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Wellyn's ghost and a paladin

1356

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,443
    afaik no other door in the whole game that is communicating with he public road is trapped, but the 2 doors of the kangy quest and the one of the twisted rune. not even the one of the complex in the temple district where you loot celestial fury, that has more then a trap inside.
    many doors locked but only those 2 trapped in all the game, even more suspicious.
    maybe i am wrong and also the door to neb's house is trapped, but also there is a particularly evil guy, this suggest that in amn people don't usually put traps on doors and not inside houses or dungeons, if has not very evil things to do in those houses.

    Arvia
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    Raduziel wrote: »
    Arvia wrote: »
    Btw doors could be trapped for various good reasons. If I had to live in the Docks District I would most certainly invest in door traps!

    That's true but:

    1) No other door in the entire district is trapped - not even the Harper's complex or the house with the pair of necromancers that the Harper's ask you to get rid off or the house of the guy who is a scaping fugitive from the CW or the HQ of the local militia or the house of a CW who is being hunted by the Shadow Thieves etc...

    2) As I said, it is right besides a building that had a guild of thieves.

    So it does gets suspicious.
    There is nothing illegal about trapping doors in Athkatla (maybe they do it because they live next to thieves?), but breaking & entering is. It's just that game never acknowledges that. Just like you can have your party thief happily robbing everyone blind under your paladin's leadership.

    However, there is just something that rubs me wrong about suspecting people because they happen to live in a rough neighbourhood with criminals for neighbours. Comes too close to real life, I suppose.

    gorgonzola
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 574
    The game is not to blame for this, but using the SCS option of having the cowled wizards detect spellcasting in most indoor areas, it does bother me that they keep coming to Kangaxx' aid when I fight him.

    Yeah, that's fairly dumb. Will fix.

    gorgonzola
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,282
    It's not suspecting people.

    You just came out of a building that has several entries that leaves you at different points of the Docks District. That building had a thieves' guild with a bloodlust leader. Wouldn't hurt to check things around.

    But maybe it is just the soldier in me speaking. I've participated in about 15 major operations to take down some drug dealers and the standard procedure was to check all entries and also look the neighborhood to see if we could find secret tunnels - what we often did.

    Everyone in the Dock Districts has reasons to lock and trap their doors - some more than others, as I've stated about - however, only one building does that. And as we don't have time, resources or legal ground to harass the whole neighborhood we trend to check what: i) was around the target's safehouse and ii) breaks a pattern.

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBellgorgonzolaBelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    edited April 7
    Raduziel wrote: »
    It's not suspecting people.

    You just came out of a building that has several entries that leaves you at different points of the Docks District. That building had a thieves' guild with a bloodlust leader. Wouldn't hurt to check things around.
    On whose authority, though? When you were a soldier, I assume you didn't do these drug runs on your own, as a self-styled vigilante. In the case of Kangaxx, you can't even report to the churches or the Radiant Heart order to ask for guidance, or help.

    And while there are enough clues to warrant protection from undead, plenty of first time players got caught by 'trap the soul' here. In which case good ole Kanggy would be free to rain destruction on the city. It'd would make an interesting story about hubris and good intentions, if it were not for power word reload. :D

    ElysianEchoes
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 346
    *sigh* Life would be so much easier without a conscience.

    BelgarathMTH
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @chimaera I am not convinced that trapping your door is legal.
    What guarantee do you have that the trap does not trigger from somebody knocking on the door? Yes, many places give you the right to lethal force in the case of a breaking and entering, but a trap is automatic, and is incapable of differentiating between targets. (yes, Baldur's Gate traps are different) Imagine there is a fire in the night and somebody attempts to open the door to warn you. Or the mailman has a large package that does not fit into your mailbox.

    BelgarathMTH
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    edited April 7
    @Humanoid_Taifun
    You are right in that I don't know if it's legal in Athkatla. :p I was not talking about real-life door trapping here, however. I'm not sure Athkatla even has a post service. :D

    edit: Could you imagine it, though? Some poor mailman braving the spiders and zombies in the crypt, in order to deliver a package to Bodhi. Or the Twisted Rune: Vaxall, we need one of your eyes, the postman got disintegrated again and someone has to go down and pick up the package.

