Fish City

Veristek

I've arrived in the Fish City. I have a savegame before making the choice in their civil war and tried both paths. Trying to decide which path to commit to before moving on with the game. The priestess and her daughter seem to be the only nice fishies in the city. The beholder and imps are pretty nice for monsters, but they aren't involved in the civil war.

The insane king? The self-serving bastard prince?

King: You get Wave Blade from Prince's body, get Gauntlets of Crushing from King as reward. You betray the nice priestesses.

Prince: You don't get the two items above, but you get a bit more EXP and make priestesses happy.

A side note: I tried attacking the priestess who was with the Prince when trying to kill the Prince in the rebel base. But somehow, the Priestess is invincible, never dies. Is she an essential character or comes back for more story later on in the game or in ToB?

Which do you choose, and why?

joluv

If I have a Monk in my party, I side with the king; I think that's the only way to get the Gauntlets of Crushing. Otherwise, I side with the rebels and then kill the prince after he takes power. That way gets most of the items and a lot of experience.

ThacoBell

The Prince is at least less evil than the king. Though the king's self destructive policies is probably the safer choice for non-sahuagin. That being said, you can always pickpocket the wave blade off the prince if you side with him.

gorgonzola

is also possible to pickpoket the king if i am not wrong.

the priestess is not essential to the future plot, i always side with he prince so i never fought her, i did not know that she is invincible, and it is strange that she is. a bug?

joluv

You can pickpocket him, but not for the Gauntlets of Crushing. They're created when he gives them to you.

Neverused

Isn't there an option to kill both of them?

Humanoid_Taifun

If you side with the prince first, you can later turn on him, allowing you to get all the rewards.
If you side with the king, then he will disappear and take his goodies along with him.

Veristek

Humanoid_Taifunm, how do I get the Gauntlets of Crushing if I side with the Prince?

Veristek

Tried a couple other things like pickpocketing, still no Gauntlets.

I noticed that if I agree to help the Prince and he gives me a fake rebel heart to deliver to the King, both the Royal Priestess Senityil and Captain Feerlattiys die instantly (recorded in dialogue screen). These are the two who were nice to you in the beginning, giving you the ability to understand fish-talk, and stick up for you when the King was all "meh", and generally the nicest fishies in the city. Why did they die instantly? No battle or anything. I went to where they were at the fish temple area and their bodies were there. Again, no enemies or battle.

The priestess who is invincible if I fight the Prince in his lair is Senior Priestess Sallinithyl, daughter of Royal Priestess Senityil.

Makes me wonder if siding with the Prince is worth it if the two relatively "decent" fishies die, while all the other fishies are basically assholes. Besides, the rebel fishies attack you on sight on the way to the Prince's lair even though you have the Rebel Orb thingie from Royal Priestess Senityil to prove you're friendly with the rebels.

Gatekeep3r

I always side with the prince. He's an arrogant douchebag , but he's the Sahuagin's chance to best the drow in their war. The Sahuagins may be evil, but they're not strictly speaking an enemy of the surface world. They may loot ships and butcher sailors, but it's not like they're planning to invade the mainland. The Drow on the other hand are a constant danger to the surface world. The enemy of my enemy...

jsaving

Sahuagin loot ships and plunder coastal towns, killing nearly everyone they find and enslaving the rest. Hard to see why a good-aligned character would work with either side to end the civil war knowing a resolution would cause them to resume their surface-world plundering.

(But if you are only asking which path maximizes your loot, it barely matters who you side with.)

DreadKhan

Yeah, I think Sahuagin aren't less evil than Drow (appreciably, anyways), but Sahuagin are way less of an actual threat, despite being physically dangerous beings, whereas Drow require way more years to reach the same level of threat IIRC. I think screwing over the Sahuagin is probably not really the best idea, by which I mean you should probably side with the Prince unless you're lawful, especially evil, then it makes great sense to side with the King. Note, monks are lawful, so by respecting legit authority, they gain a big boon. Interesting if this did play a role in the design, but I sure don't know.

Humanoid_Taifun

@Veristek I was wrong. You do not get the gauntlets from the king this way. (though there is a second pair of Gauntlets of Crushing to be had with the Enhanced Edition, I believe)

joluv

Humanoid_Taifun wrote: »

there is a second pair of Gauntlets of Crushing to be had with the Enhanced Edition, I believe

Only in the Black Pits II.

