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Party issues regarding NOT taking Yoshimo to Spellhold (SPOILERS)

First of all, I apologize if this information is already available elsewhere in the forums. I tried to search for it (even through Google) and just couldn't find a satisfying answer. :/

So here's the thing. If you take good old Yoshi in your party to Spellhold, his betrayal will automatically free a spot in your party for Imoen, right? What about if you don't take him at all and your party already has six members?

I'm about to start Bodhi's gauntlet, which is the moment when Imoen becomes available to join the party. I kicked Jan out as he was just filling in for little sis, but there's no option to send him back to Athkatla or the boat, just to wait there. I was able to read in an old forum (pre-EE) that anyone you leave in the gauntlet is lost forever. Is that correct? Although Imoen is set to become my party's thief (and main mage, with Aerie as a backup), I really don't want to lose Jan either because I need him for my shoplifting runs (his pickpocket skill is so high right now he barely needs a PoMT to steal anything from merchants).

Oh, and there's a dialogue option just before you recruit Imoen where you tell her there's no room for her in the party and ask if she can get out on her own. Will she be available after I leave Spellhold, and therefore be possible to keep both Imoen and Jan?

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Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,891
    I'm not sure if they're gone forever , but if that is the case you have two options :

    leave Imoen (or jan) there and use the console to bring her/him next to you in Athkatla (if you need I can check here for Imoens character file) , or you could summon her/him at the begining of ToB through the fate spirit , so they come out as a fresh 2.5 million xp character.

    rollingmurray
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 756
    Imoen is the only character that makes it back to Athkatla (Copper Coronet) on her own. This seems to be the intended path if you come will a full party and no Yoshimo.

    Everyone else would be lost to you, at least until the beginning of ToB.

    It is unfortunate that BG 2 is not more flexible with party size here; NWN 2 had Shandra as a required party member, but increased your maximum party size at that point, so you could still take your other favorite characters.

    ThacoBellrollingmurraysarevok57
  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    Thanks for the reply, guys. :)

    I'm really avoiding to use the console altogether, so I'll go for the "send Imoen away" option first. I intended to add her to the party as soon as possible so she could start filling in the XP gap for being away so long - I did a LOT of stuff before coming to rescue her - but since I got her with around 1,200,000 XP, I guess it won't make much of a difference if she's not around for the rest of the Spellhold sequence. Besides, I've got like a gazillion scrolls back at the Copper Coronet to scribe and re-scribe for XP - and am yet to start Watcher's Keep - so I guess things will work out fine for Imoen in the end.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,336
    if you don't take yoshimo he dies in the cc due to his geas.

    sarevok57
  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    megamike15 wrote: »
    if you don't take yoshimo he dies in the cc due to his geas.

    Yeah, I know that. Being aware from the very beginning that Yoshimo would betray me/die was the reason I dumped him so early in the game. Funny thing is I found out about that when I looked online for the best way to develop him, and if I should go for dual class, etc. etc. Today I wish I hadn't. Everyone says Yoshimo's betrayal was a big twist back then and I didn't get to experience it properly. It's like watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time but already knowing who the big helmet dude really is. I guess that's one of the downsides of living in the information age...

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,336
    i always bring yoshimo with me anyways as i enjoy his character [ with his mods mind you] even tho i know he will betray me.

    ThacoBellGirewan
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,455

    Oh, and there's a dialogue option just before you recruit Imoen where you tell her there's no room for her in the party and ask if she can get out on her own.

    Slightly off topic, but what is Imoen's response to this? Is she agreeable, or does she beg you to let her in?

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,126

    Oh, and there's a dialogue option just before you recruit Imoen where you tell her there's no room for her in the party and ask if she can get out on her own.

    Slightly off topic, but what is Imoen's response to this? Is she agreeable, or does she beg you to let her in?

    yes....? she seems a little upset that you would abandon her, but she agrees to find a way out, so no muss or fuss after that, and she will be waiting at the copper cohornet when you get back in chapter 6

  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    sarevok57 wrote: »


    yes....? she seems a little upset that you would abandon her, but she agrees to find a way out, so no muss or fuss after that, and she will be waiting at the copper cohornet when you get back in chapter 6

    Oh, crap. You mean I won't be able to get Imoen back before tackling the Underdark in chapter 5? She'll be so far behind in terms of XP by then. I love Aerie, but being a multi-class mage doesn't make her an ideal choice to fill the main mage spot - not to mention Jan and his lousy Illusionist specialization...