    ArviaBalrog99
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 346
    While your discussion is very entertaining to watch (hilarious image, poor postman), my council of personalities has decided. I will ignore the trapped doors and miss out on the items and XP.
    To see if I can finish the game this way (Also noted: don't bribe the CW for a "license") was the whole idea. No sense in playing a paladin and then finding excuses to do the stuff I did as a berserker.
    I will, however, open the sarcophagus in the sewers. No reason not to, for an Undead Hunter. If the lich tells me about Kangaxx (I don't remember if it was him or the other, which I wouldn't fight because it's another hidden door, in an inn or something ) I have an explanation to open the door. If not, not.
    The Twisted Rune will have to wait for another hero. Poor postman.

    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,443
    I am not convinced that trapping your door is legal.
    talking of rl in italy where i live even to put traps inside my own propriety is illegal, if a thief is damaged or killed by them i will go to jail, and italy and usa have different politics about traps, weapons, searches and all that stuff. in italy is much more difficult to carry around or own weapons, and the findings of illegal searches can be used as evidence in trials.
    but to assume that a society like the one of bg2 uses modern standards imo is silly, until not much time ago things like a search warrant was absolutely not needed, i suppose that a medieval law enforcer could break in almost every building if it was not own by some very influential member of the community.

    and also about the birbe to the cw i don't think that we can apply a modern point of view to determine if is a completely legit way or something evil a pally should avoid. i lack of lore about the forgotten realms, but the cw, that are attacked by amnish solders if they attack you, have 2 high ranked representatives in the government building, and the tax or birbe for the licence is asked there, not in some shady dark alley.
    imo the whole thing is quite gray and can be rp in both ways.

    has also to be told that as a pally should not take the maevar quest, should deal with the st the minimum possible and only to rescue imoen, charname does not even know that there is a maevar's thieves guild, there is only the gorch shop near the trapped door, so some of the reasons of @Raduziel about checking also that door are not useful to a decision as are things that charname ignores completely.
    only assume that charname, that knows much better then us how the things go in his world, knows that a trapped door has a big chance to contain something evil, thing that we players can suppose true as all the trapped doors in the game are so, or the lich in the sewers telling something about kangaxx can be valid reasons to check the trapped doors.

    anyway @Arvia as you have taken a decision, somehow the hardest one, the less greedy, go straight on the route you have established, you have all my respect, that is growing every post of yours i read.
    and i suppose i am not alone, for a new forum member to rank so high like you in the week leaders is far from a common thing.

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,104
    edited April 7
    Arvia wrote: »
    @Humanoid_Taifun by the time you are ready to tackle Kangaxx you still don't want to spare the 5000gp to keep the CW out of your hair?

    I'm wondering if I should do Kangaxx or not. As an Undead Hunter I should probably wipe him off the face of Faerun, and the two liches you have to fight to get his body parts, but without meta knowledge, how would it ever occur to a paladin to break into an unmarked trapped house without reason? Or open the sarcophagus in the Unseeing Eye dungeon, where they clearly ask you not to release the great evil within? And for the other part it also was behind a secret locked door in an inn, same as the room where you get the Daystar.

    I hate the thought but I don't think I should do it.

    @Arvia , I agree with you on this. Kangaxx is contained, permanently, unless someone finds and reassembles those parts. They were scattered, likely by paladins or other good people, specifically to deal with the Kangaxx threat once and for all. I think the only honest motivation for releasing him is greed and power-hunger. It is well-known, presumably, that many powerful and dangerous magical treasures were sealed up with him.

    For the reasons you mention, I don't think there's a good reason for a paladin to fight any of the liches in SoA, or at least not the ones you bring up. Paladins don't go poking around where they're not invited, without probable cause, and we certainly don't break and enter for no good reason. We also don't release safely contained ancient evil powers just so we can prove ourselves by killing them (sin of Pride).