Gatekeep3r

jsaving wrote: »

Sahuagin loot ships and plunder coastal towns, killing nearly everyone they find and enslaving the rest. Hard to see why a good-aligned character would work with either side to end the civil war knowing a resolution would cause them to resume their surface-world plundering.

(But if you are only asking which path maximizes your loot, it barely matters who you side with.)

As long as the Sahuagin-Drow war lasts, good people profit. Both races are evil and they're wasting their potential fighting each other. A LG character probably wouldn't see it as such, but CG definetly and NG could go either way.

Maurvir

Ending the civil war might make them more likely to go after people on the surface, but it will also redirect their efforts against the Drow. On the flip-side, an indefinitely weakened Suhuagin will either be defeated by the Drow, or at least let up the pressure on them, and the Drow are definitely the worse threat to the surface. Fish are limited to the beachfront while the Underdark can reach its tentacles nearly anywhere.

Humanoid_Taifun

Human civilization is generally also focused on the coastline. The Sahuagin may not be able to completely end human life, but basically all the big cities and most of the important trade routes are within reach. Losing all that would be a blow that would end civilization.

Edit: I am probably wrong. In the world of DnD, you can just have a single wizard with a few bags of holding teleport back and forth between two cities and do all the transport business that you would want.
Magic would also help with procuring food and water.

jsaving

Totally agree that drow are by far the worst threat to the surface because they are vastly stronger than the sahuagin, civil war or no. However that very strength means the sahuagin are far too weak to pose a threat to the drow, civil war or no. Whereas 0-level surfacers in coastal towns are easy prey once the distractions of the civil war are lifted. So I'd argue the question for a good-aligned character isn't which side should be left to prey on surfacers, but rather, whether it is better to fight both sides from the outset (LG) or play along with one side before eventually turning on it (CG).

DreadKhan

Humanoid_Taifun wrote: »

Human civilization is generally also focused on the coastline. The Sahuagin may not be able to completely end human life, but basically all the big cities and most of the important trade routes are within reach. Losing all that would be a blow that would end civilization.

Edit: I am probably wrong. In the world of DnD, you can just have a single wizard with a few bags of holding teleport back and forth between two cities and do all the transport business that you would want.
Magic would also help with procuring food and water.

From what I understand, that would have been done in Netheril, or one of the other super-magical kingdoms, but most Faerun kingdoms/empires isn't magical enough to have an oversupply of bags of holding. Still, I imagine Thay uses extra-dimensional spaces to move goods around, with all their enclaves during the BG2 era.

Note, a bag of holding can only carry what fits in it, and it's REALLY tedious actually to load one up and unload it completely. Mind you, so is a large ship!

Edit: I'm not sure I would say the Drow are THAT much better than Sahuagin, its not like the Drow exterminated the Underdark's equivalent species, the Kuo Toa, who are arguably less threatening. The Drow trying to actively exterminate or defeat any major power is very questionable IMHO, because they are, despite being Neutral Evil generally, incredibly bad at working together. Their chief Godess is very chaotic, and her priests lead most cities quite tyrannically, and they are not going to be that good at keeping a group very prone to infighting working on a goal together long term. I dunno, I think there is a reason the Drow couldn't even drive the elves away from the ruins, even after they removed Adalon from the picture. I suppose they may have been planning a major offensive?

Veristek

One thing to consider. The fish city is in an air bubble on the ocean floor. The Drow and Ith's can't exactly swim up to the surface or the shore from the fish city, even if they took it over. The city would just be living space for the air-breathers. Besides, a simple breach could flood the city, AND then the Underdark with ocean water. Flood Ust Natha and the rest of the Underdark region, making it unusable by other Underdark cities.

