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The most powerful SoA fighter?



  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,055
    edited March 2019
    @gorgonzola Also, even if the party argument did have merit, it would still fall flat when Anomen, your party tank, chooses to open up the battle by casting Sanctuary (or drinking a potion of Invisibility). The entire line of reasoning is biased to make Anomen look better.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited March 2019
    gww does not break invisibility, it is broken by the very first attack a fighter does after using it. as gww is very short lasting and is cast immediately i don't see a difference if not the fact that given the high apr the fighter can connect few attacks before the target goes invisible again, that is exactly what i told above.
    but obviously a fighter's gww is completely useless as long as he can not see the enemy.

    party tactics are relevant cause i clearly stated in the op post that the purpose of the test i did was to find the fighting potential of anomen and comparing it with the one of sarewok to see if is a viable alternative to the fighters usually suggested in the threads IN A PARTY if used as mlee fighter.
    this is the real topic of this thread, the whole duel thing is only a sub product of the discussion that can help us to find out more information, as we are contributing with more tactics, spells, ways of buff. but is not the goal of this thread, so talking of the tactics proposed for the duel also in a party optic is exactly the topic here.
    this is also the reason why i had anomen improved hasted in my test, in a real game situation and being him one of the frontliners probably a mage will haste him as he lacks of gww, and probably would also be wise to have him protected by shield of the archons if there is a chance that the enemy try to dispell him. and a potion or spell does not hide a toon from friendly, having an invisible toon in the party you see it also if only an other toon is selected, in multiplayer all the players continue to see him.

    and the duel is not even technically possible due to the game limitations. this game wants to have a friendly party player controlled and enemies controlled by ai. storm of vengeance and other party friendly spells would not work against the player controlled enemy, party boosting spells like defensive harmony would also boost the enemy and not only the summons if he is in the aoe, staff of command will be useless and so on.

    EDIT: if we use mouse and cat tactics and allow potions as the effect lasts 24 hours and a fighter can not dispel it we probably will have a long lasting battle :smiley:
    if i would use anomen i would probably go away for 6-18 hours then come back and gate in the deva to try to find the enemy, hoping that the player controlling it is at work/school, eating, sleeping or doing something other... but as i told such duel is not even technically possible. but as potions are in game to talk of them and of using them is perfectly in topic, even if duel wise is technically impossble.
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,055
    edited March 2019
    I only brought up Whirlwind (not greater) to run away faster, in case the extra speed was needed. I did not say anything about attacking (in that context). Read more closely.
    As for the topic of party tactics, I can only ask you to read the post right above yours if you still insist on them.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited March 2019
    about the use of the wirlwind you are right, i apologize.

    about the party tactics surely it does not make sense to have your fighter invisible if not for particular situations like to pass trough helpers and go directly to a boss, but korgan can do it as well as anomen.

    about the party tactics also
    In a party vs party situation Anomen would be targeted with spells (or arrows) to dispel his buffs or there would be other tactics to contain him.
    is something true, even if shield of reflection make him completely immune to arrows od dispel, as well as makes any other buffed fighters.
    in an hypothetical and impossible party vs party situation also i would try to dispel anomen.
    but in the real party vs ai controlled enemies i used mlee aerie many times and there are few situations where she has to use her arcane spells to avoid to be dispelled, usually good party positioning and timing are enough to avoid it. both in the vanilla runs and the ones with tactics mod. probably against scs mages the thing is different, i don't play that mod. so is possible that he is not a good alternative to fighters that rely less than him on buffs if playing scs.

    my entire line of reasoning is biased to make him appear better than he is, is true, but for a reason.
    i really think that he is really better than what many players think, even aerie is freaking good if used mlee and properly buffed, is perfectly capable to destroy solo many tob bosses using only physical damage as way to harm them, i did it many many times. he overcomes her main limitation, apr.
    and i always try to never overbuff, i really think that a high level cleric is combat ready after only 2 buffing rounds in most of the situations, even with tactics mod.
    you propose anti anomen tactics and i answer with counter tactics, while if i propose some tactics your only answer is to run away invisible. this proves the versatility of anomen, EDIT not that korgan is weak END OF EDIT, how his mlee capability when buffed, his casting capability and the help of the party, he really needs someone casting improved haste to shine, can make him adapt to different situations and can be used if something goes wrong in the battle to turn again the tide.
    our whole reasoning is something silly as the duel can not even be implemented, and still useful as can help us to understand better what anomen and what the other fighters can do and use it in game.

    if you want to hear me tell that korgan is much stronger than him i will gladly do it :)
    what i really think is that korgan, anomen and sarewok are super strong mlee fighters, each one of them works better with certain player's styles and in some situations. and is perfectly possible to have more than one of them in the party.

    i am quite happy of this thread as a lot of information has being given and different theories have been confronted, now is upon each one to use the information as he pleases in his gaming.

    i probably in the future will test a whole party with anomen as a frontliner.
    now i am testing sarewok and i am far from being impressed by him. he is strong, no doubt, but my usual setting, all party members at least part arcane casters, 2-4 party members, utter versatility and overleveled party, as is a small one, seems to me to be more powerful. i often feel that i have to babysit sarewok, pure fighters seems to me so squishy, relying only on hp, ac and good hp pool to survive, so subjected to save or else effects. my usual goal is to win the battles with my party taking almost no damage, having now sarewok my goal is to win battles while i keep him alive...
    but this is my playstyle and my relatively small experience on how to use plain fighters can have a part in my opinions.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,055
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    surely it does not make sense to have your fighter invisible
    You were the one who brought up invisibility as a tactic. I only responded in kind.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    you propose anti anomen tactics and i answer with counter tactics, while if i propose some tactics your only answer is to run away invisible. this proves the versatility of anomen, EDIT not that korgan is weak
    I proposed Anti-Anomen tactics (like 90% resistance to crushing damage) and you said those do not count.
    While if you suggest some tactics (invisibility) and I also adopt them, you tell me I am cheating because the role of a tank is undermined when invisible.
    Your representation is dishonest.

