Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Finished Chapter 6, but a big plot hole...

I just finished Chapter 6, and killed Bodhi and her whole lair of vampires all over again. I quickly noticed two plot holes, one minor and one big one.

MINOR PLOT HOLE:

I fought the named vampires again. Del, Tanova, Hareidan, etc. I fought them in random encounters in Chapter 2, then they turned to gas clouds and ran off to the vampire lair to regenerate. In Chapter 3, I went in their lair to kill them all to do the favor for Shadow Thieves so the thieves would send me to Spellhold. I fought these named vampires there. Then I staked them in their 3 vampire coffins. At this point, Del, Parisa, Tancova, etc. should be permanently dead.

I sail to Brynclaw, and get ambushed by these SAME vampires again, even though they should have been dead permanently from the staking in Chapter 3. Killed them again, they turned into gas clouds and floated off probably 1000 miles back to Athkatha to their already-staked bodies. WTF?

In Chapter 6, I went in the vampire lair again and encountered these named vampires a FOURTH time (first time in random fights, second time in Chapter 3 raid, third time in Brynclaw ambush, and now this). I killed them all over again, and staked their VERY SAME crypts a second time.

Plot hole = Why do these named vampires come back from being staked? Staking is supposed to kill vampires permanently. The game even says this when you click on already-staked crypts. "The vampire is truly dead". So why would Del, Parisa, Tancova, etc. come back in Chapter 6 raid even though they should be staked permanently into dust back in Chapter 3?

MAJOR PLOT HOLE:

I had to stake Bodhi's crypt in Chapter 6. I explored the exact same area in Chapter 3. So why couldn't my party stake her in Chapter 3? What was the deal with that?

If I staked Bodhi in Chapter 3 in that same crypt basement room we go to in Chapter 6, then Imoen soul wouldn't go to Bodhi. She wouldn't steal romance interest, or cause more mayhem in Chapter 4, 5, and 6.

OTHER:

Why would Bodhi be so stupid to go back to that vampire lair? She didn't need to steal any more Shadow Thieves to have their life force power Irencius soul-stealing magic anymore. The city's organizations (Thieves, Paladins, etc.) know where the lair is by that time. CHARNAME and his party knows where the lair is too.

A smarter Bodhi would, y'know, go hide somewhere new. Or keep running / moving around with the lantern until Irencius finishes whatever he's doing to the Elven city. Set up a new vampire lair in one of the ruins, or move to Nashkel or even Baldur's Gate. Or go back to Brynclaw. Or somewhere else.

Curious what your thoughts are about these.

Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,002
    I had to stake Bodhi's crypt in Chapter 6. I explored the exact same area in Chapter 3. So why couldn't my party stake her in Chapter 3? What was the deal with that?
    Um, she’s not ‘dead’ therefore her body wouldn’t be inside her coffin?

    ThacoBellgorgonzolaCalmar
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 105
    There are a number of mook vampires in that lair the first time through, and only three coffins you can reach to stake. The last coffin (the first time around) belongs to Lassal, but the first two? They could be any of the vampires you ran into, including the mooks. Who's to say the named vampires didn't just flee through a hole somewhere to coffins you didn't find?

    Also, when you meet the vampires in Brynnlaw, there's some dialogue that indicates they must have a lair somewhere nearby - which you don't find.

  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    If that's indeed true that there's hidden and unreachable vampire coffins in that crypt area to house those named and unnamed vampires, then that begs the question. Why didn't Bodhi just hide her body and the lantern in such an unreachable coffin? That would have been the smart thing to do, especially if it buys Irencius the time to carry out his plans while CHARNAME or other heroes try to tunnel or dig into that unreachable coffin area for the lantern.

    If the coffins are unreachable, then how would these vampires exit them and get back into the fray with their human sized bodies? Assuming these coffins are hidden in collapsed tunnels or crypts, or in places only accessible through tiny 1 or 2 inch diameter tunnels that only gas or liquid can flow through, then how would the vampires get out of their coffins with healed human sized bodies and then get back to the lair proper or accessible areas?

