Party issues regarding NOT taking Yoshimo to Spellhold (SPOILERS)
rollingmurray
Member Posts: 19
First of all, I apologize if this information is already available elsewhere in the forums. I tried to search for it (even through Google) and just couldn't find a satisfying answer. 
So here's the thing. If you take good old Yoshi in your party to Spellhold, his betrayal will automatically free a spot in your party for Imoen, right? What about if you don't take him at all and your party already has six members?
I'm about to start Bodhi's gauntlet, which is the moment when Imoen becomes available to join the party. I kicked Jan out as he was just filling in for little sis, but there's no option to send him back to Athkatla or the boat, just to wait there. I was able to read in an old forum (pre-EE) that anyone you leave in the gauntlet is lost forever. Is that correct? Although Imoen is set to become my party's thief (and main mage, with Aerie as a backup), I really don't want to lose Jan either because I need him for my shoplifting runs (his pickpocket skill is so high right now he barely needs a PoMT to steal anything from merchants).
Oh, and there's a dialogue option just before you recruit Imoen where you tell her there's no room for her in the party and ask if she can get out on her own. Will she be available after I leave Spellhold, and therefore be possible to keep both Imoen and Jan?
So here's the thing. If you take good old Yoshi in your party to Spellhold, his betrayal will automatically free a spot in your party for Imoen, right? What about if you don't take him at all and your party already has six members?
I'm about to start Bodhi's gauntlet, which is the moment when Imoen becomes available to join the party. I kicked Jan out as he was just filling in for little sis, but there's no option to send him back to Athkatla or the boat, just to wait there. I was able to read in an old forum (pre-EE) that anyone you leave in the gauntlet is lost forever. Is that correct? Although Imoen is set to become my party's thief (and main mage, with Aerie as a backup), I really don't want to lose Jan either because I need him for my shoplifting runs (his pickpocket skill is so high right now he barely needs a PoMT to steal anything from merchants).
Oh, and there's a dialogue option just before you recruit Imoen where you tell her there's no room for her in the party and ask if she can get out on her own. Will she be available after I leave Spellhold, and therefore be possible to keep both Imoen and Jan?
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leave Imoen (or jan) there and use the console to bring her/him next to you in Athkatla (if you need I can check here for Imoens character file) , or you could summon her/him at the begining of ToB through the fate spirit , so they come out as a fresh 2.5 million xp character.
Everyone else would be lost to you, at least until the beginning of ToB.
It is unfortunate that BG 2 is not more flexible with party size here; NWN 2 had Shandra as a required party member, but increased your maximum party size at that point, so you could still take your other favorite characters.
I'm really avoiding to use the console altogether, so I'll go for the "send Imoen away" option first. I intended to add her to the party as soon as possible so she could start filling in the XP gap for being away so long - I did a LOT of stuff before coming to rescue her - but since I got her with around 1,200,000 XP, I guess it won't make much of a difference if she's not around for the rest of the Spellhold sequence. Besides, I've got like a gazillion scrolls back at the Copper Coronet to scribe and re-scribe for XP - and am yet to start Watcher's Keep - so I guess things will work out fine for Imoen in the end.
Yeah, I know that. Being aware from the very beginning that Yoshimo would betray me/die was the reason I dumped him so early in the game. Funny thing is I found out about that when I looked online for the best way to develop him, and if I should go for dual class, etc. etc. Today I wish I hadn't. Everyone says Yoshimo's betrayal was a big twist back then and I didn't get to experience it properly. It's like watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time but already knowing who the big helmet dude really is. I guess that's one of the downsides of living in the information age...
Slightly off topic, but what is Imoen's response to this? Is she agreeable, or does she beg you to let her in?
yes....? she seems a little upset that you would abandon her, but she agrees to find a way out, so no muss or fuss after that, and she will be waiting at the copper cohornet when you get back in chapter 6
Oh, crap. You mean I won't be able to get Imoen back before tackling the Underdark in chapter 5? She'll be so far behind in terms of XP by then. I love Aerie, but being a multi-class mage doesn't make her an ideal choice to fill the main mage spot - not to mention Jan and his lousy Illusionist specialization...
You could speed through the Underdark by following only the critical parts, and e.g. leave the Beholder and Illithid areas for later. That might alleviate it somewhat, but yes, it is quite some time until you can pick up Imoen again.
Surely you can't be serious! (low hanging fruit there
Imoen won't be able to progress as a thief, but she's already got 100% (or close to it) in the two "essential" thieving skills - find/disarm traps and lockpicking - so she's all you'll ever need to finish the game.
