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The most powerful SoA fighter?

gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
as i had some time to spare, but i was not in the mood to continue my actual run i did some testing.
it was done in the pocket plane with a sarevok and a anomen at high level. sarevok was equipping the vorpal halberd and anomen foa+doe, he was also buffed and protected from death. each one was grand master in his weapon. i sent them one against the other. most of the times buffed anomen was literally destroying mr tob, a couple of times even surviving a deathbringer assault. i did not test anomen against korgan but i suspect that the outcome would be similar.
the hp boost that he gets from his buff and the damage reduction given by doe and armor of faith make anomen able to take some serious hits before he dies and the helm of the rock, that i did not use in the test, should make him even more resilient. offensively the buffs make him hit like a rock, solid damage, and the slowing effect of foa is devasting. he was protected against death as the purpose of the test was to judge who of the 2 has the better mix of offensive power and defensive capability and the enemies in soa don't use vorpal weapons.

i found that result pretty impressive as he is also a high level divine spellcaster able to call a deva, cast firestorm, implosion and other powerful spells.
the need to buff him before each hard battle can be annoying for someone, even if he has plenty of slots to do it without compelling you to early resting. the fact that he can bring his str to 25 without using any gear but his symbol, and he can do it also before he gets it, must also be factored in as other party members can use that gear. at the end the whole party power is more important of the power of a single toon.
usually when someone ask about a strong fighter to add to his party sarewok, korgan and keldorn, with his dispel magic and super sword, are named, very seldom i read "pick anomen".

as i used him only in my early ignorant playing, before knowing how to buff him properly i don't have a direct experience of his strength as mlee fighter and tank in real game environment.
can someone who use him mainly as a frontliner share his experience and opinion about him?



SkatanBronin
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Comments

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    edited March 8
    Frankly, I feel like the duel between Sarevok and Anomen should have gone the other way. If Sarevok gets the Roranoch's Horn, that puts his resistance to Anomen's blunt damage to 90% (while Anomen is stuck at 45%). Also, I am pretty sure that GWW overrides Slow in terms of how many attacks you get.

    So I just made a little experiment and neither the elemental damage nor the Slow effect worked at all against any of my four frontliners, but did work against my second-liner.
    "Unaffected by effects of Flail of Ages +5"
    Is this one of my many mods at work? But what exactly is stopping it? I finally managed to get it to do its job against my F/M after he had completely undressed. A healer had to constantly cast Heals on him while I was waiting for the Slow.
    I was proven wrong. Greater Whirlwind + Slow makes for 5 attacks per round.

    Anomen dualwielding FoA +4 and DoE with Improved Haste and Grandmastery should get 7 attacks. He will deal 5*4 points of elemental damage that is relatively difficult to resist (because you would need 100% resistance in order to protect against it). Against Sarevok's enormous resistance the blunt damage should come out as 7*3. So I figure Anomen does 41 points of damage per round. Sarevok might wear equipment to negate up to two of the elemental damage types, which would put Anomen's damage to 31.
    Sarevok with the Ravager +6 and the Belt of Fire Giant Strength does about 25 points of damage with an attack, which Anomen's resistance turns into 14. 14 * 5 = 70. I will assume that Anomen wears some sort of protection against poison.
    Anomen would need a lot of HP to make up for this difference.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 8
    in my test i did not give to sarewok that resistance to blunt cause the purpose was not the duel in itself but to see their potential against the game enemies, and in the game the blunt damage is the less resisted.

    about the slow effect of foa afaik not only overrides gww, but stack with itself and affects also spellcasting passing trough stoneskins. i had seen dragons moving in slow motion and taking ages to cast their spells. and this is a foa perk, not an anomen one, the f->c is only the perfect user of the flail, party efficiency wise, as the other fighters can use the powerful slashing weapons while he is restricted to blunt.