And a Good party would exterminate all Drow life in Ust Natha and its area including the Kua-Toa lairs, Beholder lairs, and Ith city. If you have Aerie and Keldorn in the same party in Fish City, Aerie asks if we should give these fishies a chance, and Keldorn of all people basically says "hell no, kill them all, they're all evil, genocide them all". This coming from a guy who would try to reason with evil characters like Korgan, Dorn, or Edwin.

gorgonzola

but has no problem to kill viconia if she is in the party.
with the evil korgan he is comrade, if he has not problems with dorn, i never used him as is too evil for my taste it is the proof that our beloved pally is more racist then interested to fight evilness

Blomdor

The issue of Senityili and Feerlattiys spontaneously dying upon the receipt of the fake rebel heart bugs me as well. There's no obvious reason why it happens, unless we are meant to interpret their demise as being no more than a result of the king's insane, random bloodlust. Either way, it's disappointing; they're both actually quite civil to the party if you respond in kind, regardless of what might otherwise be expected of sahuagin according to D&D tradition, and Senityili tries honestly to help you, even if only for the good of her city and her people. At least her daughter can be spared without any such mysterious intervention from the game.

If it is possible that a rare few drow (Soulafein, Drizzt, potentially Viconia) are not constantly and grotesquely evil, I don't see why the same might not be true for sahuagin.

Honestly, judging from their portrayal in BG2's Ust Natha, I'm not sure how drow as a whole can even sustain a population large enough to form cities. They seem far too invested in sabotaging, stabbing, and torturing each other for the pettiest of reasons to manage that degree of coexistence with others of their own kind. The motivation is there, I suppose, but it would take one hell of a leader to keep an actual army of them from more or less eating themselves alive.

Veristek

Hexxat is the only one that Keldorn forces you to choose, "me or her". He does end up fighting evil party members if they stay together too long, but he never says "kill all dwarves" or "kill all half-orcs". Its ironic, because many people in Faerun are racist against half-orcs or half-elves or any "half" breeds.

I may be wrong, though. Still working through Chapter 5 and Underdark. I know I haven't seen all his dialogues yet, so keeping an eye on it. This is why I really enjoy NPC and party dialogues in BG, gives us insights into their personalities. Now, if more modern RPG's followed BG's example with party interactions....

Khyron

I just refuse to go along with anything they say, then I kill them all.

Because sushi.

gorgonzola

Blomdor wrote: »

If it is possible that a rare few drow (Soulafein, Drizzt, potentially Viconia) are not constantly and grotesquely evil, I don't see why the same might not be true for sahuagin.

Elistraee, daughter of Lolith, and hew followers are a clear proof that the drow can be something else then evil, even if the evil ones are the largest number. Largest, but the choice to be different is not only by wery few like the ones you named, they are not exceptions to a rule but the part represented in our games of a larger minority.

The drow society survives because of the matriarchy, there is a lot of violence, but usually people get tortured if punished, not killed. Killing is more a thing of the female drows to eliminate possible competitors for the leadership of the matriarchy, or some families are exterminated, like it happens to the one of viconia, in the fight between different matriarchies to lead a town.

But it is not a systematic killing of most of the population, and if we see the RL we see that the humans somehow are not less cruel as they kill as well, in a differently ritualized way, the war, but even wars that caused millions of deaths never affected in a sensible rate the population increase on a mid or long term.

@Veristek Keldorn never say "kill all dwarves" and actually likes them as he is in very good terms with an evil one if they are together in the party. But with some other races, the "fishes" and the drows are good examples, he is far less tolerant. His way to be good is certainly different from the one of imoen or aerie, but it is only a plus of the game as gives more depth to the npc personalities.

@Khyron sushi?

ThacoBell

No good character endorses genocide.

OrlonKronsteen

Khyron wrote: »

I just refuse to go along with anything they say, then I kill them all.

Because sushi.

As much as I love sushi, I just can't imagine myself tucking into a plate of Sahuagin rolls.

Clubboth

I believe, the priestess Senityili sees herself as a tool of Sekolah - prophet like. When the prediction becomes reality, she sacrifices herself to her deity to boost the new régime. Forcing the blessing of the big-fish on the residual society. Well, captain Feerlattiys does, what captains are supposed to do, he he. I might be wrong.

Veristek

Hmm, so would keldorn have a touch of evilness in him by advocating genocide of the fishes? I like three dimensional characters, not one dimensional straight pure good or pure evil.

ThacoBell

@Veristek Does he?

gorgonzola

Veristek wrote: »

If you have Aerie and Keldorn in the same party in Fish City, Aerie asks if we should give these fishies a chance, and Keldorn of all people basically says "hell no, kill them all, they're all evil, genocide them all".