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Yoshimo, SoD and Dual-classing

Starting a BG2EE from SoD, I thought to maybe dual-class Yoshimo and get him started on his fighter levels early. With his high dexterity, he could actually be a solid tanky character. But instead, all the extra experience due to the higher level from SoD ended up vanishing.

I don't know if the team is still interested in patching BG2EE anymore, but it'd sure be nice to have this option available with Yoshimo. I know it's not the most critical of changes in the game. But right now, SoD players basically *have* to single-class Yoshimo as there's even less benefit to dualing him now. I think option to dual him and get that XP counted towards his fighter levels would add replay value to the game.

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Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    Why would the xp from SoD count for his fighter levels? He is awarded the xp as soon as he joins as a thief. It wouldn't make any sense for him to spontaneously get MORE xp upon dual classing. Besides, fighters level up fast and by level 3 as a fighter (he will reach this very quickly) he will be perfectly serviceable as a fighter.

    gorgonzola
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,095
    I was just looking through Yoshimo's BCS files to see how his level is handled, and I found an extremely vulgar variable name. What the heck, Beamdog?

    gorgonzolaSkatan
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Why would the xp from SoD count for his fighter levels? He is awarded the xp as soon as he joins as a thief. It wouldn't make any sense for him to spontaneously get MORE xp upon dual classing. Besides, fighters level up fast and by level 3 as a fighter (he will reach this very quickly) he will be perfectly serviceable as a fighter.

    Why make posts like this? It is not constructive at all.

    If Yoshimo is already starting with 500k committed to his thief levels, that means it's going to be a pretty long time before you unlock his dual status. Literally you are forced to level him up to fighter 13 before the unlock! That's almost 1.7 million experience. Meaning SoD players really don't get a viable Yoshimo Thief->Fighter option, even though that is literally how he was originally designed into the game.

    Again, the point is that players doing a SoD playthrough are ironically more *limited* in their viable options in BG2. I'll concede Yoshimo isn't a huge issue, but it's still something that undoubtedly would improve replayability of the series.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,095
    DinoDin wrote: »
    that is literally how he was originally designed into the game

    Do you have a source for that? It's not something I've ever heard before.

    ThacoBell
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    ThacoBell made a post like that because you treated the issue as a bug, and he explained to you why it is not a bug.
    Every change will come with lost options. But that does not mean that every change is a bug.

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 91
    joluv wrote: »
    I was just looking through Yoshimo's BCS files to see how his level is handled, and I found an extremely vulgar variable name. What the heck, Beamdog?
    You got me curious.

    Skatan
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,095
    Go look in YOSHIMO.BCS yourself, then. I don't want to break any forum rules.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,973
    I strongly disagree that Yoshimo was "literally designed to dual class" since there are no dialogues/banters whatsoever that indicates it. In fact , the way Yoshi is written constantly suggests that he avoids direct combat and is quite comfortable with his thief role in the party.

    That said , I understand your request fof replayability issues . Perhaps if they added an extra 2 or 3 seconds before leveling an npc you could dual him more easily.

  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 91
    edited May 6
    joluv wrote: »
    Go look in YOSHIMO.BCS yourself, then. I don't want to break any forum rules.

    I have no idea how to do that :)

    Does it happen to be the n-word?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    joluv wrote: »
    Go look in YOSHIMO.BCS yourself, then. I don't want to break any forum rules.

    i don't see how you can break any forums rules naming something that is in a game file, even if not immediately available to the players as you need a modding tool to see it.
    modding tool that every player, even the ones with the minimum age at with the game is rated, can use, and the use of modding tools is well tolerated and sponsored by the publisher, mode are what made this game so long lasting and interesting. we have a section with sub sections about modding on those forums.

    if there is some obscenity or profanity in the variable name it is only a developer's decision, you just tell us the name of the variable, in a situation where it can be useful for an other player to easily identify it.

    i suppose that if a moderator will ban you for that he should also ban the developer responsible for the name as your partner in crime :)

    but if you decide to tell us the variable name probably to ask to a moderator before in a pm is better...