    my sarewok was taking elemental damage so probably one of your mods block it. about the apr of anomen you are correct, he has3.5/7 apr, but as foa is one of the most damaging weapons and he has the long lasting kay from righteous magic i probably would equip on him the gauntlets that give en other 1/2, the fact that he has no gww is an other reason to do it. i did not that in my test.

    also in my test i did not had anomen+deva+greater elemental vs sarewok and i did not have anomen casting implosion on sarewok, cause the purpose was to test his mlee potential when buffed, not his whole potential. but the whole potential should be considered when evaluating who to take.

    about anomen's hp at cap level and without gear that improves it he has 155hp, after the boost of his spells he gets 223hp. about the damage that he does should be 31dmg/hit + elemental damage with foa+5, no randomness due to righteous magic, so with ih and gauntlets of extraordinary specialization 264dmg/round if every hit connects + 8x elemental damage so other 80 dmg if no elemental dmg is resisted. this puts his potential close to 350 dmg round, the half if not hasted. and the half is about the hp of sarewok, this explain the results of the duel under my conditions.

    i am not saying that anomen is superior to sarewok, whose deathbringer and vorpal attack chance can be really powerful, or korgan, that benefits of the dwarf st and of the rage. i am saying that he is a viable alternative to them for who seek a party member for tob being a strong fighter, a good tank and a divine spellcaster only a little less powerful than viconia.

    EDIT: my calculation about the dmg/round anomen deals is wrong as 2 apr are done with the defender that deals less damage and lacks of elemental damage, so it is little more than 20 dmg/round less than stated above.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    Sarevok with the Ravager +6 and the Belt of Fire Giant Strength does about 25 points of damage with an attack
    so about 250 under gww
    we have to factor in the avg 11.5 poison dmg, that can be saved.
    assuming that no poison dmg is saved, thing very unlikely against tob bosses we have a grand total of 365dmg round

    about anomen:
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the damage that he does should be 31dmg/hit + elemental damage with foa+5, no randomness due to righteous magic, so with ih and gauntlets of extraordinary specialization 264dmg/round if every hit connects + 8x elemental damage so other 80 dmg if no elemental dmg is resisted. this puts his potential close to 350 dmg round

    it is surprising how close is their dmg potential at high level.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    You cannot cast Improved Haste on somebody using the FoA+5. Anomen gets two and a half attacks with it per round. 3 attacks with the Legacy of the Masters gauntlets. Your calculation is wrong (or your game is modded).
    That is precisely why I used the FoA+4 in my calculation. It is also why an F->C (like Anomen) is not the ideal person to use it.

    And even if you do not want to see Sarevok's anti-Anomen capability, adapting to your enemy is what you should be doing before every serious encounter. If you know the enemy deals blunt damage, then the helm is good. Otherwise, it is useless. The point of having all these different spells and items is that they can make various encounters (but not all) easier. The Shield of Balduran does not help you much when fighting illithids. Note that I did not even mention its anti-FoA equivalent, the Ring of Freedom.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    if ee did not change it you can not haste a toon welding foa+5, but you can haste a toon and then equip the weapon.
    in all my ee runs, that are not many as i mostly play the original with tactics mod, i never tried if it still works, and used every time the +4 version. but right now i eekeepered a flail +5 and it still works.
    some players regards it as an exploit and don't use it, myself am not using it in the last runs i have, but it can be done. anomen with the gauntlets, buffed, hasted and then equipping the flail gets 8 apr, only 2 less than from the gww he can not get, with the benefit that ih lasts a long time (if not dispelled) while you have to use a gww each round. as anomen has the capability to buff himself for several battles and hopefully the party mages have the spells to haste him for those battles anomen can have 8 apr for all the battles a party typically fights in a day.
    true that also sarewok can be hasted, but as he is not DW he will get less apr, still being a very powerful fighter.
    also my choice to have anomen using the gauntlets and sarewok not using them is totally arbitrary, but it has its sense. cause the anomen's dmg/attack is the higher so party efficiency wise is sound to give him the 1/2 apr boost and cause the other party fighters will get the str enhancing items while anomen does not need them, my aim is to have the maximum potential from the sum of my fighters, not to have a single one super powerful if it means to underpower the others.