    Sarevok is not a tank. You can get away with calling Korgan a tank for two reasons. First, he has Rage and good saving throws. And second, you get him in SoA.
    But in ToB you need more than just HP in order to go toe-to-toe against Fire Giants or other heavy hitters. In that regard, I would not call Anomen a tank either. My favorite approach is to kill enemies before they can do any real damage. Fortunately there is almost nothing that cannot be killed in a single round.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited March 2019
    the topic is best fighter, not best tank. surely as tank korgan is the better among the 3.
    and if you read my previous posts i admitted it, telling that only haer dalis and aerie can be better tanks than him among all the npcs. even a sorcerer or imoen can be a better tank as long as her spells last, but i was talking of someone that can resist to damage while being effective in mlee.

    i told that the 90% crushing resistance does not count related to the purpose of this topic as the real enemies usually don't have that kind of resistance, blunt is the less resisted damage in the game.
    i also told that to go invisible and hide away is not a tactic that works in the game and with a party, it can be relevant to a solo run, but in a party one you need to have your fighters visible and on the front line.
    i am not trying to be dishonest, i try to stick to the topic, if something that can be used in the duel also works and is useful in the real game i consider it, if not i discard it.
    is perfectly true that anomen will have enormous problems against someone resisting to 90% of his damage, being him korgan or an other fighter. so korgan equips that helm and wins.
    is it useful to us to know if anomen is up to the power of korgan as party frontliner? surely not cause is not something the enemies do and cause every fighter can equip that helm to tank an enemy dealing big crushing damage.

    i have already recognized that korgan and sarewok are really powerful, each one in his own, i add now that also keldorn is so. i am just suggesting that anomen in my opinion can be at the same level of power as fighter, in game and for the purposes a fighter must fulfill. is this being dishonest?

    from the op post
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    i found that result pretty impressive as he is also a high level divine spellcaster able to call a deva, cast firestorm, implosion and other powerful spells.
    at the end the whole party power is more important of the power of a single toon.
    usually when someone ask about a strong fighter to add to his party sarewok, korgan and keldorn, with his dispel magic and super sword, are named, very seldom i read "pick anomen".
    i was clear from the beginning about the goal and topic of this whole thread, this is why i don't feel to be dishonest when i say "yep, this can be done but is not useful to our topic, i discard it".
    i tried to be honest but focused mainly on the topic, not on the duel thing,
    the same is true about other thread instances, ie i told that basing on my own experience only 2 rounds of buffing are needed before going to battle, not 5, and that some other spells can be added as the battle progresses, cause that is my experience, i had that approach work many times. but i never told that buffing is not needed, if a player does not like to buff anomen frontliner is not for him and that is fine.

  • BroninBronin Member Posts: 29
    I remember in a muck around playthrough a mace and shield wielding berserked minsc getting beaten by a duhm vampire charmed anomen. From memory, I don't think ano had armor of faith or other buffs. It was during chapter 2. I previously suggested duhm and aof as they are spell easy to cast even in ambush situation.

    What I haven't done is determining expected dps and expected dps taken using maths and the numbers. The primary focus should be how the fighter and his party goes vs the enemies in the game.
  • BroninBronin Member Posts: 29
    then again, i may well have used some math in my decision to take anomen in my original playthrough. After reading the manual and thinking about my party I had not originally planned on taking Anomen. Then I found him in the Copper Coronet and kept him until the end..
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,055
    @gorgonzola You read very selectively. The accusation of dishonesty was brought up in a specific context - that you completely ignored. You repeat the same old defense that is utterly beside the point. There is either a linguistic barrier that makes you unable to understand what I am saying, or there is some heavy rationalization going on.
    Either way, it would be a disservice to this thread if I began restating my points. Whether you accept them or not does not add anything to the discussion. To proceed past this point would be purely for self-gratification. So I will drop the argument. Have a good day.
  • BroninBronin Member Posts: 29
    edited March 2019
    Defender of Easthaven with FOA and buffed ano (with aura of flaming death) would avoid about one third of melissan attack rolls. That is awesome if his buffs are not dispelled as I believe Ano would likely easily stay alive with healing potions and his 45% damage reduction with aof and doe. However, the weakness is the enchantment level on doe and Ano being dispelled. Keldorn with Foebane +5, hardiness and greater whirlwind was preferred by me against low MR enemies and is less dependent on not being dispelled. Keldorn can use the Answerer to lower MR (from memory) or party members can use lower resistance (possibly in a spell trigger of some sort).

    I had the bonus merchant diedre that sells robe of vecna but not Joluv. I freed slaves of Copper Coronet and had access to (Bernard I think his name was) and his cool cheap stock. No Joluv. Did I miss something or was that a glitch?
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,055
    Joluv is available from the beginning. In my last game the fighting in the Copper Coronet drove Joluv all the way into the lust chambers. It took me several minutes to find him.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,295
    SCS has a component that delays the arrival of the two bonus merchants. The first arrives after completing 4 of the 8 stronghold related quests and the 2nd arrives after Underdark. That could be an explanation.
  • psychomaxpsychomax Member Posts: 3
    I like Valygar. Whilst he may not seem as powerful as Minsc up front:
    -He has studded leather armor that increases most of his resistances.
    -He has a sword that makes the target bleed (that KILLS trolls. very nifty).
    -Can backstab like a thief (up to x4 in ToB)
    -Has more cleric spells than Minsc.
    -Planar Sphere mission gives gloves of strength, so valygar gets that extra boost from them.
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