    The only thing I can think of, is have you tried casting Detect Evil inside the inn where the Daystar lich is hidden to see if he pings through the door? You could RP that you cast it regularly when entering new places or inns, or meeting new people, as part of your daily vigilance routines.

    ArviagorgonzolaJuliusBorisov
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,104
    Arvia wrote: »
    @Raduziel I'm NEVER going to follow Helm! Torm, in RP, most likely.

    I was more concerned about justifying to get to Kangaxx since I have no reason to break down that particular door.
    Or could the ability to Detect Evil be used as an explanation? That if anyone feels the evil next to the Sarcophagus, maybe an Undead Hunter could feel it from farther away and go check the building? Does this make sense?

    Out of curiosity, what is your problem with Helm? I'm actually sympathetic that he had to kill the original Mystra. She was trying to circumvent Ao's lawful decree, and it was Helm's duty to stop her. Helm's devotion to duty was the reason Ao let him keep his powers during the Time of Troubles, and he was the only deity not cast down. I can see myself making the same choices if I were Helm, so sometimes I don't mind playing one of his devout followers.

    Of course, I also really like Torm and Tyr. The alliance between Torm and Bahamut is cool stuff, especially since I like dragons and hate to kill them, and Tyr's self-sacrifice of his hand is very noble and praiseworthy.

  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 346
    @BelgarathMTH I'm wondering about this all the time. But Detect Evil only makes a person glow, not a place behind a door, I think.
    Hm, I thought I could justify opening the sarcophagus in the sewers, but you are probably right. It was sealed for a very good reason, probably by people like us, and it would be quite arrogant to think I should be the one to fight it.
    You have much more experience with lawful good in general and paladins, so I'm going to trust your judgement. I wasn't going to use the ring of Gaxx anyway.
    Daystar is nice but not necessary.
    And now that I think of it, I can't upgrade the Mace of Disruption either... last playthrough I forgot for a moment that I was supposed to be lawful good and offered the fake illithium to Sarles, out of pure habit. Then Keldorn blurted out the truth right in front of him because he couldn't tolerate a lie. That was the moment my character fell hopelessly in love with him 😂

    gorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 346
    @BelgarathMTH I just think that Helm is too strict in duty and won't allow a little leeway for the sake of compassion. I can't see myself there.
    I see Torm more as a compromise (Ilmater being the other extreme).
    Also, I like Bahamut a lot.

    BelgarathMTHThacoBell
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,104
    @Arvia , (possible BG1 minor spoiler?)
    Well, the priest of Helm in Nashkel says that forgiveness and redemption are part of Helm's tenets when he takes custody of Commander Brage, with the intention of healing him from the cursed sword and helping him make restitution. The game considers it the merciful resolution of the quest, since Brage is executed for his crimes while under the curse, if you turn him into the town guard. Also, Helm is known for being kind to children, and encouraging his followers to do the same. So, I don't think he's quite as lacking in compassion as many people make him out to be.

    Arvia
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 346
    @BelgarathMTH okay I admit I lack solid background information on Helm. I was judging by the behaviour of his priests and knights in BG2 and Watcher's Keep.

    @gorgonzola now I'm embarrassed, but thank you.
    You're probably just not used to too many Lady Knights... errr.... Nerds.

    BelgarathMTHgorgonzola
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @BelgarathMTH Except the lich has not been sealed away. It is just a sarcophagus standing around, accessible to anyone who might wish to open it.
    I do not exactly remember the dialogue concerning it, but is there any evidence at all that the creature is even imprisoned in there rather than just inhabiting it?

    gorgonzola
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    edited April 7
    @BelgarathMTH Except the lich has not been sealed away. It is just a sarcophagus standing around, accessible to anyone who might wish to open it.
    I do not exactly remember the dialogue concerning it, but is there any evidence at all that the creature is even imprisoned in there rather than just inhabiting it?

    Well, good ole Kangy tells you he was imprisoned. The shade lich tells you he is guarding an ancient evil or sth like that. The other lich also warns you. And the golden bones radiate evil. So it all depends whether your character is capable of adding 1+1.

