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Of BG and analysis paralyses...

2

Comments

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    @Skitia , the classes in MM7 aren't quite as single-classy as they first appear. The druid class actually plays the same as a BG cleric-mage, the paladin class plays like a BG cleric-fighter, and the ranger class plays like a BG fighter-thief. For me, the trouble with the MM7 "multi-classes" is that they are restricted from the top tiers of both their skillsets, so no grandmaster disarm traps for the ranger, and no grandmaster Protection from Magic for the druid or paladin (that's a *big* disadvantage). Also, no grandmaster air or water magic for the druid, which means no Lloyd's Beacon, and no grandmaster invisibility to make the Light quest in Celeste doable. And no grandmaster armsmaster for paladins. Paladins can't even access expert tier mind-body-spirit magic until after their first promotion quest, which is killing a dragon - which likely isn't going to happen until mid-game at the earliest.

    Because those grandmaster tier skills and spells are so important to having a smooth play experience, I always wind up playing a straight knight-thief-cleric-mage party in MM7. Like you, I tend to carry that preference for straight single classes over to Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, so I also don't get into a lot of multi-classing and especially not dual classing.

  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 208
    edited March 27
    The dragon isn't too bad (As off topic as this is!), though I was the type of person crazy enough to attack and kill the dragon in Emerald island using wands/spells/arrows after a few failures. The dragons in BG are much harder, horrifying to see your party buffeted so far away.

    BelgarathMTH
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 6,841
    A good combat for restartitist is to play a dual class character.

    As soon as you get bored playing the one class, dual over to another, making you play essentially a completely new character from that point of the game on.

    Then you have a new goal with the character as you play, which is to unlock the first class, which should keep you focused as you can’t see the potential of class combination until it is unlocked.

    You should be able to get through 2/3rds of the game if you play like this, then hopefully by then the story has gripped you enough to finish it.

    ~

    Another suggestion is to just follow the main story and keep the exploration to a minimum until you are invested completely in a character.

    If you are running around in the wilderness and come across a cool item that your character can’t use, you may feel like that the item is a wasted opportunity so you’ll restart and create a character with that item in mind.

    ElysianEchoesJuliusBorisov
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    @deltago , that's a pretty good case for dual classing. It would almost be like playing three different characters.

    Can one hope to defeat Seravok without the levels granted from all the side xp?

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 6,841
    So when it comes to main story and side quests with XP I tend to include side quests that are in the areas you visit.

    So Jolia’s ring and Fetish Ogre quest when you get FAI imo are part of the “main quest”

    Same with the Bassiluis, melecamp and Purdue’s sword quest when you hit beregost.

    Minsc (or Edwin) and the gnoll fortress when you hit nashkel (even Brag but I personally skip it).

    Basically get invested in the story of the game instead of your character and see how far that takes you, instead of investing in a character and seeing if that character is “good enough”

    ElysianEchoesJuliusBorisov
  • TheLungoTheLungo Member Posts: 21
    I use to suffer from the same issues you mentioned (getting bored fast resulting in constantly starting new games)

    The actions i took have been more or less mentioned in this thread but here is a summary:

    1. Do not play one dimensional kits as your main characters. By this, i mean kits that do not change much as the game progresses. An example of this would be the Archer kit for example. It was one of the first kits i ever played and i loved it from start to finish. You hit like a truck, and you are god in BG1. However you are basically shooting arrows from candlekeep to ToB which isn't much fun (and meleeing every once in a while)

    2. Increase the difficulty by using mods such as SCS or setting rules such as no reload. The old saying "The risk is worth the reward" applies to games as well. Plus if you install mods such as SCS for example, it will make you use all the magnificient tools this game has to offer (for example potions, scrolls,situational spells, etc which in an unmodded game there is no need to use at all).

    3. Use gameplay mods such as aTweaks. I realized i suffer from the Weapon anxiety syndrome which consists on finding weapons and not having the NPC's to use them. This will often result in me restarting to have the appropiate NPC's to use those weapons. There is a specially important part of aTweaks that you can use which changes the group of proficiencies to make them broader (I am currently using IWD rules which puts all swords but bastard and two handed in 1 group and both bow types in 1 group as well).

    4. Use classes that change their playstyle over time or at least cover the required utility requisites. For example i used the aTweaks option that multi class can grandmastery and instead of using an archer, i use a Fighter/Thief multi in bows which is basically an archer that can cover your find traps/open locks necesities. This also opens up more choices for the recruitable npc's.

