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Turn Undead. Can anything be done with it?

GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
This is a spell that the engine casts internally. Although there is no SPL listed, I know that this ability uses the #0 projectile and belongs to the NONE school of magic, and is of the NONE spell type. The controlling function applies the Control Creature effect, and the blow-up the Kill effect. Unfortunately, way too many other spells, abilities and weapons do too, so latching on to those features to change how Turning works isn't going to work. Is there anything that can be done with it? And is there any problem with changing spells and weapons that use the #0 projectile so they use another one, also instantaneous and invisible? I don't think there are any mods that prevent or block or reflect the #0 projectile, for just these reasons, so there seems to be no risk in a wide conversion. Perhaps PRO files that use #0 in Secondary Projectile can be patched with the replacement, too.

This is all a long shot, but, since the patching is only going to affect existent SPL and PRO and ITM files, the invisible SPL of Turning is going to be left alone in its own little world with #0. Then it should be possible to patch undead so they react to that projectile in more interesting ways. I have a notion of a struggle of wills between turners and the more powerful undead - liches, vampires, spectres, where the result may be that the priest himself gets "turned" instead. I can already do this for evil-aligned priests with a reflection of the Control creature effect, and it is very nice - they go red and turn on the party. Then I could change a spell like Remove Curse to remove that, and so on. This part is easy. But I would like to bounce back also the more usual fear effect and the good and neutral-aligned blow-up. Testing this last with a high-level Yeslick was one of the more entertaining spectacles I've got to see lately.


  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,271
    Not sure if it will help you somehow, but an evil cleric is capable of turning a paladin. Maybe you can use this as a starting point to reverse-engineer this process.

  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    Thanks for your tip, Raduziel. I still couldn't find it this way, the SPL just isn't there. But! I'm very glad to say I understood how to go about the blow-up. The key turned out to be changing not Turn Undead but undead themselves. I used a contingency for a test skeleton. It makes it so that when the skeleton takes damage, everyone in the area becomes immune to the Kill effect for 1 second (I can probably whittle it down to less). The second effect on the list makes the skeleton reflect the Kill effect. Without the contingency this makes it a walking kamikaze - whoever kills the skeleton will also die. But it gets blocked for damage, and since undead are already immune to the Slay effect, which is what Quivering Palm and other murder-type powers use, all that can trigger the reflecting is a power with no damage but the Kill effect inside - like the unknowable Turn Undead. :smiley:

    I'm going to have to patch spells that use those Kill EFFs, there are a few. But I got it! I would post the image of level 33 Yeslick after turning my experimental skeleton, but there isn't much to see...

    What I need now is to home in on the fear effect for lower-level turning. It isn't Panic.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,845
    edited April 11
    Melee weapons, internally applied effects, and all targeting modes other than "Preset Target" are hardcoded to use PROJECTL.IDS entry #0.
    The entry in PROJECTL.ids is also hardcoded to an internal projectile, changing the entry in PROJECTL.ids doesn't have any effect.

    Turn undead doesn't use an opcode for low-level turning undead:
    Against non-party members, being turned imposes action RunAwayFrom(object,timer) (or similar) directly on the creature. The only "effect" applied is the visual.
    Against party members (Paladins), being turned applies op24, bypassing immunity to it, for (40 seconds - Paladin level).
    Being controlled by a cleric applies op241, charm type 4, for 1 turn.
    Being chunked by a cleric applies op13, p2=8 (chunked death).

    Immunity(op102) and Reflection(op198) to op13 can only effect op13 directly, not when it's applied by other sources (op55, op238), so your not at a risk of reflecting "Slay" or "Disintegrate", even if they weren't immune to them.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,703
    Goida wrote: »
    Is there anything that can be done with it?

    Move bards somewhere else (I put them in the mage/thief and fighter/mage classes), then recreate clerics in the now-empty bard class. Bard Song is 100% moddable, can be made to do almost anything you want. It's even not that hard to change the Bard Song icon to the Turn Undead icon. Now your "clerics" can have a "Turn Undead" ability that can do whatever you want it to do.

    Alternatively, move clerics into the Shaman class. They would get spontaneous casting, but that's okay, in fact it would balance well against the generally superior arcane spell list. Shamans use bard song, so here again your new "clerics'" modal ability could do whatever you want it to.

    Alternatively, leave clerics in their existing class, and simply disable the Turn Undead button. Instead give them an at-will, toggleable innate ability (or make it an item ability stemming from a holy symbol they must wear). This hand-made modal ability could, again, do whatever you want it to. This is what I do to give a musical cleric kit a "bard song" instead of Turn Undead. The downside here is much smaller, though aesthetically annoying: the player has a disabled button sitting in the game UI.

    Actually that "Turn Undead via holy symbol" thing sounds like a good idea... I think I'll use that.

  • GoidaGoida Member Posts: 118
    Thanks, kjeron. That's general information, but useful to reassure me about possible problems. subtledoctor's methods are too drastic, but the bit about the shamans, that I'm curious about. They have, as we know, a modified "bard song," and the spell that gets repeated round to round has opcode 363, Movement rare check, installed to prevent them from walking around while they "dance." That's set to check the SHAMANDANCE turning state, and it works for them. However, it does not seem to do anything for TURNUNDEAD or NONE. I'm going to have to ask @argent77 if there was anything special about reducing the movement requirements. (argent appears) Did you just raise the "Movement rate" value there?

    If I can get 363 to work for priests and turning, I should be able to force them to stand still while doing it. I don't generally like to make changes that reduce or restrict anything, less is a bore, but running around and dodging while supposedly calling on one's god, and in reality just waiting for more dice rolls in the AOE, is moldy cheese.

    And yes, using the holy symbol to turn is going to be a part of the mod. If this gets made. In fact, a holy symbol is required for turning according to the Player's Handbook.

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