    and you are getting me wrong, i perfectly see the sarewok anti anomen capability and in an hypothetical in game fight between the 2 i would do exactly the same as you did, if you have an enemy dealing crushing damage and have an item that grants 90% resistance against that type of damage why not to use it...
    i did not do it cause the purpose of my test was different, it was to mimic the capability of the 2 to deal damage and tank against the real in game enemies. and in game the crushing damage is the less resisted, while the piercing one of the halberd and the slashing one of the 2 hand sword sarewok can use are resisted by more foe.
    in a real fight between anomen and sarewok, both with time to buff and prepare, i would probably have the deva and a couple of greater elementals distracting sarewok while anomen keeps casting implosion on him damaging him and blocking him for the round, probably anomen would win quite easily if sarewok does not manage to pass trough the meat shield and disrupt him in spite of sarewok anti anomen capability. in a real fight starting not buffed gww and sarewok wins.
    but i repeat, this was not the purpose of my test.

  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 141
    Korgan is the strongest soa fighter

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    he is surely really strong, the rage help him survive as well as the shorty saving throws, he has huge hp and can DW with gm and fighter's thac0.
    using axes he can also use the vorpal one in tob.

    imho he, sarewok and anomen are of similar strength, they have different characteristics and each one of them excel in something. can you explain why in your opinion he is stronger than the other 2?

    but if we consider the whole usefulness of the 3 the whole thing changes, even if anomen would be less strong, and we can have different opinions about, the fact that he has a mlee power similar to the one of the others and at the same time is a cleric make him possibly the best choice. keldorn can dispel spellcasters protection, he can disrupt them with the storm of vengeance, the mlee and tanking power of him must also consider his summons, from the skeletal warrior that he gets at a slot level less than a mage up to the deva and if he is lucky the elemental prince. then implosion that freezes an enemy for a full round, firestorm that bypass magical resistance. and a lot of protection and buffing from his spells to the party. with anomen in the party you can avoid to have viconia or aerie freeing the place for an other fighter.

    this is why when i read (quite often) "i reached tob and i am thinking to drop xxx and take sarewok" and the typical answers "why not korgan, is stronger" or "why not keldorn, the dm and the sword that dispell on hit are super useful" i think "why not anomen, he is a jerk, but hits as hard as the others, tanks as well and adds a lot of spellcasting and utility to the party".
    and this is the real reason, beyond the title of the thread, why i started this topic.
    i am interested in knowing the opinion of who actually use him at high level as a frontliner, buffing him properly to do it. we have dozens of witnesses on how the other fighters are great, but seems to me that his fighting potential is greatly overlooked.
    sadly i am getting only witnesses on how the other ones are good... :)

  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 141
    For survivability and tankyness hes the best. For offense it depends entirely on what you are fighting and the answer of “best” will change

    gorgonzola
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 428
    Fighter/caster multiclasses are nearly always better than their singleclass counterparts when properly buffed so it isn't too much of a surprise that Anomen comes out ahead of the game's singleclass warriors under those conditions. The real question is whether you as a player are willing to continually cast the same spells before each fight, which will significantly slow your progress through the game, or whether you'd rather just charge into battle with a guy who will do almost as well with minimal/no buffing. I think that's the main reason why people tend to focus on Sarevok or Korgan rather than Anomen.

    I'd put Keldorn in a different category, though. If you're carrying him in the party then it's likely despite his DPS/tank shortcomings, not because you believe him to be the best DPS/tank in the game.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    @jsaving good point.
    has to be told that anomen needs 1.5 round of buffing before getting in combat, the time to cast holy power and righteous magic, armor of faith and duhm are really fast to cast and it can be done in combat.
    but is true that some players like more point and click toons.
    an other possible reason is that some players don't know how to buff properly a cleric for mlee combat.