Above all else, I really think a single class thief (whatever the kit) is simply a waste of a party slot. They're only really useful for the thieving skills (which you'll only require occasionally). With only 1APR, one point of proficiency in any weapon, inability to use heavy armor/shields or cast spells, they're not much more than a walking toolkit.
PS: You're right about Nalia, though. Nalia as a thief sucks.
That seems like a good idea. Are you sure I'll be able to bring Imoen back to clean up those areas later?
i want to be completely not spoiled when i will purchase the game and play it the first time.
about yoshimo i often send him to the copper coronet at the beginning and recruit him right before going to brinnlaw as having him there is a good xp boost (i don't want to spoil you more even if most of the damage is already done...)
about his geas i think that is really badly implemented, he has to try to bring charname to irenicus. if not being in the party would be a condition to fail the conditions of the geas yoshi should die the first time you drop him of if you never recruit him. if not he should not die in the copper coronet but should continue to try to bring charname to irenicus, the fact that irenicus has already stolen the divine soul from charname does not change the geas obligation, only yoshimo not doing what he must do by his own will should.
i should try to leave yoshimo in an area where i will never return and tell him to wait me there to save him not from the geas, but from the decision of the developers that he can not be used after spellhood so he has to die anyway.
also when the geas was imposed upon yoshi irenicus had not clue that his dungeon was going to be attacked by the shadow thiefs and that he and imoen would have been arrested by the cowed wizards.
he is a powerful mage but he is not omniscient. is clear that his whole plan was based in the town, he had a large dungeon fitted for the purpose of stealing the soul and also bodhi was based there, her part was to capture the people whose souls are needed to power up the process.
so the fact that yoshi HAS to die when sees again charname after spellhood makes even less sense.
but i know that the original developers made some changes regarding imoen at the last moment, the plot was originally different. so probably the bad implemented geas is part of that change.
Everyone should play with Jan at least once, if only because he has the best banters in the game. The one where he went on and on with one of his BS stories about an orc who would eventually be used as a toilet brush just to call Anomen a braggart really made my day.
I hope this does not count as a spoiler to you, but SoD's main musical theme is really awesome.
Do you realize you're basically saying it's ok to spoil both games because, you know, one's 20 years old and the other is an interquel?
It's just not true. I'm playing BG2 for the first time (even though I played BG1 when it came out in 98 - long story) and I've been able to evade most spoilers until now (except for Yoshimo's).
Regarding SoD, I'm still to find any reference in BG2 to what happened at the end of the former (apart from the "charname left Baldur's Gate under mysterious circumstances" line in the beginning). If that plot thread isn't resumed sometime during BG2 (I'm still playing the game so I can't answer that yet), it would be a huge spoiler even for those who've played BG2 before.
the thing about the main musical theme of sod obviously is not a spoiler.
as i believe that i will not spoil you telling that afaik there is no reference to sod in bg2, and the reason is simple, sod happens before bg2, but was created 15 years later.
@megamike15 as some people, maybe few, are new players and don't like to be spoiled is really easy add to the title of a thread "SPOILER", and inside a thread that is not flagged as spoiler in the title
thank you for not spoiling.
It's only recently dawned on me that the most obvious answer to the whole "where does Imoen fit?" dilemma has been staring us all in the face the whole time: just take one less party member to Spellhold.
After all, you KNOW that you're going there to rescue Imoen, and by now you've learned that (for whatever reason) you're utterly incapable of keeping a party of more than six together at one time, so it makes perfect sense that you would leave room for her to join.
if i don't use metagame knowledge using your logic there are 2 possible scenarios:
1. i plan to have a party including yoshimo, so after spellhood and getting back in the party imoen i will end with a 5 people team as i have dropped an other toon.
2. i plan to replace yoshimo with imoen, i leave him in town and i will loose some bonus xp as he will never betray me and ask to bring his hearth to a cleric.
the game plot works only with the assumption that a not spoiled player has yoshimo in the party, the option to have him not and have him die in the cc is only set to avoid you from using him after spellhood, even if imho there are no rp reasons for it, he instead would have to continue to pursue the geas obligation and bring you to irenicus.
so a not spoiled player not willing to use yoshimo in the party, let's say cause there is a thief charname or the player likes jan's banters, will end with a 5 people party using your logic.
for players not willing to have imoen in the party other issues happen, to have to leave her in the maze and with her soul stolen, that has rp problems for all not evil charnames as at that point you also know that she is your sister or to have to leave a toon you want to keep, without any chance to get him back if you, for rp reasons, change your mind and decide to help her and drop an other character to free place for her.
consider that you have no clue at all that she will be able to find her way to town alone and the other npc's don't.
this works only if you have yoshimo in the party, without meta knowledge and having hexxat or jan or a thief charname using your logic you have to leave your sister, and your friend from since you were baby, in utter peril or have to loose forever an other toon that is functional to your party.
