Finished Chapter 6, but a big plot hole...
Veristek
Member Posts: 114
I just finished Chapter 6, and killed Bodhi and her whole lair of vampires all over again. I quickly noticed two plot holes, one minor and one big one.
MINOR PLOT HOLE:
I fought the named vampires again. Del, Tanova, Hareidan, etc. I fought them in random encounters in Chapter 2, then they turned to gas clouds and ran off to the vampire lair to regenerate. In Chapter 3, I went in their lair to kill them all to do the favor for Shadow Thieves so the thieves would send me to Spellhold. I fought these named vampires there. Then I staked them in their 3 vampire coffins. At this point, Del, Parisa, Tancova, etc. should be permanently dead.
I sail to Brynclaw, and get ambushed by these SAME vampires again, even though they should have been dead permanently from the staking in Chapter 3. Killed them again, they turned into gas clouds and floated off probably 1000 miles back to Athkatha to their already-staked bodies. WTF?
In Chapter 6, I went in the vampire lair again and encountered these named vampires a FOURTH time (first time in random fights, second time in Chapter 3 raid, third time in Brynclaw ambush, and now this). I killed them all over again, and staked their VERY SAME crypts a second time.
Plot hole = Why do these named vampires come back from being staked? Staking is supposed to kill vampires permanently. The game even says this when you click on already-staked crypts. "The vampire is truly dead". So why would Del, Parisa, Tancova, etc. come back in Chapter 6 raid even though they should be staked permanently into dust back in Chapter 3?
MAJOR PLOT HOLE:
I had to stake Bodhi's crypt in Chapter 6. I explored the exact same area in Chapter 3. So why couldn't my party stake her in Chapter 3? What was the deal with that?
If I staked Bodhi in Chapter 3 in that same crypt basement room we go to in Chapter 6, then Imoen soul wouldn't go to Bodhi. She wouldn't steal romance interest, or cause more mayhem in Chapter 4, 5, and 6.
OTHER:
Why would Bodhi be so stupid to go back to that vampire lair? She didn't need to steal any more Shadow Thieves to have their life force power Irencius soul-stealing magic anymore. The city's organizations (Thieves, Paladins, etc.) know where the lair is by that time. CHARNAME and his party knows where the lair is too.
A smarter Bodhi would, y'know, go hide somewhere new. Or keep running / moving around with the lantern until Irencius finishes whatever he's doing to the Elven city. Set up a new vampire lair in one of the ruins, or move to Nashkel or even Baldur's Gate. Or go back to Brynclaw. Or somewhere else.
Curious what your thoughts are about these.
MINOR PLOT HOLE:
I fought the named vampires again. Del, Tanova, Hareidan, etc. I fought them in random encounters in Chapter 2, then they turned to gas clouds and ran off to the vampire lair to regenerate. In Chapter 3, I went in their lair to kill them all to do the favor for Shadow Thieves so the thieves would send me to Spellhold. I fought these named vampires there. Then I staked them in their 3 vampire coffins. At this point, Del, Parisa, Tancova, etc. should be permanently dead.
I sail to Brynclaw, and get ambushed by these SAME vampires again, even though they should have been dead permanently from the staking in Chapter 3. Killed them again, they turned into gas clouds and floated off probably 1000 miles back to Athkatha to their already-staked bodies. WTF?
In Chapter 6, I went in the vampire lair again and encountered these named vampires a FOURTH time (first time in random fights, second time in Chapter 3 raid, third time in Brynclaw ambush, and now this). I killed them all over again, and staked their VERY SAME crypts a second time.
Plot hole = Why do these named vampires come back from being staked? Staking is supposed to kill vampires permanently. The game even says this when you click on already-staked crypts. "The vampire is truly dead". So why would Del, Parisa, Tancova, etc. come back in Chapter 6 raid even though they should be staked permanently into dust back in Chapter 3?
MAJOR PLOT HOLE:
I had to stake Bodhi's crypt in Chapter 6. I explored the exact same area in Chapter 3. So why couldn't my party stake her in Chapter 3? What was the deal with that?