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 640
    Can also confirm that I’ve never really thought about dualing Yoshimo: there’s a heck of a lot more functional warriors than there are functional thieves, and bounty hunter is one of the kits that scales really, really well later into the game. Losing the option sucks a little bit, but it’s not even a really good option in my opinion. Just my 2cp.

    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,448
    edited May 6
    DinoDin wrote: »
    If Yoshimo is already starting with 500k committed to his thief levels, that means it's going to be a pretty long time before you unlock his dual status. Literally you are forced to level him up to fighter 13 before the unlock! That's almost 1.7 million experience. Meaning SoD players really don't get a viable Yoshimo Thief->Fighter option, even though that is literally how he was originally designed into the game.

    Again, the point is that players doing a SoD playthrough are ironically more *limited* in their viable options in BG2.
    to start at 500k instead then 160k or the 89k i usually start with as i don't own sod and usually start directly in bg2 even if i own bg is surely different.

    but there is a positive side in it and a negative one.

    from the bright side even if some enemies level up with the party xp not all them do it, many bosses don't do it and i find much more easy to beat the leveled enemies with a party with 500k xp then the not leveled same ones with a party of less then 100K.

    from the dark side it is true that starting from 500k makes some early duals impossible importing from sod, but the dual can be done in sod for charname and i suppose also for the npcs that you can play in sod.
    (i don't want to be spoiled in any way about that game and this is the bg2 section so please respect my desire about it)
    and it makes to dual few soa npcs like joshimo longer, but there are very few single class soa npcs that have the stats to dual and are human.
    on contrary for dualing at high level (13 or more) a charname the xp you get from sod is a godsent gift, a player starting from sod has more then 400k xp more then i usually have, he will reach before me the point when the dual is complete and have more battles to fight with his super strong high level dual.

    so i don't think that the ones starting from sod are at disadvantage, they probably are in a better situation, that makes their game more easy, their high level duals need less time and their multi more capable right from the start.
    (a 500k jan is a fully operative thief thanks to his gear and the one you find in the game, a 100k jan has still a long way to go, a 500k aerie has much more casting power and choices and will be ready to kick butts mlee earlier as her buffs are level dependent, jaheira will reach before lev 13 to increase apr, will get ironskin and insect plague earlier and will have much better thac0 from the start, 3 points difference are a lot in early soa, she will miss a lot less so will be more effective).

    DJKajurudunbar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    Not sure why not getting Yoshimo at double exp means "not viable dual class." Fighters level extremely fast and Yoshimo will have the necessary prficiencies to be viable in, what, one dungeon?

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,973
    I agree with @gorgonzola , in fact I nerf SoD's XP cap to 160k (it doesnt make SoD any harder and helps balance SoA).

    gorgonzola
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 17,721
    edited May 7
    ButtPluggingCumBubble has always been in the game. Beamdog doesn't change original stuff.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
    Sxphxrxth
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    You seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying @gorgonzola . Again the thread was merely about an attempt to reestablish the dual possibility with Yoshimo. As it stands, someone who imports from a completed SoD game is unlikely to have that as a viable option. And yes, Yoshimo was clearly designed for the *option* of dualing him.

    Yes, obviously plenty of other NPC's and a main character are fine being imported from SoD. That's why this thread was only about Yoshimo. And again, as I've laid out in the math, there's simply not enough experience available in parts of SoA to make him viable as a thief->fighter for a SoD importer. I was only seeing if there was a possibility of Beamdog adding that option back in. I do greatly appreciate the workaround offered by @jmerry

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 640
    Um, I could be wrong and this could be mod-induced, but when I import a character to bg2 from SoD, all NPCs are given the 500k but aren’t leveled automatically: yoshimo would only be leveled to whatever 161k would be, and just gifted the extra 340k experience. This would allow for an immediate dual, if this is vanilla behavior.

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    So I thought this was true as well @Neverused . But if you dual Yoshimo before leveling him up, you will simply lose all the bonus experience. Which I suppose still makes him viable, but would make him greatly under-leveled relative to the rest of your party. Again, the real solution is what jmerry said about quickly dualing him before that extra experience is added.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 499
    It is completely WAI that if you earn XP as a thief and then dual-class to fighter, your fighter XP total is set to 0. The whole point of the dual-classing system is that you have to advance in your new class without using any of the abilities from your first class. If you want to use thief abilities to level up as a fighter, then a user-created multiclass character might be a better choice than Yoshimo.