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,336
    and then you work in the fact in once yoshimo is gone you no longer have a good thief. nether imoen or nalia are thieves really most of their levels are in mage.

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 756
    sarevok57 wrote: »


    yes....? she seems a little upset that you would abandon her, but she agrees to find a way out, so no muss or fuss after that, and she will be waiting at the copper cohornet when you get back in chapter 6

    Oh, crap. You mean I won't be able to get Imoen back before tackling the Underdark in chapter 5? She'll be so far behind in terms of XP by then. I love Aerie, but being a multi-class mage doesn't make her an ideal choice to fill the main mage spot - not to mention Jan and his lousy Illusionist specialization...

    You could speed through the Underdark by following only the critical parts, and e.g. leave the Beholder and Illithid areas for later. That might alleviate it somewhat, but yes, it is quite some time until you can pick up Imoen again.

    gorgonzolarollingmurray
  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    megamike15 wrote: »
    and then you work in the fact in once yoshimo is gone you no longer have a good thief. nether imoen or nalia are thieves really most of their levels are in mage.

    Surely you can't be serious! (low hanging fruit there ;)) Yoshimo doesn't hold a candle to Jan as a thief. Sure, he's single class so he'll progress faster, but as a Bounty Hunter he only gets a small fraction of thieving skill points to spend when he levels up, while Jan's starting thieving abilities are already pretty high AND he has his exclusive thieving gear which makes them even better. Yoshimo is better at setting traps, but I don't really care about that. :)

    Imoen won't be able to progress as a thief, but she's already got 100% (or close to it) in the two "essential" thieving skills - find/disarm traps and lockpicking - so she's all you'll ever need to finish the game.

    Above all else, I really think a single class thief (whatever the kit) is simply a waste of a party slot. They're only really useful for the thieving skills (which you'll only require occasionally). With only 1APR, one point of proficiency in any weapon, inability to use heavy armor/shields or cast spells, they're not much more than a walking toolkit.

    PS: You're right about Nalia, though. Nalia as a thief sucks. ;)


    "Ammar wrote: »

    You could speed through the Underdark by following only the critical parts, and e.g. leave the Beholder and Illithid areas for later. That might alleviate it somewhat, but yes, it is quite some time until you can pick up Imoen again.

    That seems like a good idea. Are you sure I'll be able to bring Imoen back to clean up those areas later?

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,336
    i'll be honest i have not used jan yet. there are alot of bg 2 characters i have still not used but i'll get around to it eventually.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    Being aware from the very beginning that Yoshimo would betray me/die was the reason I dumped him so early in the game. Funny thing is I found out about that when I looked online for the best way to develop him, and if I should go for dual class, etc. etc. Today I wish I hadn't. Everyone says Yoshimo's betrayal was a big twist back then and I didn't get to experience it properly. It's like watching Empire Strikes Back for the first time but already knowing who the big helmet dude really is. I guess that's one of the downsides of living in the information age...
    this is the very reason why i never read the sod section of the forums, for me is simply not existing.
    i want to be completely not spoiled when i will purchase the game and play it the first time.

    about yoshimo i often send him to the copper coronet at the beginning and recruit him right before going to brinnlaw as having him there is a good xp boost (i don't want to spoil you more even if most of the damage is already done...)

    about his geas i think that is really badly implemented, he has to try to bring charname to irenicus. if not being in the party would be a condition to fail the conditions of the geas yoshi should die the first time you drop him of if you never recruit him. if not he should not die in the copper coronet but should continue to try to bring charname to irenicus, the fact that irenicus has already stolen the divine soul from charname does not change the geas obligation, only yoshimo not doing what he must do by his own will should.
    i should try to leave yoshimo in an area where i will never return and tell him to wait me there to save him not from the geas, but from the decision of the developers that he can not be used after spellhood so he has to die anyway.