    BelgarathMTHgorgonzola
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 346
    I don't remember which of the two liches tells you about Kangaxx. I think it was the other one, in the Gate District?
    I'll see what the man in the Unseeing Eye crypt tells me exactly and then decide. "Inhabited" by a great evil should encourage an Undead Hunter to check it, "sealed away" to leave it alone.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,443
    inhabited or sealed it possibly does not matter.
    if the @Arvia 's pally can free the lich someone far less badass can do it in the future, that lich is a bomb waiting the right chance to explode. to free and kill him can be both a sin of pride or self confidence of a person that having the hunting of undeads as mission and goal think that is much better that the bomb is triggered by her then by some fool in search of easy loot.

    about the hints that charname receive it depends on how she think the source is credible.
    it was also told to her by the same person that advice her to not touch the sarcophagus that the unseeing eye could not be defeated but using the artifact against the beholders, many charnames ( and their ferrets :) ) in the past realized that it was not true at all, sassar can be wrong also about the sarcophagus.
    after defeating the shade lich and getting the golden arms and legs a specialist of undeads should figure out the kind of magic that was used and the nature of the creature that was split in 3 parts. to kill a demilich is hard but not impossible.
    i am not sure but probably is the lich in the unseeing eye area and not the elemental one tells you about kangaxx as is the only one you find doing the other quests rather then exploring places that seem to be regular houses.

  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 404
    Gorgonzola points at a serious flaw within the game.

    It would be very difficult to get through it all, given the things you -must- do in order to complete the game.
    Many things seem largely mutually exclusive to that of being a paladin.

    Which is why i see my BG paladins as Gray Guards.
    There's just too much law breaking and acts of chaos to remain a regular paladin.

    A paladin's path to Imoen would be through negotiation with the cowled wizards, or somehow gaining access through legitimate ways.. and certainly not working with thieves or vampires.

    What Paladin could gain access to a Shadow Thief compound and NOT share everything he learns with local law enforcement AND stay paladin? imo only a Gray Guard could get away with that.

    gorgonzola
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    inhabited or sealed it possibly does not matter.
    if the @Arvia 's pally can free the lich someone far less badass can do it in the future, that lich is a bomb waiting the right chance to explode. to free and kill him can be both a sin of pride or self confidence of a person that having the hunting of undeads as mission and goal think that is much better that the bomb is triggered by her then by some fool in search of easy loot.
    Even if your paladin gets the bones, what's the justification for returning them, when you could return them to the order for safekeeping? That's far less risk for the Athkatlan population than assuming you can defeat whatever is the owner of these bones. The player knows it's a demilich, but the paladin in this story does not; that's metagaming knowledge.

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,586
    I mean, we have one lich saying he was wrongfully imprisoned, and another lich saying he deserves it. Its not lie one source is more trustworthy than another. Its also entirely possible that the evil felt coming from the bones is due to an evil curse, used to keep a righteous mage trapped in undeath. Realistically, there is very little real information, and rping either way is equally plausible.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,443
    chimaera wrote: »
    The player knows it's a demilich, but the paladin in this story does not; that's metagaming knowledge.
    this is a special case as charname is not a generic pally, is an undead hunter. the player surely knows only trough metagame, but can rp that his specialized paladin has enough knowledge or other ways to sense/guess what is going on.
    or can not, each one has his way to rp.

    what @Arvia is very good at is to rp without any compromise with the pg aspect of the game, but imo to rp a game like this is like to read a book, you use it to create a much more detailed image of the word of the book/game in your mind. you can use the forgotten realms lore to add more detail to your rp if you have it, or if like me you lack of it you create the missing bits from a lore that you create from medieval or fantasy books of different origin and so on. i lack of lore about torm, helm and the many gods, but my pally would be a paladin of lathander, from what i can learn of lathander from the game, even if maybe is not possible to be a lathander pally... for me to rp an helm pally is to rp lawful stupid, or lawful rigid. lathander sounds to my taste more lawful good where the compassion of the goodness give a new better aspect at the rigor of the law. so to rp that there is some additional clue, that is not shown in the limited information we get from the game, if you want to rp that your undead hunter destroy some of the most powerful and dangerous undeads of amn why not? you are rp an undead hunter, let him have a glorious adventure, is not like doing intentionally evil things for the greed, but if you do it for the ring and xp and the greed then the very same decision becomes wrong.
    only a player can set the way he rp the game, as long as he is still rp, and not falling into greed.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    I can excuse freeing Kangaxx if you are naive enough to believe his lies.
    However an undead hunter is not going to trust an undead that has been torn apart and sealed and whose limbs radiate evil.
    Unfortunately for paladins, you cannot attack him without restoring him first.
    Unfortunately for people of looser morals, you cannot remove the ring from his finger when you have his golden limbs.
    Kangaxx is a strange man.