    If the vampires can Dimension Door from their coffins to where they need to go, why can't CHARNAME or his party mages do the same? Dimension Door to the vampire coffins and stake them all? I find it silly how almost every mage or important characters can Dimension Door, but CHARNAME and his party can't. CHARNAME and his party can learn level 8 and 9 spells that very few enemy mages can learn, while enemy mages or characters not high level enough for level 6+ spells can still Dimension Door. What gives?

    Why are there way more stakes than is needed? By my count, we need 7 stakes. 3 to do the 3 coffins in Chapter 3, then 4 more for Chapter 6 (same 3 coffins + Bodhi coffin). Yet I have 10 spare stakes after using 7. A merchant in Trademeet had 2, and the rest were from chests or quest givers. That's at least 17 total stakes when you only need 7. Does that mean there's more vampire coffins to stake somewhere I didn't know about?

    Maybe I'm overthinking things too much.

    gorgonzola
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 703
    For the most part I agree with you. I tend to be quite disappointed by the huge plot holes in stories which are otherwise excellent, be it Alien, Breaking Bad, or Baldur's Gate.
    Veristek wrote: »
    If that's indeed true that there's hidden and unreachable vampire coffins in that crypt area to house those named and unnamed vampires, then that begs the question. Why didn't Bodhi just hide her body and the lantern in such an unreachable coffin?
    Yep, or anywhere else, for that matter. Pretty much anywhere in the world would have been better than the very place where Charname was guaranteed to go looking for her.
    jmerry wrote: »
    Who's to say the named vampires didn't just flee through a hole somewhere to coffins you didn't find?
    They didn't because those hypothesized coffins simply don't exist. If they existed, you could detect them using spells like Farsight, but you can't, meaning they're not there. So the point of the OP stands.
    Veristek wrote: »
    Why are there way more stakes than is needed? By my count, we need 7 stakes. 3 to do the 3 coffins in Chapter 3, then 4 more for Chapter 6 (same 3 coffins + Bodhi coffin). Yet I have 10 spare stakes after using 7. A merchant in Trademeet had 2, and the rest were from chests or quest givers. That's at least 17 total stakes when you only need 7. Does that mean there's more vampire coffins to stake somewhere I didn't know about?
    Not really. This game is supposed to simulate a world that exists independently of your presence, full of people or things that are there regardless of whether you need them or not. There are many stakes because you're in a city, and cities are full of all sorts of stuff, including stakes. Apart from that, from a gameplay point of view, it's quite convenient to have many more stakes than you actually need. It means that you're not going to be stuck in quest X because you just forgot to check the random chest where one of the stacks you needed was located.

    DJKajurugorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,058
    You couldn't stake Bohdi in chapter 2 because she wasn't in her coffin. You don't damager her down to her gaseous form, she just leaves. If I recall correctly, the feldgling vampires don't become mist, they just die when you kill them. I'm not sure about the named vampires though. Are you sure they are the same vampires from chapter 2 that were staked? I seem to recall there being more named vampires than coffins available.

    gorgonzola
  • Gatekeep3rGatekeep3r Member Posts: 123
    edited May 7
    Veristek wrote: »
    If that's indeed true that there's hidden and unreachable vampire coffins in that crypt area to house those named and unnamed vampires, then that begs the question. Why didn't Bodhi just hide her body and the lantern in such an unreachable coffin? That would have been the smart thing to do, especially if it buys Irencius the time to carry out his plans while CHARNAME or other heroes try to tunnel or dig into that unreachable coffin area for the lantern.

    If the coffins are unreachable, then how would these vampires exit them and get back into the fray with their human sized bodies? Assuming these coffins are hidden in collapsed tunnels or crypts, or in places only accessible through tiny 1 or 2 inch diameter tunnels that only gas or liquid can flow through, then how would the vampires get out of their coffins with healed human sized bodies and then get back to the lair proper or accessible areas?

    If the vampires can Dimension Door from their coffins to where they need to go, why can't CHARNAME or his party mages do the same? Dimension Door to the vampire coffins and stake them all? I find it silly how almost every mage or important characters can Dimension Door, but CHARNAME and his party can't. CHARNAME and his party can learn level 8 and 9 spells that very few enemy mages can learn, while enemy mages or characters not high level enough for level 6+ spells can still Dimension Door. What gives?