    5. Use NPC/Quest mods such as NPC Project. These mods will not only make all npc's have more depth (resulting in them being more appealing) but will make the experience feel refreshed.

    6a. Do not think powergaming is all. This game is very balanced. You can finish it with every class combination unless you are intentionally gimping yourself.

    6b. Do not play chars that have very high downtime for the sake of powergaming. Fighter13/X dual class is awesome in TOB but terrible during most of SOA. Monks are very good in late game but very boring and one dimensional in BG1/SOD (and weak. However there are some fun monk specific items in SoD and SoA that you might want to try once).

    Hope this helped.

    JuliusBorisovGusindaAerakar
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    Thanks, @TheLungo . Good tips, especially one, four, and the sixes. I only have tablet right now, though, so the mods stuff is kinda out of my reach.

    I've whittled down my choices to a human berserker that could dual into thief or mage if it gets boring, an avenger, and a stalker. Maybe I can actually play soon lol. Is a level 9/x berserker/something a lot of down time?

  • TheLungoTheLungo Member Posts: 21
    edited April 1
    In the particular case of berserkers, i like to dual them at 7 because what they gain at level 9 isnt that big. Kensai's however get the +1 dmg +1hit boost at 9 which makes it understandable. Regardless of this, the only difference is that at 7, you will get back your starting class during bg1, while at 9, you will get it at the end SoD/beggining of BG2.

    Avengers are super fun as well since they are like a mage/druid multi. Plus do not understimate the power of the Chaos spell. It is arguably the best crowd control spell in the game. and the spider form/web combo is very good.

    Stalkers are fun because:
    A. in an unmodded game, they have loads of proficiency points to spare so you can have several specializations.
    B. You do not have to make the decision of putting points into Hide in shadows/Move silently because they come with the kit (unlike thieves where you actually have choices) therefor making backstabbing more appealing.

    Also, if you have never done it before, try the Blade kit. It is my favourite one. And always pick up Viconia!

    Post edited by TheLungo on
    ElysianEchoes
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    @TheLungo , how am I supposed to choose, now that you've made them all sound fun? xD

    Maybe I'll just use all three like someone suggested earlier, and still have room for 3 NPC companions...

  • TheLungoTheLungo Member Posts: 21
    It just a matter of taste. I personally play with 2 self created npc's.

    If you are going for Berserker or Stalker, i recommend you do not try to roll godly stats. That way when you actually get improvements such as the tome of str or any str enhancing items, you really notice the upgrade (having 18/00 from the start makes all str gains marginal in my opinion).

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    edited April 1
    @TheLungo If you start with a strength score less than 18, most of your strength improvements will not be noticed at all, because you will not be using your strength score.
    The second level spell "Strength" lasts for long enough that unless you have multiple major battles per day (but not in a row) and several warriors to support, it will make your mediocre strength score meaningless.
    At the end of the saga it is even more extreme. You have access to 2 items granting strength 22 and potentially one item granting strength 25.
    An evil character can potentially raise their strength score to 23 (24 in the case of a half-orc). Even a good character may reach 21. These natural scores are high enough that you can choose to go "natural", which frees up one slot for a different item (and one strength item for one of your companions).

    But if you start at strength 15, there is no way you will not want a Belt of Strength at the end of the game, which makes the Manual of Gainful Exercise and the Deck of Many Things and the Machine of Lum completely meaningless. With such a character I give any permanent strength bonuses then to Minsc or somebody else with a strength score of 18.

    TheLungo
  • TheLungoTheLungo Member Posts: 21
    edited April 1
    @TheLungo If you start with a strength score less than 18, most of your strength improvements will not be noticed at all, because you will not be using your strength score.
    The second level spell "Strength" lasts for long enough that unless you have multiple major battles per day (but not in a row) and several warriors to support, it will make your mediocre strength score meaningless.
    At the end of the saga it is even more extreme. You have access to 2 items granting strength 22 and potentially one item granting strength 25.
    An evil character can potentially raise their strength score to 23 (24 in the case of a half-orc). Even a good character may reach 21. These natural scores are high enough that you can choose to go "natural", which frees up one slot for a different item (and one strength item for one of your companions).

    But if you start at strength 15, there is no way you will not want a Belt of Strength at the end of the game, which makes the Manual of Gainful Exercise and the Deck of Many Things and the Machine of Lum completely meaningless. With such a character I give any permanent strength bonuses then to Minsc or somebody else with a strength score of 18.