    @Aaezil korgan is very tanky, no doubt. by the way also a buffed anomen with his 223 hp at cap level and 45% physical damage resistance is tanky.
    korgan has rage and super saving throws, anomen has shield of the archons to absorb spells.
    but i agree, if we are talking of tanking the best one is the dwarf, only aerie, haer dalis and a charname with some fighter and some mage in can be superior, and only thanks to the arcane magic.

  • piggy1753piggy1753 Member Posts: 9
    A fully buffed FC is surely stronger than a pure fighter. But I guess the real time it takes to fully buff is indeed too long for my taste.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 10
    the real time to buff a fc dual is 12 seconds, if the quick spell slots are used, unless the battle requires something special like chaotic commands or shield of the archons, or the battle is really hard, but i respect your taste. each one of us gives a different value at some seconds of his life and, more important, each one has things that bring him fun or annoy him, the game can be seen as a point and click one, a battle of buffs and debuffs, and some mods require that style, or something in between.
    he can also use some of that time to move and approach the enemy, or throw in some sling shot.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • BroninBronin Member Posts: 16
    edited March 10
    Anomen was frequently tank in my vanilla playthrough before Keldorn got Foebane +5. I found duhm and armor of faith were largely sufficient (rarely used holy power for thaco and I think I never used righteous magic). He had gloves of dexterity when tanking (alternatively you could use potion of agility or mind focus then duhm for good AC).

    Edit- my party was good at single target damage. Keldorn and Jaheira had strength items (Jaheira could use sling with strength based damage). Protagonist fighter often used a good axe or preferably returning throwing axe. Nalia and Imoen sometimes chipped in with melf's minute meteors, occasionally one of these two would be in Tensor's Transformation.

    Post edited by Bronin on
    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 10
    thank you @Bronin, finally a contribution to the thread by an anomen user.
    you never used righteous magic, it has 3 purposes, boosts hp, str and gives maxed dmg roll, the latter is probably the less useful effect as most of the weapons he can use have a low part of the damage affected by the roll, and rely mostly to enchantment level bonus and elemental damage. typically the roll is 1D6 so on average it is only a 2.5 damage boost. to get 25 str without items is what really boost it and also boost the thac0 stacking with the holy power bonus. there is a precise synergy in the 3 spells anomen uses to boost his offensive capability, as well as a precise order in which they have to be cast.
    holy power sets his str to 18.00 overriding every str item he equips, before or after the cast with the only exception afaik of the symbol, and also every spell cast before it. but not overrides the boost from spells cast after. so to get the remaining 7 points high level while casting righteous magic (whose boost is level dependent) and the symbol or before righteous magic and duhm (also level dependent) are needed. then he gets 25 str and that + 7 thac0 and +14 dmg that make him a strong hitter. freeing all the str items to have party members equip them or to build crom faeyr that your charname can use off hand, to have 2 toons at 25 str is really strong and the thac0 boost that the protagonist gets make dual welding effective even if he has only a pip in it or has no proficiency in hammers. returning to anomen for the minor fights his natural str and the boost of duhm are more than enough. duhm is always the last spell to cast as it has the shorter duration and in some long lasting battles you have to cast it again, but as the cast time is really fast you can do it with no problem.
    i strongly suggest you to give a try to this way of buffing him, as well as to keep him in the party until he is high level, cleric offensive buffs improvement are level dependent, you will be surprised about how he gets better, being a true hard hitter while being an even better tank than how you buffed him.

    about the gloves combined with duhm give him a really good dex, but if some reason, like having keldorn also in the party, make wiser to give the gloves to the pally the hp boost of rm and hp combined with the damage reduction he can get from armor of faith and defender of estheaven make the dex from the only duhm enough good in most of the situations, for battles where the best ac is needed a potion can be surely added. to use the slot to equip the gloves that grant 1/2 apr more, when the party gets them, is the other good reason to don't use the gloves of dexterity, the 1/2 attack with foa and 25 str is very valuable and at that point of the game ac is far less important, while still being useful, i certainly don't suggest to unequip armors..., and high hp pool and damage reduction are more effective ways to grant survival.

