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Yoshimo, SoD and Dual-classing



  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited May 2019
    DinoDin wrote: »
    You seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying @gorgonzola .
    No, i perfectly understand your point, and i disagree.

    I don't disagree about the choice of a player to have a dual yoshimo and start from the sod xp cap having the pros of the 2 things and not the cons, that is player's freedom.
    I disagree about patching the game to make it possible, there are still too many exceptions to the rules with the npcs that i don't want more of them. Minsc's build is illegal, aerie's build is illegal, anomen lack of the wis needed to dual and so on.

    also the duals are really powerful builds but to do the whole saga and not only one of the games has always been problematic as the optimal level to dual in bg is too low for soa and dualing early in soa starting from that game mean to have a sub optimal dual at tob levels. a F9->M in tob will have only 1 point better thac0 of a pure mage (even if grand mastery gives some advantage).

    So i think that a Yoshimo that can dual at the pre sod level, so lev 7 or lev 8 thief depending if the soa starting xp or the bg1 cap is used and immediately gets the rest of the xp form the sod cap, being ready and powerful at the moment you find it is not the same of dualing him without importing from sod.
    no down time and a much higher level at the moment that .... you know what i mean, i don't want to spoil for the first time players.

    and you surely know that the more a character gain xp in his second class the more his difference of level compared to one that has only the second class as pure class is reduced, as the xp gain and the xp needed to level up are not linear.

    so i don't think that what you propose for a patch is to restore something that before it was possible, it is restoring that chance, but in a much powerful version. in a game that has already become more easy as the enemies also level up, but not to really catch up, the hardest quests of chap 2 are much harder if done as first quest of the chapter, every player knows it and do them after some easy quest, because those few 100k more xp make a real difference and make the game more easy.

    that told i think that to use the solution proposed by @jmerry or to use eekeeper are good ways for the players that like to dual a after sod yoshimo, to do it if a player likes it is a good thing as improves his fun.

    i often use eekeeper to modify the npcs, a kitted imoen, bounty hunter, assassin or swashbuckler, is an interesting option, i like very much a F->M nalia instead of a T->M one, a cernd with an other kit is really interesting, and why not a valigar archer and not stalker? i do those things, keeping their total stats and if needed minmaxing a little like in the case of nalia to make the dual possible and legittimate.
    i do it in a way that don't give too rp problems, a kitted anomen is not for me as he should chance kit as he change alignment and i can not see an aerie berseker or a neera that is anything then a wild mage or a dorn that is anything then a blackguard.

    so i don't have any problem if you want to have a yoshimo dualed at the level you like.
    i just don't think that the game should be patched that way, if a player want to do it he can do it in other ways, as i can have in other ways my different class or kit npcs, but is not something that has to be patched offically as what you propose makes yoshimo more powerful then how he was before sod for the reasons i explained before.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,041
    Minsc lost his Int and Wis only after leaving the character creation screen, in the context of his BG1 quest.
    Aerie's build is legal for her in-lore race, Avariel.

    Also, I do not see how Anomen should change kit after changing alignments. He follows Helm with all 3 alignments.
    You could make a case for him to lose all his clerical powers and having to start from scratch with a different God. But to just start as a high-level caster with a new patron would be weird.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited May 2019
    in lore the reasons you tell about are true, but as game mechanics they all are illegal builds according to the games rules.
    In game the elves are surface elves or drow, there are no surface elves sub races like the avariel, And there is not a permanent stat loosing for taking a physical damage, the healing spells restore the body (brain included) integrity, spells can even resurrect a dead body. And is not possible to dual into cleric with the low wisdom anomen has at the moment he do it.
    In all the cases the background stories are only a flavor reasons to justify an illegal build, a build that a player can not do for his charname without cheating.
    about anomen's alignment probably you are right, kitted clerics are tied to an alignment, but he is not kitted so the change is possible without consequences and without breaking the rules, he remains an illegal build for the illegal stats for dualing.