If I staked Bodhi in Chapter 3 in that same crypt basement room we go to in Chapter 6, then Imoen soul wouldn't go to Bodhi. She wouldn't steal romance interest, or cause more mayhem in Chapter 4, 5, and 6.
OTHER:
Why would Bodhi be so stupid to go back to that vampire lair? She didn't need to steal any more Shadow Thieves to have their life force power Irencius soul-stealing magic anymore. The city's organizations (Thieves, Paladins, etc.) know where the lair is by that time. CHARNAME and his party knows where the lair is too.
A smarter Bodhi would, y'know, go hide somewhere new. Or keep running / moving around with the lantern until Irencius finishes whatever he's doing to the Elven city. Set up a new vampire lair in one of the ruins, or move to Nashkel or even Baldur's Gate. Or go back to Brynclaw. Or somewhere else.
Curious what your thoughts are about these.
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Comments
Also, when you meet the vampires in Brynnlaw, there's some dialogue that indicates they must have a lair somewhere nearby - which you don't find.
If the coffins are unreachable, then how would these vampires exit them and get back into the fray with their human sized bodies? Assuming these coffins are hidden in collapsed tunnels or crypts, or in places only accessible through tiny 1 or 2 inch diameter tunnels that only gas or liquid can flow through, then how would the vampires get out of their coffins with healed human sized bodies and then get back to the lair proper or accessible areas?
If the vampires can Dimension Door from their coffins to where they need to go, why can't CHARNAME or his party mages do the same? Dimension Door to the vampire coffins and stake them all? I find it silly how almost every mage or important characters can Dimension Door, but CHARNAME and his party can't. CHARNAME and his party can learn level 8 and 9 spells that very few enemy mages can learn, while enemy mages or characters not high level enough for level 6+ spells can still Dimension Door. What gives?
Why are there way more stakes than is needed? By my count, we need 7 stakes. 3 to do the 3 coffins in Chapter 3, then 4 more for Chapter 6 (same 3 coffins + Bodhi coffin). Yet I have 10 spare stakes after using 7. A merchant in Trademeet had 2, and the rest were from chests or quest givers. That's at least 17 total stakes when you only need 7. Does that mean there's more vampire coffins to stake somewhere I didn't know about?
Maybe I'm overthinking things too much.
Yep, or anywhere else, for that matter. Pretty much anywhere in the world would have been better than the very place where Charname was guaranteed to go looking for her.
They didn't because those hypothesized coffins simply don't exist. If they existed, you could detect them using spells like Farsight, but you can't, meaning they're not there. So the point of the OP stands.
Not really. This game is supposed to simulate a world that exists independently of your presence, full of people or things that are there regardless of whether you need them or not. There are many stakes because you're in a city, and cities are full of all sorts of stuff, including stakes. Apart from that, from a gameplay point of view, it's quite convenient to have many more stakes than you actually need. It means that you're not going to be stuck in quest X because you just forgot to check the random chest where one of the stacks you needed was located.
Not being able to use Dimension Door like NPC's is of course neccessary for the story, but I know what you mean. Near the end of ToB a mage CHARNAME is a walking legend. Quite literally, since they still have to walk everywhere. Meanwhile F/M Saemon Havarian (who is what? lvl 12?) can teleport an entire group of people out of Spellhold, past the magical wards that are designed to keep wizards in. I call BS on that one.
Chapter 2 random ecounters: Hareishan, Parisa, Salia, Tancova, Del
Chapter 3 Lair: Tanova, Gellal, Lassal, Durst, (Bodhi)
Chapter 4: Del, Parisa, Valen, (Bodhi)
Chapter 6: Del, Valen, Hareishan, Tanova, Salia, Meredath, (Bodhi)
In Chapter 3, Aran Linvail gives you 4 wooden stakes even though you only need 3 at that point. Then you find a couple in the chests in the Lower Tombs, either in Chapters 2 or 3. We get a few more from Elhan in Chapter 6, plus a few here and there in Chapters 4 and 5.