    Bronin
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    Realistically, Korgan doesn't offer much beyond being very low effort to run, and he can hit 5 apr easily with a speed weapon off-hand, making him really hard hitting. He has insanely good saves, and immunities from Rage are even better/more practical than what a cleric gets.

    If you want a hard hitting cleric for the final battle, I tried a Swash 25 to Cleric. Pure cleric incidentally makes for a great tank until you get your Swashie levels back, and assuming you wisely took UAI, you can use it as a Cleric, so beating decent enemies solo even as a cleric is possible, and you can end up with 2 pips in scimitar and 3 in twf, and use two speed weapons to get your apr up. This is wildly stronger than you could make Anomen, and buffs are optional to be effective.

    I found a cleric actually adds little oomph compared to an arcane user, as many cleric picks are party support or self-buff, though Animate Dead and Aerial Servant are useful in SoA, and many enemies will get beaten by either reliably, and until you get HLAs, you can use Gate I guess if you remember to use Prot from Evil, but I find Aerial Servants more reliable.

    I think Anomen only compares well to Korgan if he has time to buff, and would be steamrolled without 4 or 5 rounds prep imho.

    gorgonzola
  • BroninBronin Member Posts: 16
    @gorgonzola that's right if you use holy power it needs to be before duhm or righteous magic to get strength in the 20s. When i played i thought i should keep level 5 spell slots for other spells like chaotic commands and others (so no righteous magic). I figured the strength you get from duhm to be sufficient. Anomen or another character could get 23 or 24 strength from potions reasonably early in bg2 (though potions of fire giant strength granting 22 str were more commonly dropped or available to buy). Anomen was assisted by toons with ogre strength gloves and hill giant strength belt for much of SOA. So your idea of righteous magic has not been tried by me (though you do argue for it well). Also the bonus merchant selling defender of easthaven didn't appear in my game. Ano used a shield.

    @DreadKhan i would be curious about korgan vs anomen if anomen casts duhm then armor of faith. However, likely Anomen would do better vs the enemies (without holy power) as korgan's AC would usually be better than the AC of enemies you meet.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    @DreadKhan, swash25->cleric has a huge ac and thac0 bonus, misses apr compared to someone that has some warrior in him, but has the wirlwind hla to compensate it.
    i have no doubt that in the last battle can be really strong. personally i never even dualed a charname at 13 as i hate the long downtimes, so is not a thing for me, but is surely a good option for others.
    anyway we were talking of vanilla npcs.

    i don't think that anomen needs 4 or 5 rounds to buff but maybe in the very few super hard battles.
    from when he is able to cast lev 5 spells he gets a big hp boost and 22-25 str depending on the level by casting only 2 spells. then aof and duhm are really fast to cast and, if they are needed, he can cast them during the battle. and if a battle requires cahotic command i would be glad to have a cleric like him to cast it. as i told i actually have no experience of using anomen that way, but i have experience in using aerie as a mlee fighter. he has more apr and more hp, she has arcane spells to protect herself (and her simulacrum fighting on her side), but the way to buff them and use them, divine spells wise, is almost identical. i never had to spend 5 rounds buffing her for the battle, i don't see why someone has to do it with him.
    as a fighter has good thac0 and hits hard and has a good pool of hp for me is set to go, other buffs can be added as needed as the battle evolves, if they are ever needed, in many battles are not.

    an other advantage of anomen is his anti undead effectiveness, he can clear the whole bodhi's lair by himself near the end of soa and be a vampire and lich killer in tob as he is basically like a single class cleric on this aspect.

  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 283
    Korgan and Keldorn for sure.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    edited March 11
    Well, a swashbuckler cleric multi would be interesting, but would be a kinda cheaty move, but wouldn't allow you to spec in scimitars for dwing speed weapons, which gives you 4 apr base, and gauntlets can nab 4.5, which is pretty competitive, though you might need to switch one speed weapon, but you can use oil of speed I suppose.

