Wellyn's ghost and a paladin
Arvia
Member Posts: 2,101
I'm very serious about roleplaying. I try to listen to my conscience as if it's real. So, I'm a paladin. I'm torn between the lawful path and what I feel to be right. Of course I get the stuffed bear as soon as possible. But what about the murderer? The game gives me no lawful path to bring him to justice, but how can I let a child murderer walk away?!
By telling myself that the ghost scared him enough to repent?
Or because following the law (in the city of coin, not of justice) outweighs protecting the helpless and innocent?
Killing a panicking person who tries to flee feels wrong too, of course, no matter what he did...
By telling myself that the ghost scared him enough to repent?
Or because following the law (in the city of coin, not of justice) outweighs protecting the helpless and innocent?
Killing a panicking person who tries to flee feels wrong too, of course, no matter what he did...
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So long as fantasy literature remembers that guards exist and are paid to do things beyond loitering around or dying while trying to apprehend the protagonist, I am happy.
Of course I can build my own justification for everything I like. But I really wonder how a paladin should act in this case.
Sure, looking back now they seem like totally evil douchebags but we wouldn't think that way if we lived back then either. If you were a paladin in medieval times, or in a setting like D&D that mimics those times, with the morals of today's society, you'd likely be a total pariah hated by evil and 'good' people alike.
Off, did you choose the thief side ?
Yes I chose the thief side for lack of alternatives, because I need to save Imoen from Irenicus and there is no decent solution. However, I told Aran Linvail I wouldn't do criminal jobs for him and I didn't do Mae'Var's guildhall quest.
If even my favourite inquisitor Sir Keldorn accepts working with the thieves to get my friend back, I'll take his lead and say my prayers and donate to the temples to atone for my association with criminals. Desperate times...
Burning witches is a renaissance thing, mostly. The inquisition being the origin of the modern judiciary, they really tried their best to apply the law fairly*, and most people got a second chance, if they confessed their wrongdoings and were repentant.
People getting killed for little reason and with no consequence certainly happened. But one of the main reasons so many knights went off to the crusades was that all the killing going on in Europe was not all morally okay and they were hoping to gain absolution in this holy quest.
Their set of morals was different from modern morals, certainly, and to even say that is to incorrectly imply that all of Europe had a single set of morals (throughout several hundred years). But anyway, hesitating about killing somebody is not anti-medieval.
@Arvia That is one of the easy ways for a DM to start a major argument with the players. Give them a bunch of thugs in the middle of nowhere and have them surrender.
Or when they fight their way through an orc stronghold, drop a bunch of orc babies on them. (orcs being always Chaotic Evil).
These questions have never been answered satisfactorily.
*The jurisdiction of the inquisition was limited anyway, and the final word often lay with somebody else.
Unfortunately, the game never gives you the option to do that. So, I usually just have to pretend that local law enforcement has given me the authority to follow my discretion against criminals, thieves, and murderers. If any game villain tries to surrender, I usually take that option, because I won't kill a person begging for his or her life and not forcing me to defend myself. But it doesn't happen very often in the game programming.
You might be interested in a mod called "Alternatives" for BG2. It gives the much more palatable option of an order of paladins getting you the ship to Spellhold so that you don't have to work for the Thieves' Guild or a coven of vampires. Unmodded, I always choose the thieves, as the lesser of two evils. There's no way for a paladin to rescue Imoen or finish the game without rationalizing that choice somehow.
Playing a paladin and REALLY roleplaying by conscience (and finally feeling GOOD about missing out some stuff because it's the right thing to do) is a nice enough challenge for the moment.
Yeah, due process isn't really a thing in The Realms, and paladins often enforce the "laws" of their god rather than the laws of any government anyway.
I can't imagine Aran Linvail surrendering, if given the option. Only if he knew he could buy himself out somehow. And the guy is charismatic enough to make you overlook it, but he IS evil, and types like Bloodscalp and Mae'Var are disgustingly evil and they answer to him. In my first playthrough I even liked Aran, somehow. Until I stumbled across the other rooms in his cellar.