If you hold on to those batches, you can ignore all other stakes and holy water.
As for the vampires, their parents lacked creativity. Please forgive them.
Bodhi knows you're coming. She's toying with you, secure in her "immortality". Leaving just enough of her vampires vulnerable so you think you've won while having others get away or simply not be there to fight you - that's very much the sort of thing she'd do.
IF OR(2) Dead("lassal02") // Lassal HPLT("lassal02",2) // Lassal THEN RESPONSE #100 OpenDoor("DOOR05") TriggerActivation("Coffin3",TRUE) END IF OR(2) Dead("bodvam01") // Durst HPLT("bodvam01",2) // Durst THEN RESPONSE #100 OpenDoor("DOOR04") TriggerActivation("Coffin2",TRUE) END IF OR(2) Dead("bodvam02") // Gellal HPLT("bodvam02",2) // Gellal THEN RESPONSE #100 OpenDoor("DOOR05") TriggerActivation("Coffin1",TRUE) ENDJmerry, toying but incredibly stupid. At end of Chapter 2, Bodhi shows you her hideout before you decide whether to side with her or not. You'd give valuable intel to Shadow Thieves and tell them "Hey, Bodhi's hideout is right there in that building in the Graveyard District". A smart vampire overlord wouldn't reveal their hideout like that.
Then she sets up shop in that very same lair in Chapter 6, after witnessing CHARNAME's Slayer form and incredible power even though CHARNAME was "de-souled". She knows her vampires can't do shit to CHARNAME and the party. These vampires failed to stop CHARNAME in Chapters 2, 3, and 4. The Shadow Thieves and other Amn powers by this point know about Bodhi and her lair, so they can swarm the lair and stake all the coffins CHARNAME doesn't see. "Hey Cowled Wizzies, teleport our guards into these inaccessible crypt chambers to stake these vampires" or "Hey Shadow Thieves, stalk these vampires to find each and every one of their coffins. Backstab kill them right there, then stake them!".
So Bodhi should be looking for someplace entirely new to hide herself and the lantern, or keep moving around and around erratically. Doing that, Irencius can nuke the Elven city without interference from CHARNAME cuz no lantern for CHARNAME. Then Bodhi and Irencius dimension door to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away, meaning "de-souled" CHARNAME and Imoen would die from no soul before they reach Irencius and Bodhi.
But nope. Bodhi had to be incompetent. Perfect for CHARNAME, bad for her and Irencius.
I don't think the decision is anything like as straightforward as you suggest. Up to this point Bodhi has not revealed her full powers to Charname and she does have a realistic chance of success in that fight (as many no-reloaders will testify
There's also the issue about whether she would be better off on other ground. In her stronghold she has access to numerous vampires, traps and other magic supporting her defense and attack. Moving elsewhere she might be able to evade discovery, but also might not - given the possibility of divination being used against her. In the latter event she would then have to fight anyway, but at a severe disadvantage. In the light of that it again seems entirely reasonable to me that she would choose to stay in familiar surroundings.
She escapes every battle up to this point. She can just teleport out like usual when near death, and then force CHARNAME to kill romance interest. Then no Bodhi heart = no revive of vampiric romantic interest. Bodhi is capable of teleporting between the two locations. Even the swindler captain teleports himself to land while his ship is in the middle of the ocean being attacked by Gith and Sahagin.
If CHARNAME can teleport too, Bodhi can teleport away then morph into a vampire bat and fly off holding the lantern.
A better way to close this plot hole would to have the churches or even Cowled Wizards cast a "anti-teleportation field" over Bodhi's lair so she can't escape-teleport to Spellhold again whenever she starts losing the battle to CHARNAME, or give some reason why Bodhi needs that lair like an unique pool of blood or something she must have for sustenance that she cannot get anywhere else, or a combination of the two.
Personally, smart villains would make for much better stories than incompetent villains who are always predictably stomped by the hero in the end.