    If Anomen is given 2 rounds and chooses DUHM and SoF, he's going to be too soft vs Korgan, who can use a speed weapon OH and has access to Hardiness and can easily reach 5 apr, meaning he'll use Critical Strike probably and flatten Anomen in a round or two.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    @DreadKhan Why does Anomen not wear a helm in your scenario?
    Korgan would do a lot more damage with just Crom Faeyr and GWW, or Axe of the Unyielding +5 and hoping for a lucky decapitation (except that OP has ruled those out*).

    Even if Vorpal hits were okay, I still would not count on them. A Greater Whirlwind attack with the Axe of Unyielding has at most a 25% chance of decapitating Anomen. If that is what you are betting on, you have already forfeited any claim to superiority and the fight is thus pointless.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,654
    Never said that he wouldn't. Crit Strike and IH are a very good combo if you're at 5 apr anyways, and items can give some imp haste. 10 Apr is not something Anomen can match, and generally Hardiness is better than AoF. Heck, Korgan could DW FotA and DoE w/gauntlets for what, 4.5 apr? With hardiness he'd take negligible damage and he'd never miss, so yeah, short fight I think. Korgan's biggest disadvantage is that he wants an item to boost str, but he's vslid without, where as Anomen is in trouble w/out buffs.

    Korgan would almost certainly use AotU, again never said he wouldn't. Really, with IH and Crit Strike you're really adding up those decapitate chances, fwiw.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 11
    @DreadKhan
    i repeat that a cleric has always to begin with holy power and then cast righteous magic if he wants to go mlee. why anomen should choose duhm and sof? 6 seconds after the fight has begun he can, in 1/10 of round, cast duhm or or aof, and after other 6 seconds he can cast the other, with little chance of being disrupted as the casting is so fast. after casting the 2 spells you tell he has not optimal thac0, the one of a cleric slightly made better by some str enhancment, not optimal damage as his natural str will be rise, but not to 25, not optimal hp cause the boosted con will make better his natural hp pool.
    with the starting spells i suggest he will have an hp pool similar to the one of korgan, and it will become superior to the one of the dwarf at the beginning of the second round if he chose to cast first duhm while in combat, he will have better thac0 than korgan and deal more damage/hit as he will start with thac0 of a fighter of same level of his cleric one and will be under the effect of the highest str we can achieve in game.
    he will still miss in apr, cause has not lev 13 as fighter and cause he can not equip speed weapons, and probably he has to equip the dex gauntlets for the first round to have good ac, but then he will have the choice of having a super dex or to swap the gauntlets and use the ones that give to him 1/2 apr more.
    korgan can use critical strike or gww, but in my test anomen vs sarewok most of the times the slowing effect of the foa triggers in the first round, and this mean a korgan with only 1/2 of his apr, that can become 1/4 as the slowing effect stacks with itself. i tested with both the toons under ih cause i assume that a wise player cast it on his fighters before hard battles and the test was to find the capability of anomen in a party and against real enemies, not the duel in itself.

    it has also to be told that if we consider the fight as a duel, even if we don't give anomen any time to buff, he will have no problem at all. he simply cast the fast spell that make him invisible and then buffs himself with all the spells he can need, call some summons to help him and then start to bash the dwarf.
    the only fighter type npc that will surely win against anomen, and here really there is no chance, is keldorn as he can dispel anomen's invisibility and will dispel his whole buffs as soon as he hits him one time.