    also when the geas was imposed upon yoshi irenicus had not clue that his dungeon was going to be attacked by the shadow thiefs and that he and imoen would have been arrested by the cowed wizards.
    he is a powerful mage but he is not omniscient. is clear that his whole plan was based in the town, he had a large dungeon fitted for the purpose of stealing the soul and also bodhi was based there, her part was to capture the people whose souls are needed to power up the process.
    so the fact that yoshi HAS to die when sees again charname after spellhood makes even less sense.
    but i know that the original developers made some changes regarding imoen at the last moment, the plot was originally different. so probably the bad implemented geas is part of that change.

  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    megamike15 wrote: »
    i'll be honest i have not used jan yet. there are alot of bg 2 characters i have still not used but i'll get around to it eventually.

    Everyone should play with Jan at least once, if only because he has the best banters in the game. The one where he went on and on with one of his BS stories about an orc who would eventually be used as a toilet brush just to call Anomen a braggart really made my day. :D
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    this is the very reason why i never read the sod section of the forums, for me is simply not existing.
    i want to be completely not spoiled when i will purchase the game and play it the first time.


    I hope this does not count as a spoiler to you, but SoD's main musical theme is really awesome. :) Probably my favorite in the saga.

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,336
    the difference between sod spoilers and yoshimo spoilers is one is only 3 years old but you kinda know whats gonna happen given it's a interquel. while the other is a 20 year old spoiler that is well known at this point.

    ThacoBell
  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    megamike15 wrote: »
    the difference between sod spoilers and yoshimo spoilers is one is only 3 years old but you kinda know whats gonna happen given it's a interquel. while the other is a 20 year old spoiler that is well known at this point.

    Do you realize you're basically saying it's ok to spoil both games because, you know, one's 20 years old and the other is an interquel? :p

    It's just not true. I'm playing BG2 for the first time (even though I played BG1 when it came out in 98 - long story) and I've been able to evade most spoilers until now (except for Yoshimo's).

    Regarding SoD, I'm still to find any reference in BG2 to what happened at the end of the former (apart from the "charname left Baldur's Gate under mysterious circumstances" line in the beginning). If that plot thread isn't resumed sometime during BG2 (I'm still playing the game so I can't answer that yet), it would be a huge spoiler even for those who've played BG2 before.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    @rollingmurray
    the thing about the main musical theme of sod obviously is not a spoiler.
    as i believe that i will not spoil you telling that afaik there is no reference to sod in bg2, and the reason is simple, sod happens before bg2, but was created 15 years later.

    @megamike15 as some people, maybe few, are new players and don't like to be spoiled is really easy add to the title of a thread "SPOILER", and inside a thread that is not flagged as spoiler in the title
    hide the spoiler content :D

  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the thing about the main musical theme of sod obviously is not a spoiler.
    as i believe that i will not spoil you telling that afaik there is no reference to sod in bg2, and the reason is simple, sod happens before bg2, but was created 15 years later.

    I get what you're trying to say, but the thing about prequels (as something made after the original but happening before) is that they should be coherent with future events already established.

    Using yet another Star Wars analogy, in the prequels Padme dies while giving birth to Leia and Luke, when in the original trilogy (created before) Leia says she has memories of her real mother when she was a child, making the whole thing incoherent.

    I wouldn't go as far as to call the events in SoD incoherent with BG2, and since from your previous post I understand you're yet to play SoD I won't spoil it for you, but there's one really traumatic and rather open-ended event at the end that made someone like me who hadn't played BG2 at that point believe that plot thread would be continued in the sequel (rather that just being a way to justify charname leaving the city of Baldur's Gate in BG2's prologue).

    Anyway, this thread has gone waaay off-topic. ;)

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    i understand what you mean, but i will see it by myself when my time for sod will come,
    thank you for not spoiling.

    rollingmurray
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,455

    It's only recently dawned on me that the most obvious answer to the whole "where does Imoen fit?" dilemma has been staring us all in the face the whole time: just take one less party member to Spellhold.