If you say "what if...." enough times you can find a plot hole in any story.
Looks like Del, Valen, and Tanova. Their mists trigger the coffins.
Probably the main plot hole is when Irenicus, after has stolen the 2 souls he needs and has you and your party completely without defense, ask her sister to kill you instead of doing it himself.
He should know well Bodhi, is his sister, so should perfectly know that her true alignment is not CE, but IE (idiotic evil
Or at least he should have suspected it when he finds that all your very valuable equipment has mysteriously disappeared, as bodhi give it back to you for her game, and come to kill you himself in the maze.
Irenicus is arrogant and well conscious of his power, but is really good at planning and carry over complex plans, no way that he can overlook such things...
If i remember correctly 1 more vampire has to be killed and staked in bg2, Dace, that is not directly associated to the Bodhi's vampire line.
With Jon in Spellhold, it's that his goal was never really CHARNAME: the soul was just a means to an end, and in his arrogance he thinks that CHARNAME is no longer a threat to him. Think of his lines in the cutscenes: to an entire organization of mages, he simply states "I cannot be contained! I cannot be controlled!" Or in the very first scene, being told the entire Shadow Thief guild is attacking, "This will only be a slight delay." It would be more out of line for Jon to treat CHARNAME as some huge threat that he guarantees an execute against: CHARNAME is little more than a pest whose soul he's successfully devoured, and a plaything for Bodhi to hunt at her leisure.
I agree that if Sarevok were the villain, this would be holding the idiot-ball: Sarevok is shown to be conniving and someone who continually sends assassins and entire groups to try to end CHARNAME. He's legitimately scared of what would happen if Gorion's Ward manages to come into the fulness of Bhaal's legacy, mainly because of the prophecy. If Sarevok didn't try to kill CHARNAME or have CHARNAME thoroughly executed when in his power, that would be a plot hole. But Irenicus treating CHARNAME as harmless as an insect? Well, that's just who Irenicus is, and that's what leads to his downfall.
In chapters 2 and 3, various random vampire encounters may range from relatively easy (Del or Parisa) to mighty tough (Hareishan and Tanova). Even if you win these, you don't get to stake them, only defeat them in the street, they escape by floating away in mist form.
In chapter 3, the three vampires you get to stake are Gellal, Lassal and Durst - whom you MAY have encountered in the street (Lassal is the one who killed Aran Linvail's minion, Mook, at the docks). These three will be permanently destroyed. You can encounter Tanova, but not stake her even if you kill her, she has no coffin here.
In chapter 4, the three vampires that you get to meet are not the same ones - they are Del, Parisa (whom you may have met in a random encounter in the street) and Valen (who you definitely HAVE met before - but not as a vampire: you met her as a Shadow Thief in Bodhi's service, she has evidently been turned since then.) You kill them in the street, but cannot stake them. However, Del and Parisa are never seen again.
In chapter 6... You get to stake 3 more vampires - Salia, Meredath and Hareishan (any or all of whom you may have met in random encounters in chapter 2). If you've recruited Drizzt and his friends, he will show up in the big northern chamber with a blood pool, which contains a couple of these. You will also encounter Tanova, the most powerful vampire in there apart from Bodhi herself: and she is a tough fight if you are alone, but if you've got the Shadow Thieves to help you out, they may very well do her some damage or even kill her (they enter through the original entrance from the main tombs: you enter through a side entrance, as do the Order of the Radiant Heart if you recruited them). Once again, you don't get to stake her.
She didn´t expect you to return at all from Spellhold, nor to follow her or Iren into Underdark - that´s why the lack of security.
Bat form. I don´t know the ad&d 2nd specifics, but I´d well imagine all vampires had access to bat form, and with that, places that most land-walkers wouldn´t ever consider investigating, since we´d expect to locate them underground.
Just maybe they tested it and found out DD allows players to skip intended plot obstacles.
I´ve always carried few extras, just in case, but I remember having had a sense of dread with the extras, since it would imply not all, or even most vampires were staked.