    to judge how a f->c is powerful one has to know how to properly buff him, probably you don't know it as you suggest to start with inferior spells. but i suggest you to give a try to the way of buffing him i suggest.
    and i don't want to be derespectful telling this, almost every player has some sides of the game he has not still fully explored and mastered. surely i am the first to have a lot of them. probably only the player that has soloed each class and combination of classes trough the game can use each class at its best and is really an all round player.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    edited March 11
    I think of the Axe of the Unyielding as more of a defensive weapon than an offensive one. As I just said, there is only a minor chance that it would kill an unprotected Anomen. Between the Helm of Balduran, the Ring of Gaxx, the Cloak of Displacement... there are plenty of items that Anomen could use to improve his saving throws. And the AotU does not deal a lot of damage. 1D8+5 is not impressive for a ToB weapon, and it is tied with axes that you can get at the start of SoA, except that those axes deal elemental damage.
    I should not have worded my previous post in a way that was advocating the use of the axe, even if I pointed out immediately after that I would not trust in its ability to deal vorpal hits.

    gorgonzola
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 520
    edited March 11
    I think the comparision is a bit unfair. A high level cleric really is something else.
    A high level cleric should - on top of all else - have a blade barrier and a globe of blades going into melee.

    But if you have to compare the cleric and the fighter you should have a level playing field. For instance:
    Chapter 2: 500,000 xp and gear appropriate
    Chapter 3: 1,000,000 xp and gear...
    And so forth. On top of that how long a buff period is granted.

    That way the comparision seems more fair imo.

    Great thread btw. Always fun to see how different play their game.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    i agree. also death ward protects a cleric from vorpal effects and every wise cleric will cast it on himself or on his fighters if going against an enemy that can vorpal or in battles like the one against vongoethe where there is a chance to be killed by a spell.
    in a real duel against a fighter that can not dispel invisibility a F->C can also use other spells, defensive harmony to make his summons and the gated deva more resilient, doom to lower enemy's ac and st, harm to have a chance to bring him at 1 hp with one hit, storm of vengeance to deal multiple party friendly elemental damages and implosion, that can make the opponent useless and unable to react to the attacks of the cleric's summons for the number of rounds he can keep casting it.
    really there is no chance a fighter can prevail against a f->c, that can make himself as good as fighting as a pure fighter and at the same time is an high level caster.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    edited March 11
    @gorgonzola What invisibility spell do you mean? Sanctuary? The Sanctuary is canceled when you start summoning stuff, is it not? Also, it has a casting time of 4, so if Anomen were to cast it at the beginning of a duel, Korgan would have ample opportunity to run up to him, interrupt the spell and then pummel Anomen without him ever being able to do anything.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 11
    @StummvonBordwehr
    completely agreed. the full mlee power of a cleric becomes to be evident and relevant as he gains levels as he uses mostly level dependent buffs. at low levels, let's say until the half of soa if not importing from sod, a pure fighter is superior to a f->c mlee wise and the latter has to cover a different role, more a buffer and spellcaster and flank attacker.
    @Humanoid_Taifun sanctuary has a casting time of only 3 if the amulet is used. if the fight start with the fighters not so close anomen has a good chance to cast it.
    and to relocate himself, buff remaining invisible and then call the summons while the fighter is not in his sight range. he can monitor the area with far sight as he is doing it to be certain to not be surprised as he is casting the deva summon.
    also invisibility potions are there and are immediate and can not be disrupted, but a cleric can dispel invisibility while a fighter can not and the cleric's deva completely ignore invisibility and can also dispel it.

    i am well aware of the power of fighters like korgan or sarewok, at least partially aware as i lack of a deep knowledge about how to use potions with them.
    but i suggest to try also the power of anomen, learning how to use him at the best at medium/high level. i am sure that many good players that did never try it will be surprised by the result.

    EDIT: anomen can also use the staff of command to make the opponent friendly without save, thing that makes shorty st useless, then buff, summon, place the opponent in the point he likes, cast aoe like the storm and then start to bash him.
    true that also a fighter can use the staff, but in this case he will only gain a some attacks before the cleric turns again hostile, the use that anomen can do, duel wise, is much superior as buy the time to summon an army, buff himself and his helpers and use friendly aoe spells that will not affect the enemy, so break the domination, until anomen's army start to bash him. even casting implosion will turn the opponent hostile again only at the moment that completely block him making him an easy prey.

