UAI he will be able to use all kinds of protective shit not ment for fighters and he won't lose his hp or anything like that.

    He won't have fighter HLA, like whirlwind and hardiness, but you have two other paladins for that.. and the whirlwinds last so short i barely ever use them anyway.

    Oswald81
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 699
    edited February 9
    @Khyron Dualing him to thief will make him weaker. He will have less hitpoints. If he dualclasses at level 17, it will take him 1,760,000 XP before he gains a single new one, and his maximum HP at XP cap is 51 points lower. More importantly though, without Hardiness, he will take 67% more damage, which means that his pure fighter staying power will be more than twice as strong than his FT staying power. If you think that a bracelet with +15 HP can undo that difference, you are sorely mistaken.
    And for people who don't dualwield, Greater Whirlwind is an amazing increase in fighting power. It may just last a single round, but oh boy, you can accomplish a lot in that round.

    So both Sarevok's offense and his defense will be crippled. That is not to say that Fighter->Thief dualclasses are bad. But you have to play them as FTs, not fighters.

    Skatan
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 401
    edited February 9
    50hp isn't much to cry about, and his tanking ability isn't even needed as he has 2 paladins.

    I don't see how he would contribute more to the party with a third set of warrior hla, instead of 2 warrior hla tables and 1 thief hla..

    Especially as he has no other char with thief hla.. spike traps, timestop traps, uai.. there's a lot of juicy stuff there, and it would give the char a whole other dimension of powers instead of being just the third warrior.

    Edit:
    Also, there's a massive value to having a frontliner with Find Trap ability turned on at all times.
    We who have played the game a billion times know where all the traps are and can just bring out Imoen for when we know there's one comming.

    Having the char upfront and searching would be a huge utility/quality of life.

    So yeah.. F->T seems an obvious choice.

    SkatanTraumaDrama
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