    After all, you KNOW that you're going there to rescue Imoen, and by now you've learned that (for whatever reason) you're utterly incapable of keeping a party of more than six together at one time, so it makes perfect sense that you would leave room for her to join.

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    what you tell is truth, but is not the complete truth.
    if i don't use metagame knowledge using your logic there are 2 possible scenarios:
    1. i plan to have a party including yoshimo, so after spellhood and getting back in the party imoen i will end with a 5 people team as i have dropped an other toon.
    2. i plan to replace yoshimo with imoen, i leave him in town and i will loose some bonus xp as he will never betray me and ask to bring his hearth to a cleric.

    the game plot works only with the assumption that a not spoiled player has yoshimo in the party, the option to have him not and have him die in the cc is only set to avoid you from using him after spellhood, even if imho there are no rp reasons for it, he instead would have to continue to pursue the geas obligation and bring you to irenicus.
    so a not spoiled player not willing to use yoshimo in the party, let's say cause there is a thief charname or the player likes jan's banters, will end with a 5 people party using your logic.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,140
    edited March 16
    @gorgonzola Your logic also assumes that Imoen will be joining again when you find her, I always rp that charname just doesn't know what state Imoen is going to be in when rescued. After all, charname has had to carry people in his pack before. So I go in with a full party for the best chance of success, prepared for the worst case scenario. Its only a coincidence that Yoshimo leaves just in time for Imoen to join.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    edited March 16
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @gorgonzola Your logic also assumes that Imoen will be joining again when you fight her
    my logic was in response of the logic used by @SharGuidesMyHand
    After all, you KNOW that you're going there to rescue Imoen, and by now you've learned that (for whatever reason) you're utterly incapable of keeping a party of more than six together at one time, so it makes perfect sense that you would leave room for her to join.
    in a scenario where the player is totally not spoiled or he does not want to use metagame knowledge.
    for players not willing to have imoen in the party other issues happen, to have to leave her in the maze and with her soul stolen, that has rp problems for all not evil charnames as at that point you also know that she is your sister or to have to leave a toon you want to keep, without any chance to get him back if you, for rp reasons, change your mind and decide to help her and drop an other character to free place for her.
    consider that you have no clue at all that she will be able to find her way to town alone and the other npc's don't.
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    So I go in with a full party for the best chance of success, prepared for the worst case scenario. Its only a coincidence that Yoshimo leaves just in time for Imoen to join.
    this works only if you have yoshimo in the party, without meta knowledge and having hexxat or jan or a thief charname using your logic you have to leave your sister, and your friend from since you were baby, in utter peril or have to loose forever an other toon that is functional to your party.

    EDIT: grammar
    EDIT2: consider also the conditions in which you found imoen, extremely confused and barely able to recognize you. and even if your own soul has been stolen at that point you have no clue on the long term effect of it at it has just happened, but judging on the effects on imoen you can assume that the effects will be worst as time passes by. maybe you had jaheera cursed and even if a curse is a less serious problem than the loosing of the soul the more time pass the more week jaheera becomes. considering the conditions you find imoen you can certainly assume that something similar will happen to her and to yourself. without meta knowledge and while rp this is very relevant on judging about her chances to make it back in town or the chances of a much helathier and strong toon, lets say korgan.
    for rp reasons and without knowledge a not spoiled player does not have there are many reasons for a not evil charname to drop korgan and loose him forever.

    a plot that push you towards such decision, if rp and not spoiled, for every 6 people party that does not include yoshi is a bad implemented plot.


    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19

    After all, you KNOW that you're going there to rescue Imoen, and by now you've learned that (for whatever reason) you're utterly incapable of keeping a party of more than six together at one time, so it makes perfect sense that you would leave room for her to join.

    That would make sense, if not for the fact that right up until that point you had always been able to send removed party members to their default locations (Minsc and Anomen to the CC, Jan to his home, Viconia to the Graveyard District, etc), so, as @ThacoBell rightly points out, it's understandable that a non-spoiled player would bring a full party to Spellhold for the best chance of success, while believing at the same time that he could just swap someone for Imoen (if he so wishes) and send the removed party member home.