    EDIT 2: blade barrier and the globe are save or else so against an high level korgan will probably don't work much of the times, even after the dwarf is doomed, but why not? and in many in game situations are really useful. maybe not against bosses with super st, but in battles against multiple non boss enemies can deal a ton of damage.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
    StummvonBordwehr
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    If you are going to permit Potions of Invisibility, Anomen would be at a significant disadvantage. Fighters can drink them too.
    Unlike fighters, Anomen relies on spells for his combat effectiveness. Yes, Anomen can use spells to detect the Invisbible (I am not sure if the Cloak of Nondetection works with potions. I think it does, but let us just say it is not available). But does he really want to? Unless he has already summoned a Deva, he does not even know if the enemy is still in the area or if he is just wasting a spell. Invisibility Purge and True Seeing also have very long casting times. While he is casting it, he can be sure that one of 2 things are going to happen: 1) he gets attacked and his spell is interrupted. Then the opponent may just drink another potion of invisibility.
    2) his opponent runs off and waits for True Seeing's duration to run out.
    If Anomen has a Deva out and the opponent is invisible, the opponent may just run away with Boots of Speed (and maybe Whirlwind). Then begins a game of cat and mouse until the Deva's time runs out.
    If at any point Anomen casts buffs to improve his battle readiness, he can rest assured that the enemy will not show themself until the end of the buffs' duration.

    The only sensible way for Anomen to dispel invisibility is with the Gem of Seeing. This would again trigger a game of cat and mouse though. True Seeing works once per round, and you can drink one potion per round.
    It might be an interesting strategy to cast a real True Seeing now with a half-round offset to the Gem of Seeing. But the opponent would probably just run off while Anomen is busy casting the spell and come back when both True Seeings are history.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    afaik cloak of non detection works only with the staff of the magi and the thief hide in shadows, i can be wrong but i am quite sure to be right on it.
    i fail to see how an invisible fighter can gww without dispelling his own invisibility and the deva see trough invisibility so in a cat and mouse tactic the cleric is at some advantage as his deva will start to run towards the invisible enemy as soon as he come too close revealing to the player that uses the cleric the position of the fighter.
    surely a fighter invisible can run away and hope to not be revealed by the deva before the deva find him, but this is a clue of how is weaker, not stronger, is something we can use only in this hypothetical duel, doing so in the real game will leave the party without its hard hitter and tank.
    and in the real game the tactic of having a toon trigger the enemy's buffs and then wait for them expiring can be done and is often a very effective tactic. but in the real game will be nor anomen nor a fighter to do it, but a mage with staff and cloak or a thief with uai, staff and cloak. a thief with good hide in shadows can also do it with only the cloak if in a dungeon and if is able to use the low light points of the area. my solo thieves and sometimes my party thieves have depleted and wasted full mage spellbooks just becoming visible at the edge of their sight area and then doing a step backward and hiding in shadows, the spells on target that the mage is casting are wasted as suddenly there is no more target.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    edited March 11
    (Greater) Whirlwind does not undo invisibility.
    The cleric may gain some insight into the direction of the fighter. But the Deva is too slow to catch up and thus unable to give the cleric a solid position. Not like that would matter though. So long as you cannot target the fighter I am not sure what you would do with that information. Holy Smite? By the time you have finished casting that, the opponent has a good chance of already having moved on.

    Also, I do not see why party tactics should be relevant in a duel. That is just a silly cheap shot. In a party vs party situation Anomen would be targeted with spells (or arrows) to dispel his buffs or there would be other tactics to contain him.
    And no, running away does not make a character weak when that character ends up winning.

    I did not bring up Potions of Invisibility (or other items granting the same effect) for a reason. You have described that reason quite well in your post. The only reason I even brought up the tactic is because it is the natural consequence of permitting potions to be used in the duel.

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