EDIT: grammar
EDIT2: consider also the conditions in which you found imoen, extremely confused and barely able to recognize you. and even if your own soul has been stolen at that point you have no clue on the long term effect of it at it has just happened, but judging on the effects on imoen you can assume that the effects will be worst as time passes by. maybe you had jaheera cursed and even if a curse is a less serious problem than the loosing of the soul the more time pass the more week jaheera becomes. considering the conditions you find imoen you can certainly assume that something similar will happen to her and to yourself. without meta knowledge and while rp this is very relevant on judging about her chances to make it back in town or the chances of a much helathier and strong toon, lets say korgan.
for rp reasons and without knowledge a not spoiled player does not have there are many reasons for a not evil charname to drop korgan and loose him forever.
a plot that push you towards such decision, if rp and not spoiled, for every 6 people party that does not include yoshi is a bad implemented plot.
That would make sense, if not for the fact that right up until that point you had always been able to send removed party members to their default locations (Minsc and Anomen to the CC, Jan to his home, Viconia to the Graveyard District, etc), so, as @ThacoBell rightly points out, it's understandable that a non-spoiled player would bring a full party to Spellhold for the best chance of success, while believing at the same time that he could just swap someone for Imoen (if he so wishes) and send the removed party member home.
Heck, if the game allows you to do that with Imoen herself, why not other party members as well? Are "escaping gauntlets on your own" and "world-class swimming" Bhaalspawn abilities I'm not aware of?
I'm just so pissed Imoen is missing out on all that XP from the Underdark (and the City-of-Caverns before it)... but I could just not leave any other character behind.
if you know what happens, as every player not at the first run does, you bring a five people party if your plan is to continue the game with her, or better you take yoshimo to get a free 200k xp. and imoen does not loose any xp. if you don't plan to use imoen after you have rescued her you just leave her in the maze as you know that she will find her way, and you can even clear the bodhi's dungeon recruiting imoen only for a very short time just to have her soul restored.
so you have not to loose xp for imoen or loose forever an other toon, as knowing how the plot works let you exploit your knowledge. and this is pure cheese, even if a plot level and not at a level of exploiting some spell, item or game mechanics like setting traps on a known spawn point.
if you are not using meta knowledge, like a not spoiled first time player or a player that for play style reasons wants to strictly avoid to take advantage of knowledge charname is not supposed to have, all the problems rise as long as you don't have yoshimo in the party for the reasons i outlined in my previous posts.
"escaping gauntlets on your own" and "world-class swimming" Bhaalspawn abilities are surely there, for imoen only, a not spoiled player has no way to know it and given the bad state you find her there are so many reasons to drop and loose forever an other party member. is true that the option to send to the cc is not there when you drop him, but there is also no clue that you will never be able to reach the island/asylum/sayugin area after you leave them. and this is only true also for the planar prison, that is on an other plane of existence, every other place you find before or after spellhood can be reached again, underdark included, so there is no real reason why you must know that you can not go back to the maze and recover your left npc.
The dialog options may not reflect this, but if you did not metagame your party, you may really have no choice but to leave somebody behind.
What I didn't know was that you can't send anyone home when you rescue Imoen (besides her) and that the character you leave behind (if you wish to hang out with little sis) is lost until ToB. Not having the dialogue option to send people home and wondering if I could fetch them later was exactly the reason I started this thread.
So, between a) start using Imoen right way (as I intended to originally) and losing another character indefinitely or b) sending Imoen home (since she's the only one who can) and keeping all the characters, I went for the second option.
but as i told i also think that the whole thing is a bad implementation from the original developers, so i find completely legit to use that cheese, that exploiting of a knowledge charname don't have to avoid the consequences of the bad implementation.
legittimate, i am the first to use it, done to avoid the effects of a bad implementation of the plot and not to take an advantage that the party should not have, but still cheese as it involves an exploit.
this would partially fix the things for first time players that don't use yoshimo, as using him the whole plot is smooth and nice.
can you @JuliusBorisov or an other moderator please suggest it to the game developers, if you agree with me?