    Heck, if the game allows you to do that with Imoen herself, why not other party members as well? Are "escaping gauntlets on your own" and "world-class swimming" Bhaalspawn abilities I'm not aware of?

    I'm just so pissed Imoen is missing out on all that XP from the Underdark (and the City-of-Caverns before it)... but I could just not leave any other character behind.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    @rollingmurray
    if you know what happens, as every player not at the first run does, you bring a five people party if your plan is to continue the game with her, or better you take yoshimo to get a free 200k xp. and imoen does not loose any xp. if you don't plan to use imoen after you have rescued her you just leave her in the maze as you know that she will find her way, and you can even clear the bodhi's dungeon recruiting imoen only for a very short time just to have her soul restored.
    so you have not to loose xp for imoen or loose forever an other toon, as knowing how the plot works let you exploit your knowledge. and this is pure cheese, even if a plot level and not at a level of exploiting some spell, item or game mechanics like setting traps on a known spawn point.

    if you are not using meta knowledge, like a not spoiled first time player or a player that for play style reasons wants to strictly avoid to take advantage of knowledge charname is not supposed to have, all the problems rise as long as you don't have yoshimo in the party for the reasons i outlined in my previous posts.
    "escaping gauntlets on your own" and "world-class swimming" Bhaalspawn abilities are surely there, for imoen only, a not spoiled player has no way to know it and given the bad state you find her there are so many reasons to drop and loose forever an other party member. is true that the option to send to the cc is not there when you drop him, but there is also no clue that you will never be able to reach the island/asylum/sayugin area after you leave them. and this is only true also for the planar prison, that is on an other plane of existence, every other place you find before or after spellhood can be reached again, underdark included, so there is no real reason why you must know that you can not go back to the maze and recover your left npc.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 773
    Did you just call it cheese when the player is forced to deal with the game limitation of 6 party members?
    The dialog options may not reflect this, but if you did not metagame your party, you may really have no choice but to leave somebody behind.

  • rollingmurrayrollingmurray Member Posts: 19
    @gorgonzola that's precisely what I said. I'm currently in my first playthrough and the only thing I metagamed (due to knowing by accident about Yoshimo's betrayal) was to stop using him early in the game and leaving the ill-fated fellow behind when I left for Spellhold, while knowing that he'll die anyway when I come back to Athkatla.
    What I didn't know was that you can't send anyone home when you rescue Imoen (besides her) and that the character you leave behind (if you wish to hang out with little sis) is lost until ToB. Not having the dialogue option to send people home and wondering if I could fetch them later was exactly the reason I started this thread.

    So, between a) start using Imoen right way (as I intended to originally) and losing another character indefinitely or b) sending Imoen home (since she's the only one who can) and keeping all the characters, I went for the second option.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    @Humanoid_Taifun i call cheese every exploit in the game. so i call cheese to act using a knowledge that charname is not supposed to have to avoid to have to drop a toon in spellhood and loose it forever. or to send back imoen to town alone knowing that she will do it while an other toon will not. those are exploits of the meta knowledge so in my book are surely cheese, as well as is pre buffing for a battle without scouting and spotting the enemy not spotted or using traps on a spawn point when there is no in game clue of the spawning of the enemy, things that also use the meta game knowledge.

    but as i told i also think that the whole thing is a bad implementation from the original developers, so i find completely legit to use that cheese, that exploiting of a knowledge charname don't have to avoid the consequences of the bad implementation.
    legittimate, i am the first to use it, done to avoid the effects of a bad implementation of the plot and not to take an advantage that the party should not have, but still cheese as it involves an exploit.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 1,929
    by the way i know that the ee developers are not allowed to change the original plot in any way, but probably, even if i don't know exactly the conditions in the licence contract, to add the choice to send back npcs to their usual places also in the maze under spellhood probably would not break the contract conditions. and if a soul drained imoen make it why a full health npc should not?
    this would partially fix the things for first time players that don't use yoshimo, as using him the whole plot is smooth and nice.
    can you @JuliusBorisov or an other moderator please suggest it to the game developers, if you agree with me?

    rollingmurray
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