    gorgonzola
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    chimaera wrote: »
    The player knows it's a demilich, but the paladin in this story does not; that's metagaming knowledge.
    this is a special case as charname is not a generic pally, is an undead hunter. the player surely knows only trough metagame, but can rp that his specialized paladin has enough knowledge or other ways to sense/guess what is going on.
    or can not, each one has his way to rp.
    Even an undead hunter doesn't come automatically equipped with the knowledge about all undead monsters, just like mage doesn't start knowing all the spells. Your paladin doesn't have decades of experience, they are maybe one year away from leaving Candlekeep. A cavalier doesn't automatically sense Firkraag is a dragon, so I see no reason why an undead hunter could sense from the bones it's a demilich.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 738
    chimaera wrote: »
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    chimaera wrote: »
    The player knows it's a demilich, but the paladin in this story does not; that's metagaming knowledge.
    this is a special case as charname is not a generic pally, is an undead hunter. the player surely knows only trough metagame, but can rp that his specialized paladin has enough knowledge or other ways to sense/guess what is going on.
    or can not, each one has his way to rp.
    Even an undead hunter doesn't come automatically equipped with the knowledge about all undead monsters, just like mage doesn't start knowing all the spells. Your paladin doesn't have decades of experience, they are maybe one year away from leaving Candlekeep. A cavalier doesn't automatically sense Firkraag is a dragon, so I see no reason why an undead hunter could sense from the bones it's a demilich.

    By the time you deal with Kangax a mage will know most magics and an undead hunter will have had plenty of time to study their craft.

    I know for non-player characters it tends to take much longer to learn these things, but I think you're really understating the growth the player character and their companions underwent in that year.

    gorgonzola
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 806
    Demi-liches are incredibly rare. There are no "Undead-hunting for dummies" books in the game, and even if there were, CHARNAME did not exactly have much time to study.

    And doesn't Kangaxx only become a full demi-lich after you restore him and then destroy his initial lich form, anyway?

    But freeing him is stupid anyway, even if you do not know exactly what he is.

    BelgarathMTHgorgonzolaThacoBell
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 802
    edited April 8
    @Chronicler
    Knowledge has to come from somehwere, though. When SoA came out, Kangaxx was the first demilich the player character would face. There were plenty of complaints about this encounter (and I agree with them), precisely because there was no way for your character to learn about the demliches, and so a lot of charnames would end up imprisoned on the first run. Even if your mage knew 'most magics' by then, they would not know about his particular spell. Heck, even the classic imprisonment spell was not available, from what I recall the scroll was only added with ToB.

    It's not like being an undead hunter gives you a particular insight to the curing vampirism quest either. And by that time you've faced plenty of vamps.

    edit: Just to be clear, I don't think this issue is limited to paladins; this encounter is practically build around metagaming. The only reasonable way I could see for charname to safely defeat a demilich even with no knowledge about their abilities, would be to use protection from undead on the party. But if you do that, the dialogue won't trigger. :p

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 738
    It's implicitly understood that your character is studying their class skills somehow.

    Bards learn their bardic lore, for example, without you actually having to go out and study each and every artifact.

    Your fighter achieves grandmastery without actually having to train under a grandmaster.

    Thieves learn new traps without you having to go through all the rigamarole of finding the blueprints and tracking down the materials and so on and so forth.

    There is absolutely no reason to believe that your level infinity undead hunter is ignorant of the undead.

    gorgonzola
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