    But after all i don't think that this is so important for the topic of the thread, even if we have different opinions, mine based on the in game rules and your based on the lore, the game rules set that dualing all the not used xp in the first class is lost.
    Changing it for yoshimo only would be an other npc related exception to the game rules, this time without no lore background, but based on completely different premise, the fact that having him with a charname with less xp allow him to dual at a more profitable condition.
    Changing it as general rule would allow to keep the first class of a charname active without leveling him and as enough xp is reached dual him using the xp and having the dual complete at the moment is done. This is exactly what would happen for yoshimo if the game would be patched as the OP wishes.

    My opinion is that having the npc at different starting levels, form less then 90k xp starting in soa to the 500k importing from SoD, gives different conditions with pros and cons, and no exception to the rules should be done to make possible to keep only the positive side of a higher level party compared to the level the game was originally designed for.
    And after all it is only a personal opinion, not the truth about the matter...
    The OP can have a different opinion and this is perfectly fine, i only say that i disagree, that mine is different and i explain the reasons why. Reasons that for me are good ones but don't have to be good for everybody.

    If someone would open a poll about modifying the game in the proposed way i would vote no and the OP yes, but i don't have any problem if he uses an exploit to do what he likes in the game, as myself use exploits and eekeeper to do what i like.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,041
    True, having access to Heal and Regenerate, there is no reason why Minsc and Aerie should continue bearing the after-effects of their injuries.
    How cool would it be if Aerie could actually fly and provide Aeri[]al support. Do you think it would be possible to convince her to make airplane noises?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    surely not as airplanes don't exist in the fr so she ignores how the airplane noises are.
    but maybe she can poop on the enemies like the birds sometimes poop while airborne.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    True, having access to Heal and Regenerate, there is no reason why Minsc and Aerie should continue bearing the after-effects of their injuries.
    How cool would it be if Aerie could actually fly and provide Aeri[]al support. Do you think it would be possible to convince her to make airplane noises?

    Now that's a complicated ground you step on. We would have to consider three possible things :
    1-If you consider the "real, non-game oriented" forgotten realms (the one so many novels were written about) then such spells would be rare (as rare as a high level priest can be) and tremendously costly (not just gold, but difficult quests and such). Also, unlike BG games adventurers don't do a quest per day and reach level 20 in less than a year,not to mention that death would be a real deal so there are many factors to consider. In a novel those would be ultimate goals in a narrative arc.

    2-If they were PnP characters (like Minsc once was) Minsc would probably have been created by a player who didn't roll good stats for his ranger (insufficient wisdom) so the DM authorized it as long as he roleplayed his bad stats ,in other words he has those for the fluff and would never get back his wisdom 14 because he had never have it to begin with.

    Aerie would be even easier to explain: player wanted an avariel cleric/mage but DM didn't authorize a winged character ,so a creative player came up with a wingless background. If the DM felt that wings would unbalance the game then he would constantly point out that avariel's wings don't grow back without a true miracle ,wish or whatsoever.

    3-Now, considering that they're NPCs then it gets a little different. In SoA-ToB story arc their flaws make then interesting and believable , much more on Aerie than Minsc in my opinion.

  • WayniacWayniac Member Posts: 132
    Easy possible fix: auto-pause the game BEFORE applying xp when a new character joins the party. Everyone is happy this way, right?

    Recruit character, auto-pause, make your choices, unpause, receive xp, done. Everyone wins.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    @Wayniac i would greatly appreciate that fix, as it it is not an exception tied to a npc only, but a general rule.
    it gives to the player the freedom to let the game (the developers) choose what the npc did before being recruited or to chose it himself. this is as true for yoshimo and if and when he decide to dual, but is as true for the weapon proficiency pips of other npcs and other choices.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 2,314
    The option to auto-pause on character recruitment would also allow players to immediately adjust the character's equipment, AI, and all that. Newly recruited mages have a habit of immediately casting Stoneskin or other long-lasting defensive spells, when I'd rather set their AI to only cast spells manually.

    Hmm - feature request? It would be another option in the auto-pause option screen. It fits as something players would often pause for anyway, setting up a new character to be fully effective.

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