    Why are there way more stakes than is needed? By my count, we need 7 stakes. 3 to do the 3 coffins in Chapter 3, then 4 more for Chapter 6 (same 3 coffins + Bodhi coffin). Yet I have 10 spare stakes after using 7. A merchant in Trademeet had 2, and the rest were from chests or quest givers. That's at least 17 total stakes when you only need 7. Does that mean there's more vampire coffins to stake somewhere I didn't know about?

    Maybe I'm overthinking things too much.

    Not being able to use Dimension Door like NPC's is of course neccessary for the story, but I know what you mean. Near the end of ToB a mage CHARNAME is a walking legend. Quite literally, since they still have to walk everywhere. Meanwhile F/M Saemon Havarian (who is what? lvl 12?) can teleport an entire group of people out of Spellhold, past the magical wards that are designed to keep wizards in. I call BS on that one.

    Alonsogorgonzola
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 641
    If Bodhi were completely rational, and dedicated only to survival, the question about her coffin would make sense and be an actual plot hole. But she's portrayed as believing herself to be undefeatable, the only thing that she was worried about being the Slayer form. Everything is a game to her at this point: she has a soul for the first time since her undeath, she controls the lover of CHARNAME if one exists, and she's certain of her victory. She has no plan for her defeat, because she doesn't believe she can actually be defeated by CHARNAME. It's not a plothole, it's who she is: if Jon didn't have a backup plan, the conniving planner, that would be a plot hole, but Bodhi bases her actions a lot more on emotions and feelings, so her actions don't generally consider defeat when she's in a position of supreme power.

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    Went back to my save games to check. Named vampires by my count.

    Chapter 2 random ecounters: Hareishan, Parisa, Salia, Tancova, Del

    Chapter 3 Lair: Tanova, Gellal, Lassal, Durst, (Bodhi)

    Chapter 4: Del, Parisa, Valen, (Bodhi)

    Chapter 6: Del, Valen, Hareishan, Tanova, Salia, Meredath, (Bodhi)

    In Chapter 3, Aran Linvail gives you 4 wooden stakes even though you only need 3 at that point. Then you find a couple in the chests in the Lower Tombs, either in Chapters 2 or 3. We get a few more from Elhan in Chapter 6, plus a few here and there in Chapters 4 and 5.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    The number of stakes and holy water that people give you as part of the plot is actually exactly the number you can use within the vanilla game.
    If you hold on to those batches, you can ignore all other stakes and holy water.

    As for the vampires, their parents lacked creativity. Please forgive them.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 903
    @Humanoid_Taifun
    Bodhi run out of ideas how to name her characters vamps. :D

    ElysianEchoesThacoBellAlonsogorgonzola
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 105
    Based on those lists of vampires you've provided, I'm willing to say that, in canon, the three vampires staked the first time through are Durst, Gellal, and Lassal. Tanova gets away, presumably to a coffin hidden elsewhere, and may or may not be staked the second time through.

    Bodhi knows you're coming. She's toying with you, secure in her "immortality". Leaving just enough of her vampires vulnerable so you think you've won while having others get away or simply not be there to fight you - that's very much the sort of thing she'd do.

    joluvThacoBell
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,101
    Yes, it's Durst, Gellal, and Lassal. This is the script that controls whether those coffins can be staked.
    IF
    	OR(2)
    		Dead("lassal02")  // Lassal
    		HPLT("lassal02",2)  // Lassal
    THEN
    	RESPONSE #100
    		OpenDoor("DOOR05")
    		TriggerActivation("Coffin3",TRUE)
    END
    
    IF
    	OR(2)
    		Dead("bodvam01")  // Durst
    		HPLT("bodvam01",2)  // Durst
    THEN
    	RESPONSE #100
    		OpenDoor("DOOR04")
    		TriggerActivation("Coffin2",TRUE)
    END
    
    IF
    	OR(2)
    		Dead("bodvam02")  // Gellal
    		HPLT("bodvam02",2)  // Gellal
    THEN
    	RESPONSE #100
    		OpenDoor("DOOR05")
    		TriggerActivation("Coffin1",TRUE)
    END
    

    ThacoBellleeuxgorgonzola
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    Joluv, can you find out which 3 vampires get staked in Chapter 6?