    Hi Humanoid, i think i was not clear enough. I mean to go with a 18/<50 or something like that so that the jump of increasing 1 strenght is noticeable. Of course i wouldn't recommend going below 18 with any type of fighter class, just not the absolute max :) . Thanks for the explanation tho.

    Also one more thing, i have as an unavoidable rule not to use pickpocketing in SoA. There are just too many good items to buy in BG2 at the start, some even best in slot, which makes venturing into dungeons/quests feel unrewarding.

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    Hi guys. Thanks again for all the input.

    I finally was able to stick with a character long enough to get back to the bandit camp, and I've successfully staved off restarting. The character is a human shadow dancer, interestingly enough. I found it enjoyable to have it scout ahead, allowing other characters to act outside visual range of enemies, and occasionally blowing up groups of baddies with a necklace of missiles before fading away.

    But now I'm faced with a new decision, and hope for some more opinions to help me decide.

    Stay shadow dancer, or dual to mage? It's almost level 7 now.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 604
    If you're enjoying the shadowdancer, why dual and then lose those abilities for a big chunk of the game? Besides, the shadowdancer's abilities are designed to give him the "feel" of being part-mage (hide = invisibility, shadowstep = time stop, shadow maze = maze, shadow twin = simulacrum) so you don't need to dual-class to experience some of the joys of mage-hood.

    ElysianEchoes
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    jsaving wrote: »
    If you're enjoying the shadowdancer, why dual and then lose those abilities for a big chunk of the game? Besides, the shadowdancer's abilities are designed to give him the "feel" of being part-mage (hide = invisibility, shadowstep = time stop, shadow maze = maze, shadow twin = simulacrum) so you don't need to dual-class to experience some of the joys of mage-hood.

    You make a good point. The thought was that by SoD I could throw bombs from the shadows without having to depend on charge items, but if I lose my stealth, I may not make it to SoD. I do have the problem of running out of mages to take along though. Edwin died a nondescript death in the wilderness shortly before he would have left due to reputation. I sent Dyna away with Minsc, since I wanted to take along different NPCs than in the past. Xan also died a nondescript death in the wilderness, since he had but 17 hp and kept dying all the time. Why a dread wolf would target a flimsy elf that did barely more than scratch it with a throwing dagger over the paladin with a long sword dissecting it piece by piece, I will never understand.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 522
    There's also Quayle (who a lot of people find annoying, but I strangely find him oddly endearing, like that yappy nerdy kid brother who's always trying to hang out with you and your friends by pretending to be smarter/tougher/cooler than he really is), who also brings some clerical magic to the group. Despite his exterior, he does actually have a good heart.

    You didn't mention Xzar, but I imagine he too died an early, gruesome death. In my case, Xzar suffered a fit of madness in which he gave me all of his possessions, including his clothes, before running off screaming into the woods where he was tragically mauled to death by wolves. Montaron assured me that this was by far not the weirdest thing Xzar has ever done.

    Finally, if you're playing the EE, there's also Neera. I like her and her Manic Pixie Dream Girl personality, but I honestly can't stand Wild Mages. Maybe it's just my luck but I ALWAYS seem to get negative results from Wild Surges.

    Going back to your original question too, I think that playing a spellcaster or a rogue is the key to getting lasting enjoyment out of CRPGs. Someone mentioned earlier that playing a straight damage Warrior-type is fun, but you'll essentially be swinging swords or shooting arrows from Candlekeep aaaaaallll the way to the Outer Planes, so it can get a bit repetitive after a while. Spellcasters on the other hand get a diverse range of ways to deal with opponents, from straight up damage to turning enemies into friends with Charm/Dominate spells to summoning monsters to do your dirty work for you, while Rogue-types are probably the most intensive to play on a micro-level; my brother once tried to clear the entire bandit camp by himself by stealth-backstabbing everybody in there and then running away with the aid of Boots of Speed. (A lot easier to do now with the Shadowdancer kit.)

    ElysianEchoes
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    @Zaxares , having heard they might have dubious intentions from a hermit, and being paranoid from the previous night's events, my character took a pass on Zxar and Monty, and sent them on their way. And I'm not sure if Neera is worth the microtransaction to unlock her on my tablet. Perhaps Quayle will be right up my alley.

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    Guys! I did it! I actually finished BG with my shadow dancer. Dropped off my party, stealthed through the end game areas and soloed final battle at level 8. It took two decades... But I finally finished.