And while a lawful neutral government might appreciate organized crime answering to a strict master as opposed to anarchy and chaos in the streets, this is NOT how an order of paladins would see it. I understand the position that it keeps crime in check, you know, like Pratchett's (God rest his soul) Lord Vetinari cooperating with the Widowmaker, but we are talking about a holy order answering to a god. They SMITE evil. Mercy is for the repentant only. And I can't imagine that from the Shadow Thieves.
And a gangrenous limb has to be removed before it destroys the whole body...
But after playing that mod I will see if I find it too bloodthirsty.
I guess I will have to learn to write my own mods. When I have time. In 30 years when I retire ?
Edited: Ok now I've read all the discussions of her being 15 and having an annoying voice. I'll need more information before I put it in my "maybe next time" list. Anyway, my old laptop just died, it's back to vanilla BG1EE on Android until I get a new one or BG2 returns to Google Play Store...
I've played D&D for a long time (many a year ago). Alignment is not meant to be a straight jacket, and generally neutral good characters can do something chaotic neutral or even neutral evil once in a while. The point of the game is creating a rounded individual, not a stereotype. Paladins are more complicated, because the very essence of paladinhood is being a better person than Jesus and Ghandi combined. But that still doesn't mean you're supposed to white knight your way through everything, because any half decent DM will introduce situations that challenge your character. Choices have to be made all the time, but many times you can justify 'less than lawful good' options even as a paladin. All depends on how you approach the situation. High wisdom seems to work as well. I've played three paladins over a course of about 12 years, and I've fallen once. Never forget Sir Burger King. Sad part was that he was actually the strongest character I ever had. The ability score rolls were out of this world.
Gray Guards.
You're a Bhaalspawn, you've been to hell and back, you've fought demons, vampires, seen death and mutilation, the most evil essence there ever has been is in your blood and filling your head with nightmares and terrors.
You're not just another paladin.. you're more than that. Your spirit, conscience and knowledge of the abyss and the evils it is home to, pretty much makes sure that you are not a pure and untarnished soul.
You're a gray guard.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Gray_guard
You are judge, jury and executioner. As a paladin, you are expected to function as all three, when the situation demands it. Now do your duty and gib that child murdering gnome.
The Grey Guards sound like the paladins got themselves a Section 31 ?
Edit: Of course I killed him. Though I feel bad because he tried to flee. But struggling conscience is no excuse to neglect duty. And then my notebook died, too. Great.
This being said, Athkatla is a very lawless place and I could see Paladin acting as judge and executioner. Even so the way it is done is a bit too chaotic. Another corpse turning up in the slums without explanation hardly helps the cause of law.
Btw Paladins are actually hammer of their god, can judge and make descisions on her own. No need a "cool" judge dredd type gray guards for the settings. Or chaotic good knights just because the kids dont like to play lawful knights with serious descisions, not just robbing, pick pocketing killing everybody.
The most of the player characters whom play for he best result(killing good creatures for the loot etc.) seems neutral evil in that way, but said they are chaotic neutral or even neutral good and try to somewhat justity their moves.
But thats another story.
if a pally has to respect and enforce law, so can not side with thieves or maybe kill an assassin of a child, why should he try to reach the cw prison and free a criminal? cause imoen is a criminal, she is in jail cause she violated the law casting a spell without having the licence to do it.
the right way for a pally is to try to help imoen in a legal way, contacting the spokesperson of the cw, capturing a criminal ranger for the cw, bringing his body to tolgerias and never getting into the planar sphere, and slamming against a rubber wall, frustrating as it can be...
never getting beyond chap 2.
so the only possible rp way to play a pally is to have him following his own feelings about what is right and what is wrong, he is not a policeman at the service of an established system, he is a revolutionary, willing to fight for what he feels a good cause, and his loyalty, the legal part of his alignment, is only to that cause, not to the laws that rule the society he is living in.
siding with thieves, being judge and executor of child assassins and trying to reach a place he has not the right to reach, probably for breaking into it with force to free imoen