    Jmerry, toying but incredibly stupid. At end of Chapter 2, Bodhi shows you her hideout before you decide whether to side with her or not. You'd give valuable intel to Shadow Thieves and tell them "Hey, Bodhi's hideout is right there in that building in the Graveyard District". A smart vampire overlord wouldn't reveal their hideout like that.

    Then she sets up shop in that very same lair in Chapter 6, after witnessing CHARNAME's Slayer form and incredible power even though CHARNAME was "de-souled". She knows her vampires can't do shit to CHARNAME and the party. These vampires failed to stop CHARNAME in Chapters 2, 3, and 4. The Shadow Thieves and other Amn powers by this point know about Bodhi and her lair, so they can swarm the lair and stake all the coffins CHARNAME doesn't see. "Hey Cowled Wizzies, teleport our guards into these inaccessible crypt chambers to stake these vampires" or "Hey Shadow Thieves, stalk these vampires to find each and every one of their coffins. Backstab kill them right there, then stake them!".

    So Bodhi should be looking for someplace entirely new to hide herself and the lantern, or keep moving around and around erratically. Doing that, Irencius can nuke the Elven city without interference from CHARNAME cuz no lantern for CHARNAME. Then Bodhi and Irencius dimension door to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away, meaning "de-souled" CHARNAME and Imoen would die from no soul before they reach Irencius and Bodhi.

    But nope. Bodhi had to be incompetent. Perfect for CHARNAME, bad for her and Irencius.

    Alonso
  • AlonsoAlonso Member Posts: 703
    Yeah, it's a typical case of "the plot follows this line for the simple reason that otherwise the game coudn't go on", aka poor writing. I'm not criticizing the game here, it's a masterpiece and it has been my favourite game for ages. I'm just acknowledging it's not perfect, and this and a few other parts of the plot are quite lame.

    gorgonzola
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,148
    Veristek wrote: »
    Joluv, can you find out which 3 vampires get staked in Chapter 6?

    Jmerry, toying but incredibly stupid. At end of Chapter 2, Bodhi shows you her hideout before you decide whether to side with her or not. You'd give valuable intel to Shadow Thieves and tell them "Hey, Bodhi's hideout is right there in that building in the Graveyard District". A smart vampire overlord wouldn't reveal their hideout like that.

    Then she sets up shop in that very same lair in Chapter 6, after witnessing CHARNAME's Slayer form and incredible power even though CHARNAME was "de-souled". She knows her vampires can't do shit to CHARNAME and the party. These vampires failed to stop CHARNAME in Chapters 2, 3, and 4. The Shadow Thieves and other Amn powers by this point know about Bodhi and her lair, so they can swarm the lair and stake all the coffins CHARNAME doesn't see. "Hey Cowled Wizzies, teleport our guards into these inaccessible crypt chambers to stake these vampires" or "Hey Shadow Thieves, stalk these vampires to find each and every one of their coffins. Backstab kill them right there, then stake them!".

    So Bodhi should be looking for someplace entirely new to hide herself and the lantern, or keep moving around and around erratically. Doing that, Irencius can nuke the Elven city without interference from CHARNAME cuz no lantern for CHARNAME. Then Bodhi and Irencius dimension door to somewhere hundreds or thousands of miles away, meaning "de-souled" CHARNAME and Imoen would die from no soul before they reach Irencius and Bodhi.

    But nope. Bodhi had to be incompetent. Perfect for CHARNAME, bad for her and Irencius.

    I don't think the decision is anything like as straightforward as you suggest. Up to this point Bodhi has not revealed her full powers to Charname and she does have a realistic chance of success in that fight (as many no-reloaders will testify ;)). Combine that with the inherent tendency for evil villains to overestimate themselves and underestimate the opposition and it seems perfectly reasonable for Bodhi to accept the fight.

    There's also the issue about whether she would be better off on other ground. In her stronghold she has access to numerous vampires, traps and other magic supporting her defense and attack. Moving elsewhere she might be able to evade discovery, but also might not - given the possibility of divination being used against her. In the latter event she would then have to fight anyway, but at a severe disadvantage. In the light of that it again seems entirely reasonable to me that she would choose to stay in familiar surroundings.