    Thanks for the support, guys. Now a new decision: go on to SoD or play BG again at higher difficulty using what I've learned.

    Man, shadow dancer with cloak of nondetection and a few potions is kinda op xD

    Ludwig_IIGusindaZaxaresStummvonBordwehr
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 522
    Glad to hear it, Elysian! :D Either approach sounds pretty good to me, but if you're having lots of fun as a Shadowdancer, then why not keep going in Siege of Dragonspear with it?

    ElysianEchoes
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    @Zaxares , I did start SoD with it. I was dismayed to see my potion pouch and scroll case, and all my goodies, taken away :( My collection of protection scrolls and potions (especially the Molotov cocktails) were integral to my character's evolving concept. It was almost like playing Batman with a utility belt. And they even took away my money! We already lose everything at the start of BG2. It seems cruel to me to do almost the same in SoD. And since I soloed S., I start SoD solo...and that means leaving behind a lot of the loot in the starting area.

    I also would like to have chosen some different weapon proficiencies, and am thinking more and more I want to dual to mage, in which case I would spend my thief points a bit differently. Am I just being nitpicky again?

  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    I have never, ever played a shadow dancer..maybe I should eekeeper my current charname to one. Wizard slayer isn't really that fun.

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    Gatekeep3r wrote: »
    I have never, ever played a shadow dancer..maybe I should eekeeper my current charname to one. Wizard slayer isn't really that fun.

    Worth a try, yes? Worst case you eekeeper it again lol.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 604
    edited April 29
    If there are some lessons learned on what you'd do differently with a mage/thief character, why not put those lessons into practice right away by going through SoD with a multiclassed mage/thief or fighter/mage/thief, rather than dualing your existing character and then trudging through SoD with your fingers crossed that many hours down the road you might eventually see what it's like to combine mage and thief in a single character?

    ElysianEchoes
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @ElysianEchoes A Shadowdancer does not benefit from a dualclass to mage as much as other thief kits do.
    His ability to go invisible at will is not nearly as valuable when you have access to wizard spells that also permit you invisibility at will. But the disadvantages (no traps, inferior backstabbing multiplier and less thief points per level) still apply.

    @Gatekeep3r I do not think I would try to completely change my character's class with EE-Keeper if I did not have to. Often it is much easier to simply copy the game file into the mpsave folder, replace the main character on the start-up screen, save the game, and move the file back to the single player folder. [if you do this, remember to empty the protagonist's inventory before deleting the character]

    ElysianEchoes
  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    edited April 29
    @jsaving , it's the idea of being shadow that I like. I use the advanced AI to only HiPS whenever possible. I feel like it makes my character a shadow that only takes corporeal form when necessary to affect something physically. What was that movie? Or was it a show? There was a character the villain sent out to assassinate people. But she was always in pain. And had to sleep in a chamber designed to stabilize her molecules...

    Anyway, tangent end lol. I think you're right that the downtime probably just isn't worth it. A multiclass can almost do the same with spells, I guess. I'd just have to manage my resources more carefully. Are potions of invis plentiful in SoD and BG2?

    Edit: after rereading my own post, I see I didn't mention spells at all. Maybe that's my answer lol

    Edit 2: ok I did mention spells... I'm scatterbrained again.

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    edited April 29
    Thanks for more insight, @Humanoid_Taifun . Perhaps I'll save the thief/mage combo for later. Or for Icewind Dale. And just let my Whisper develop naturally rather than start over.

    Appreciate the input, you guys!

    Edit: fixed spelling

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    @jsaving , @Zaxares , @Humanoid_Taifun , thank you guys for encouraging me to keep going with my shadow dancer. I made it through SoD!

    Just wish I could download BG2, but Google =_=

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 604
    That's great, congratulations! And you are in for a treat, BG2 is the best of them all...

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 475
    edited May 10
    jsaving wrote: »
    That's great, congratulations! And you are in for a treat, BG2 is the best of them all...

    Thanks! Unfortunately, until Google puts BG2 back up, I only have BG and SoD, unless I go looking for a pirated copy of the APK, which doesn't appeal to me. I'm definitely looking forward to talking the shadow dancer through BG2.

    Meanwhile, what class shall I try next?

    Edit: clarification

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 522
    Congratulations! :) And what do you mean by Google? Did you mean GoG? Because it is actually on sale now, at a 60% discount.

    https://www.gog.com/game/baldurs_gate_2_enhanced_edition

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