    ThacoBell
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,095
    DinoDin wrote: »
    But if you dual Yoshimo before leveling him up, you will simply lose all the bonus experience. Which I suppose still makes him viable, but would make him greatly under-leveled relative to the rest of your party.

    This fact makes the whole complaint remarkably silly. The game already gives you the option to have Yoshimo exactly as he was before. If that's not enough for you, just give him more experience with the console.

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    It was a suggestion, not a complaint. Traditional BG2 players had the option of trying Yoshimo as a dual. SoD players can now only do so either cheating, cheesing, or by severely gimping Yoshimo. I'm not sure what's so absurd about suggesting that the option be restored?

    As I said, initially, it's not a huge priority. But I think it's a perfectly valid suggestion to *restore* an *option* that was available in the original series. It undeniably increases replay value of the series to have more options? And Yoshimo as a thief->fight can work supremely effectively given certain party compositions. But for plot reasons, that can't work if it requires 1.7M XP.

    Also, I just want to say that it's not constructive nor does it add to the community to make a post that essentially says "your idea is remarkably silly".

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    Again, I keep hearing that SoD boosted Yoshimo is not viable, or has been gimped. How? If anything, its easier to dual him now. He practically starts with enough xp to have all the skill points needed and can immediately be dualed. And because there is so much exp going around, even with the extra thief levels, he will catch up and get thief levels very quickly. Do like, two minor questlines.

    gorgonzola
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    I've already crunched the numbers for you ThacoBell in a previous post. You are free to read them, consult level caps for the original BG2 to give you a sense of the possible level max for finishing chapter 3. It is not viable to dual Yoshimo if he is already a level 12 thief. If you don't read my posts, why are you participating in this thread so much?

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    And to respond to a post you made above, it's literally untrue that "fighters level up fast". Fighters have the second slowest level progression of any class on the relevant levels we're talking about (8-12), behind only Paladin/Ranger. Please, do a quick double check of your information before hitting the post button.

    Balrog99
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,589
    @DinoDin Your numbers do nothing to explain what you see as "Viable" or "unviable", also remember, that's a level 1 fighter, so yes, it will level up fast. The SoD level cap is NOTHING to SoA. Its still very little downtime.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,095
    The exact same "*option*" that was available before is still available now. You're asking for Yoshimo's power to be increased even more -- and in a way that is different from how every other NPC's power has been increased -- compared to the original game.

    I deny that adding options always increases replay value. Game design is about making choices, not about giving unlimited options.

    When you are suggesting a silly change to the game, it is constructive to say that it is silly and explain why. Beamdog sometimes implements ideas suggested by fans, so bad ideas should not go unchallenged.

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,282
    edited May 10
    Guys, please, let's scale down the hostility.

    @DinoDin I do understand your request but as pointed earlier, you can work around it quite easily using the pause button or consoling the vanished experience after dualling him.

    I did understand your math and I agree with it; I also think that SoD's XP harms SoA a little bit.

    This, however, has a simple workaround and the devs already have a lot to juggle with. Also, I don't see exactly what could be done without touching the whole Level Up system - what would be a somehow hellish task that would absolutely break Pareto's Law.

    The easiest thing to be done, I suppose, is increasing the amount of time you'll have to press the Pause button and apply @jmerry 's solution.

    Here's a quick fix to make things easier. When Yoshimo joins the script will wait 10 seconds to give the XP boost. I think it is more than enough time to pause and Dual him.

    You may either run the .exe or just drop the .bcs inside your override folder (in case you're using a mobile device). I haven't tested it but I see no reason why it shouldn't work.

    Hope it helps.

    Post edited by Raduziel on
    gorgonzola
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 56
    Thanks Rad. I was already happy with jmerry's solution. I was simply didn't think the idea merited being called "silly" or just flat out rejected. Though, I do think for less adept players, having the built-in option would be nice. But I can understand if it'd be too much labor to implement.

    Raduziel
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,282
    @DinoDin The mod above is not a solution, just a way to make jmerry's solution easier to implement by expanding the time you have before the joining and the XP boost. :)

    gorgonzola
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