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • VeristekVeristek Member Posts: 114
    edited May 8
    Grond0, Bodhi could just teleport back to Spellhold. Even if CHARNAME or his allies could divine where she went, they would need to get a new ship, sail over to Spellhold, and Bodhi goes "Hahaha" and teleport back to Athkatha or back into Underdark through Irencius portal. This would cost CHARNAME time, probably weeks. In-universe, that's more than plenty of time for Irencius to finish his stuff in the Elven city and become a god, and time runs out for CHARNAME's life without his soul.

    She escapes every battle up to this point. She can just teleport out like usual when near death, and then force CHARNAME to kill romance interest. Then no Bodhi heart = no revive of vampiric romantic interest. Bodhi is capable of teleporting between the two locations. Even the swindler captain teleports himself to land while his ship is in the middle of the ocean being attacked by Gith and Sahagin.

    If CHARNAME can teleport too, Bodhi can teleport away then morph into a vampire bat and fly off holding the lantern.

    A better way to close this plot hole would to have the churches or even Cowled Wizards cast a "anti-teleportation field" over Bodhi's lair so she can't escape-teleport to Spellhold again whenever she starts losing the battle to CHARNAME, or give some reason why Bodhi needs that lair like an unique pool of blood or something she must have for sustenance that she cannot get anywhere else, or a combination of the two.

    Personally, smart villains would make for much better stories than incompetent villains who are always predictably stomped by the hero in the end.

    Alonso
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,436
    "Suspension of disbelief".
    If you say "what if...." enough times you can find a plot hole in any story.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,101
    Veristek wrote: »
    Joluv, can you find out which 3 vampires get staked in Chapter 6?

    Looks like Del, Valen, and Tanova. Their mists trigger the coffins.

    Neverused
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,600
    There are plenty of plot holes in bg2, and still is a fantastic game.
    Probably the main plot hole is when Irenicus, after has stolen the 2 souls he needs and has you and your party completely without defense, ask her sister to kill you instead of doing it himself.
    He should know well Bodhi, is his sister, so should perfectly know that her true alignment is not CE, but IE (idiotic evil :) ) and suspect that she instead of doing what he told her to do would decide to play a little with her preys like a cat sometimes do with a captured mouse...
    Or at least he should have suspected it when he finds that all your very valuable equipment has mysteriously disappeared, as bodhi give it back to you for her game, and come to kill you himself in the maze.

    Irenicus is arrogant and well conscious of his power, but is really good at planning and carry over complex plans, no way that he can overlook such things...

    Alonso
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,600
    There are more stakes then you need in the game, but no where is told that you kill all the vampires of Amn. So even if the redundancy is to allow a player that misses some stake to complete the game there is no plot hole here.
    If i remember correctly 1 more vampire has to be killed and staked in bg2, Dace, that is not directly associated to the Bodhi's vampire line.

  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 180
    Whenever I see Del, I think to myself Mangetout Rodney, mangetout

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 641
    A distinction really needs to be made between plot holes and character flaws. Plot holes are the things that literally make no sense, or a character goes against their characterization to make a mistake. Neither Irenicus or Bodhi show this though: their mistakes are driven by their characterizations.

    With Jon in Spellhold, it's that his goal was never really CHARNAME: the soul was just a means to an end, and in his arrogance he thinks that CHARNAME is no longer a threat to him. Think of his lines in the cutscenes: to an entire organization of mages, he simply states "I cannot be contained! I cannot be controlled!" Or in the very first scene, being told the entire Shadow Thief guild is attacking, "This will only be a slight delay." It would be more out of line for Jon to treat CHARNAME as some huge threat that he guarantees an execute against: CHARNAME is little more than a pest whose soul he's successfully devoured, and a plaything for Bodhi to hunt at her leisure.

    I agree that if Sarevok were the villain, this would be holding the idiot-ball: Sarevok is shown to be conniving and someone who continually sends assassins and entire groups to try to end CHARNAME. He's legitimately scared of what would happen if Gorion's Ward manages to come into the fulness of Bhaal's legacy, mainly because of the prophecy. If Sarevok didn't try to kill CHARNAME or have CHARNAME thoroughly executed when in his power, that would be a plot hole. But Irenicus treating CHARNAME as harmless as an insect? Well, that's just who Irenicus is, and that's what leads to his downfall.

    jasteyThacoBellGrond0gorgonzola
Sign In or Register to comment.